FGW Buy before you board policy

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe not but my views on whether you should use a card with a card only TVM have been aired before and wont change even if yorkie says he has had confirmation of this for someone at ATOc but will not reveal the source or certified quote, so we'll have to take that as it comes. Remember not having money on your card is different from not wanting to use your card. Some of you seem to not realise this.

You state this as fact, I disagree with you. The railway says cash is accepted. What else I happen to have is irrelevant. I won't even produce anything else to any inspector, as it's none of his business and he has no rights to conduct a search. If I wish to pay cash and I have not been offered an opportunity to do so on reaching the barrier, I will produce the fare in cash. Nothing else is relevant.

I would love to see this in Court. I am pretty confident the TOC would lose. Shame I don't have time.

Neil

 

[RPI]

Using the Hanborugh example above, as an RPI myself, I would be asking why the customer had not bought one from the conductor on the train, as every train on that route has one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, as regards requiring people to use cards, there are numerous other threads bemoaning TOC's NOT accepting cards, and posters saying it is unreasonable to expect people to carry cash.

If a TOC advertises a method of payment, it is unreasonable to expect a passenger to plan to be able to/wish to use a different method of payment just because the TOC will not provide a functional means of accepting it.

If they don't wish to accept cash, it should be made VERY clear that this is the case before boarding. At minimum this would in my view be posters of the same level of prominence as Penalty Fares Area posters are required to have.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

If I choose to leave my cards at home, knowing that the tvm at my local station is card only, have I walked past "an opportunity to buy".

As for "refusing to pay", if I have the crisp twenty in my hand at the first opportunity then I'm not refusing to pay anything. It's not the passenger's problem if the toc reckons the cost of installing cash tvms outweighs the benefit.

If tocs don't want to accept cash they can change their ticketing rules, like London Buses did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using the Hanborugh example above, as an RPI myself, I would be asking why the customer had not bought one from the conductor on the train, as every train on that route has one.

Given how many conductors fail to do their job correctly / have broken ticket machines, "the conductor didn't come through" is a likely reason. OTOH, you would know that was not the case if others came through with tickets issued from that conductor's machine, which I'm sure would be easy to verify.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for "refusing to pay", if I have the crisp twenty in my hand at the first opportunity then I'm not refusing to pay anything. It's not the passenger's problem if the toc reckons the cost of installing cash tvms outweighs the benefit.

That, or if they do wish to cease accepting cash they should follow the due process to change their franchise agreement such that cash is no longer accepted in any form, or such that it is stated clearly that if you wish to pay cash you must do so by another mechanism, such as PayPoint, ticket office etc.

It *cannot* be arbitrary and inconsistent. It is either a valid method of payment or it is not. Or you make the rule Metrolink-like - you must buy a ticket before travel *regardless of the method available to do so* - i.e. ticket machine broken = station closed unless you ring Customer Services and get a code. Whatever the rule is, it must be clearly stated in a prominent location that a passenger cannot avoid seeing before they board.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

My card has 4p credit balance on it, but I've a £1000 overdraft (untouched). Does the card have money on it?

If it'll pay for your ticket, then yes...

Hypothetically you're going to the Airport and going to be abroad for two weeks. You have £50 in cash, plenty of foreign currency but only £5 on your debit card but you need to buy a £15 ticket. You're not a regular train user so you have no idea that there is no open ticket office and a card only TVM at the station you're travelling from.

When you get to the station you see what appears to be a member of rail staff (who's a RPI) he tells you to use the card only TVM. However, if you do you'll run in to an overdraft which will cost you £1 a day and you probably won't be able to access your online banking from where you are going, so using the TVM will cost you a minimum of £29 to buy the £15 ticket when you have over £15 in cash available on you.

 

[beeza1]

How much more would you be willing to pay for your train ticket so that those can be achieved?

Why should we have to pay more? If fare dodging is as rife as the TOC's make out surely it would be self financing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should we have to pay more? If fare dodging is as rife as the TOC's make out surely it would be self financing.

I personally think a solid aim is that the costs of enforcement for ticketless travel should be covered by the fines/penalty fares brought in, TBH.

Neil

 

[kwerty]

With regards to other TVMs on the Network, Hanborough being an example which is card only, if you are stopped by an RPI after boarding from there and there is a RPI block at Reading where you are travelling too, if you intended to pay by cash, you will still be written up, but as long as you state a reasonable answer in your written statement as to why you chose to not pay by card at the TVM before boarding, the Prosecutions department will asses it and then just charge you the appropriate fare for the the journey made

I'd be particularly unimpressed if this happened to me. 15+ minutes being written up by an RPI, plus extra time having to deal with responding to letters and making payment for the fare which the RPI could have just arranged to take there and then?

I'd be sorely tempted to bill the TOC for my time and expenses for postage, stationary etc.for responding to any correspondance.

 

[Starmill]

Using the Hanborugh example above, as an RPI myself, I would be asking why the customer had not bought one from the conductor on the train, as every train on that route has one.

Really? Oh, could've fooled me.

These are the situations in which it is totally unacceptable that FGW are allowed a PF Scheme.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How much more would you be willing to pay for your train ticket so that those can be achieved?

Doesn't sound like option 2 would cost much at all to me, all it needs is some more proactive ticket selling, which in some cases requires no extra staff. In others it would.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh well, as usual the posts on this thread are becoming more and more hypothetical, while ignoring the elephant in the room - YOU HAVE TO BUY A TICKET!

 

[yorkie]

Oh well, as usual the posts on this thread are becoming more and more hypothetical, while ignoring the elephant in the room - YOU HAVE TO BUY A TICKET!

The OPs friend, and also johntea, wanted to, and had an advertised means to....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh well, as usual the posts on this thread are becoming more and more hypothetical, while ignoring the elephant in the room - YOU HAVE TO BUY A TICKET!

You have to buy a ticket using one of the methods offered by the railway as a whole, at the first point where you can do so using your chosen method of payment.

And if the railway wants to change that, fine, but it has to be made clear. So if cash is not accepted when boarding at station X, cash is not accepted, whatever else you have.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

So if cash is not accepted when boarding at station X, cash is not accepted, whatever else you have.

What about people who have online transaction only cards? Are they banned from travelling from station X if the bank can't be contacted to authorise the transaction even if they have the correct change to pay the cash fare?

 

[Busaholic]

I have no personal experience of fare/payment issues with RPIs or anyone else, excluding a train conductor fully thirty years ago who wouldn't accept the ticket I had was available on his train, rerouted during engineering works. I won that one!

I have been a shopkeeper these last 26 years, though now winding down, and one authorised to take all Visa/Mastercard transactions. I may be a minnow, but even the big fish have to play by certain rules and standards which have, if anything, become more onerous over the years. The idea that I , or any other provider of debit/credit card services ON BEHALF OF THE CARD ISSUING COMPANIES, has a right to go 'fishing' to establish how much a person has in their bank account or could obtain in credit or ny way of overdraft is ludicrous. T he Data Protection Act and ensuing legislation, as well as industry-wide rules which you have to be a signatory to, absolutely preclude it except for certain tightly-prescribed situations which don't include any scenarios on here in a million years. I can only say that if in some of the positions described here and in other threads and I had the ways and means (cash) to pay and had been prevented from doing so, if asked to pay by card where I chose not to do so, I would tell the RPI or whoever it was none of their business if I had a debit card and how much (if anything ) I had on it.

 

[island]

I don't think anyone's suggested "going fishing to find out how much a person has" in their account.

 

[LateThanNever]

Now we know that all Stations south of Bridgwater which have a TVM, all accept card and cash, so my second point in the case of Exeter is not valid in that area and there is no excuse. I don't know the West area of the network that well hence asking the question in here.

Speaking to someone who works the gates at Oxford (in an area which I do know)

With regards to other TVMs on the Network, Hanborough being an example which is card only, if you are stopped by an RPI after boarding from there and there is a RPI block at Reading where you are travelling too, if you intended to pay by cash, you will still be written up, but as long as you state a reasonable answer in your written statement as to why you chose to not pay by card at the TVM before boarding, the Prosecutions department will asses it and then just charge you the appropriate fare for the the journey made.

Apparently the reason for the above is to catch those out who decide to "take that chance" when refusing to pay by card to avoid paying at all, and only paying when challenged. The RPI will ask questions such as "why didn't you pay card if you have one in your possession"

Only a matter of time before it gets tested in court if the reply to the letter doesn't match the circumstances on the day in regards to refusing to pay by card at a TVM, or if the passenger stopped fails the attitude test

The reply could just be because I can't afford the interest charges, and the railway would have to accept that it was unable to take payment at the right time with a legitimate payment method.

I have no personal experience of fare/payment issues with RPIs or anyone else, excluding a train conductor fully thirty years ago who wouldn't accept the ticket I had was available on his train, rerouted during engineering works. I won that one!

I have been a shopkeeper these last 26 years, though now winding down, and one authorised to take all Visa/Mastercard transactions. I may be a minnow, but even the big fish have to play by certain rules and standards which have, if anything, become more onerous over the years. The idea that I , or any other provider of debit/credit card services ON BEHALF OF THE CARD ISSUING COMPANIES, has a right to go 'fishing' to establish how much a person has in their bank account or could obtain in credit or ny way of overdraft is ludicrous. T he Data Protection Act and ensuing legislation, as well as industry-wide rules which you have to be a signatory to, absolutely preclude it except for certain tightly-prescribed situations which don't include any scenarios on here in a million years. I can only say that if in some of the positions described here and in other threads and I had the ways and means (cash) to pay and had been prevented from doing so, if asked to pay by card where I chose not to do so, I would tell the RPI or whoever it was none of their business if I had a debit card and how much (if anything ) I had on it.

Quite! You can try and get a payment 'authorised' and it either goes through or not. The idea that you have to prove to the railway you are unable to pay with your card is fanciful.
I also cannot see financial details being obliged to be disclosed without the order of a court. And it is nigh on impossible that this would be permitted for even the debt of a train fare, as the evidence would be insufficient, given that a cash transaction would have been possible, but the railway chose not to make it available.

 

[LowLevel]

One thing which does strike me at a complete tangent to the whole affair having flicked through this whole behemoth of a thread and previous ones is that this forums requires an explicit disclaimer (more so than already provided) stating:

1. Railway ticketing is very complex.
2. Fares Advisers here are not officially accredited by any one in the railway industry only their peers
3. Advice given as such is opinion only and should not be relied on as anything other than guidance - this is particularly as in quite a few cases the fares advisers themselves can't seem to reach consensus.

To use DaveNewcastle as an example, he is generally at pains to point this out anyway when he posts, very responsibly. I know there is the post at the top of the forum already but I don't necessarily feel it is strongly worded enough.

It's my belief that this is important to protect people who come in reasonable numbers seeking advice and could take it to carry more weight than it has - they may not be familiar with (all of our background, railway staff or not) our position as primarily interested enthusiasts.

This is not, by the way, any implication that people have no idea what they're on about because many of the explanations on here make more sense than any retail training on the railway that I've received. Simply that without actually going to court either side of your arguments could prove correct.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I've had it confirmed by ATOC that passengers wishing to pay by cash can pay by cash at the first opportunity to pay by cash. But not everyone agrees with that. (and no I can't provide a source, but if anyone wants to ask ATOC themselves, feel free! If you get a different answer let me know the details and I'll get it reviewed & that person corrected!)

If so, if someone can get me a list of TOC prosecution departments that disagree with this, and contact details, I'll make some contacts and get some changes made.

Yorkie, I have to ask the question, if anyone on this forum actually has so much authority, why does anyone else bother to post?

ATOC will tell you (or me) themselves that they have no authority to instruct TOCs and act in an advisory capacity only.

In ATOCs own words:

'The extent to which a receiving organisation chooses to comply with any or all of the advice is entirely at its own discretion.'

With regard to the interpretation of 'the law', whether or not a TOC prosecution unit decides to move to action by way of a Summons will be assessed against what the actual legislation says and the likelihood of success.

The 'whether to proceed or not' decision will be taken by the TOCs prosecutors.

NRCoC and other publications, including those produced by ATOC, do not determine whether or not an offence may be alleged.

That assessment will be measured against what an Act of Parliament or Byelaw says.

Whether any attempted prosecution is ultimately successful, or not will depend on the quality of evidence and how the Magistrates view the traveller's words & actions in relation to the law that they are charged with contravening.

 

[LateThanNever]

Yorkie, I have to ask the question, if anyone on this forum actually has so much authority, why does anyone else bother to post?

ATOC will tell you (or me) themselves that they have no authority to instruct TOCs and act in an advisory capacity only.

In ATOCs own words:

'The extent to which a receiving organisation chooses to comply with any or all of the advice is entirely at its own discretion.'

Yorkie, I have to ask the question, if anyone on this forum actually has so much authority, why does anyone else bother to post?

ATOC will tell you (or me) themselves that they have no authority to instruct TOCs and act in an advisory capacity only.

In ATOCs own words:

'The extent to which a receiving organisation chooses to comply with any or all of the advice is entirely at its own discretion.'

With regard to the interpretation of 'the law', whether or not a TOC prosecution unit decides to move to action by way of a Summons will be assessed against what the actual legislation says and the likelihood of success.

The 'whether to proceed or not' decision will be taken by the TOCs prosecutors.

NRCoC and other publications, including those produced by ATOC, do not determine whether or not an offence may be alleged.

That assessment will be measured against what an Act of Parliament or Byelaw says.

Whether any attempted prosecution is ultimately successful, or not will depend on the quality of evidence and how the Magistrates view the traveller's words & actions in relation to the law that they are charged with contravening.

That is all absolutely true BUT without the combined thoughts of supporters (or not) one gets no idea of supporting (or not) views which could be offered in court and could certainly be offered in 'negotiation' with the railway. In the end almost everything legal is pretty uncertain but the magistrates court is generally rough justice, so you have to be vociferous if you are want to succeed - hence why many (most?) posters are often just that.
You need to fight for your rights in order to preserve them. This pertains not only in the law but also, as we have seen, with the banks and energy suppliers, along with many supposedly respectable PLCs of which many - if not all - railway companies are members...

 

[cjmillsnun]

If their defence to not using a card is that the account is not in credit, they may have to demonstrate this to the court, if not to the RPI at a station.

Fahad bet me to it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bottom line is, that in my experience, and I do work a lot of stations that have TVM's only out of hours, many more passengers are "Pay when challenged" (or "Pay when woken up") than "The ticket machine was broken". I have NEVER been told by a passenger that the TVM would not accept their cash as a reason for them not having a ticket, and the ones who said it wouldn't accept their card invariably had the card declined when I rang the bank ("They usually just swipe it, mate"), and didn't have cash for the journey. Some of the UFN's I have issued to these have resulted in court cases.

I don't think that claiming that the passenger can excuse their lack of a ticket by saying their preferred payment method isn't accepted at their local station is a good precedent to set, and I could see any TOC's fighting hard to prevent it happening.

My card is not accepted at TVMs or with Avantix. It genuinely isn't, because of previous credit issues, it has to confirm with the bank every time that the funds are there (they are).

It will however allow me to pay at a station ticket office, or draw cash from a cashpoint, or even collect ToD (as my card is accepted online!), although ToD is not any good for an emergency, very short notice journey.

So I walk by a card only TVM. Is this an opportunity to pay? It shouldn't be... As the only method that TVM accepts, I don't have.

And the way the TOCS can prevent this from happening is to have TVMs that accept cash at ALL stations.

EDIT: I'm going to write to my TOC (SWT) to get their policy on the matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, how come I sell thousands of pounds worth of tickets every month to people travelling from manned stations with open ticket offices? (And I'm not talking excesses or upgrades, but whole new tickets). A significant number of people won't buy a ticket unless you make them, and giving them excuses like "I wanted to pay cash / postal order / little plastic token" when they have a few plastic cards on them that they could have used is only giving them a "get out of jail free" card.

They have no defence, period. If there is an open ticket office, or a working TVM that accepts cash, they have buy before they board.

 

[PermitToTravel]

My card is not accepted at TVMs or with Avantix. It genuinely isn't, because of previous credit issues, it has to confirm with the bank every time that the funds are there (they are).

It will however allow me to pay at a station ticket office, or draw cash from a cashpoint, or even collect ToD (as my card is accepted online!), although ToD is not any good for an emergency, very short notice journey.

So I walk by a card only TVM. Is this an opportunity to pay? It shouldn't be... As the only method that TVM accepts, I don't have.

I think this might only happen at some stations? One of my cards doesn't work in Avantices and in other places where offline authorisation is required, but it works in every TVM I've tried it in.

 

[b0b]

In the absence of any other evidence, I can't see how a customer that wishes to pay with cash or RTV is passing up an opportunity to pay at a card-only TVM by simply being in possession of a credit/debit card.

 

[bnm]

All of the TVM'S from and including Bridgwater westwards are cash and card

Really? I used a Card Only TVM at Taunton just two days ago.

 

[najaB]

In the absence of any other evidence, I can't see how a customer that wishes to pay with cash or RTV is passing up an opportunity to pay at a card-only TVM by simply being in possession of a credit/debit card.

Many agree with you in principle, however it is yet to be proven so in law.

Despite several hundred posts across multiple threads.

 

[Busaholic]

Time for all prosecutions for fare issues, so-called evasion etc to be taken out of the hands of individual TOCs and even the ATOC and to be handled by a separate office within NR that could, in appropriate cases, liaise with the CPS before any action was taken. In the case of bye-law contravention this should go to an arbitrator (ombudsman, if you like) whose opinion would be binding on the TOC. Magistrates Courts should not get tied up with these things particularly with the evident, and unsurprising, lack of expertise of many magistrates and their clerks in this area.

 

[yorkie]

Time for all prosecutions for fare issues, so-called evasion etc to be taken out of the hands of individual TOCs ...

I agree; it sounds like some of them can't be trusted not to prosecute people who adhere to the conditions & policies that the Train Companies are supposed to adhere to.

 

[LateThanNever]

Time for all prosecutions for fare issues, so-called evasion etc to be taken out of the hands of individual TOCs and even the ATOC and to be handled by a separate office within NR that could, in appropriate cases, liaise with the CPS before any action was taken. In the case of bye-law contravention this should go to an arbitrator (ombudsman, if you like) whose opinion would be binding on the TOC. Magistrates Courts should not get tied up with these things particularly with the evident, and unsurprising, lack of expertise of many magistrates and their clerks in this area.

Hurray. Now we don't need the judge led special inquiry - We have it all in one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Time for all prosecutions for fare issues, so-called evasion etc to be taken out of the hands of individual TOCs

IMO, time for fare dodging to be decriminalised, replaced with a semi-civil structure of penalties based on those used by Councils for parking enforcement (the actual levels of which to be set to minimise losses through evasion), and a genuinely independent national appeals body.

Neil

 

[RPI]

Really? I used a Card Only TVM at Taunton just two days ago.

Yes you're correct, there are 3 card only TVM'S, 1 of the three at Taunton, one of the two at Exeter St David's and one of the two at Plymouth, I suppose it would have been clearer for me to say that every station in the west that has a TVM has at least one that accepts cash and card.