FGW Buy before you board policy

[Rich McLean]

Just to make you all aware, in the Exeter area at least, FGW RPI's expect you to purchase a ticket from a TVM (where available) if no ticket office exists. The following was observed by a friend of mine.

A lot of passengers were stopped at Exeter Central on Friday. One passenger argued the fact that TVMs do not offer the full range of tickets, on in his case, the ticket which he required. The RPI in question stated a ticket must be bought from the machine nearest to what they require (as long as it is valid at time of travel) and then exchanged said ticket for the ticket you originally intended to buy for his journey at the next available ticket office. Said passenger got written up for not having a valid ticket while passing an opportunity to do so (TVM)

Also it was mentioned, if it was a Card Only TVM, if you have a debit/credit card with balance on it as well as cash, and wanted to pay by cash, they still expect you to pay by card.

I know this is a grey area, but the first bit I can understand to a degree, but has anyone on here tried or succeeded with the Card only TVM rule in court? i.e. you have a card with funds on, but wanted to pay by cash and passed the TVM and got on board?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also it was mentioned, if it was a Card Only TVM, if you have a debit/credit card with balance on it as well as cash, and wanted to pay by cash, they still expect you to pay by card.

"Do you have a card with a balance on it, sir"?

"No, I'm afraid not, my account has nothing left as I get paid in a couple of days' time".

They have absolutely no legal way to verify that.

Neil

 

[maniacmartin]

On the first part, the RPI is correct - see NRCoC Condition 3, although some TOCs waive this requirement in practice.

The second part has been subject to many long threads on this forum before.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Also it was mentioned, if it was a Card Only TVM, if you have a debit/credit card with balance on it as well as cash, and wanted to pay by cash, they still expect you to pay by card.

With some TOCs becoming more focussed on re-education and more robust enforcement in problem areas and a harder line being taken on opportunist non-payment, I think that it's only a matter of time before this gets tested.

 

[Flamingo]

On the first part, the RPI is correct - see NRCoC Condition 3, although some TOCs waive this requirement in practice.

The second part has been subject to many long threads on this forum before.

However, opinion expressed on this forum (however forcefully) does not count as legal precedent

 

[CC 72100]

Just to make you all aware, in the Exeter area at least, FGW RPI's expect you to purchase a ticket from a TVM (where available) if no ticket office exists. The following was observed by a friend of mine...

Sounds like they are going quite strong on fare evasion lately. For the past few weeks, barriers at St Davids have been manned until 23:00, much to the surprise of a few chancers and I also saw somebody from Newton Abbot being given a PF as opposed to the ticket they asked for

I'm going to be controversial and say that a fair amount of those who don't use the TVM and want to buy in the train are actually counting on the fact that the guard doesn't come to them during the journey, but then I'm just cynical aren't I?

I have been caught out by Condition 3 in the past in a different sense. One night I was travelling from Exeter SD - Totnes and back - £4.30 with my railcard. Because of condition 3, I had to purchase this ticket, despite the fact that a Devon evening ranger would have been cheaper at £3.30 as well as offering me greater validity. Unfortunately, I encountered no staff on either train to 'exchange' said ticket, (which would have led to a partial refund) and so I had to continue with the CDR ticket. I know it's only a £1, but it was a little annoying that because of this condition 3, I had to buy a more expensive ticket and then didn't have the same 'opportunity' to exchange it for the one I actually wanted.

I don't know if this is different now that Exeter SD is barriered at that time, and so there will be somebody there with an Avantix to (hopefully) sell me the ticket at the barriers - on this night the station manager claimed there was no equipment/anyone trained to sell me that ticket, and so I had to use the TVM, which of course I did, being a good boy.

 

[Rich McLean]

Thanks very much chaps. Not to clued up on the various different rules being applied, the 1st point is as I expected, but was always ensure.

On regards to the second point I made, if a passenger with no ticket, passed an opportunity at a Card only TVM, had both cash and card on him, but pointed out there was no balance on the card, if the RPI were to write it up, it would be up to the Prosecutions department to decide if they were prepared to test this situation in court.

On another matter, would their legal team have the power to determine if this passengers bank/debit/credit card(s) had sufficient funds on it or not as part of gathering evidence, if passengers details were taken? Maybe a question for someone like DaveNewcastle?

 

[maniacmartin]

AdamW, you only have to buy tickets that are available up to the value of the ticket you want. If there is no relevant ticket that is no more expensive than the ticket you want, then in my opinion, you don't need to buy anything.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The RPI is undoubtedly correct on the first bit, although FGW struggle with condition three at their ticket offices.

I'd also bet that the RPIs would write someone who did that up for short-faring...

As for cards, I don't see how it can ever be enforceable. Where does one draw the line? If I have a card on me with a positive balance? If I have any card on me, even one which is overdrawn? If I don't have a card on me but I have one in my socks drawer at home? If I've forgotten to bring it with me or deliberately chose not to?

 

[Flamingo]

Of course, if a card is offered but "I've no money on it", a quick call to the automated card verification system will establish if this is true or not...

 

[Tetchytyke]

My card has 4p credit balance on it, but I've a £1000 overdraft (untouched). Does the card have money on it?

 

[Flamingo]

If it'll pay for your ticket, then yes...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

My card has 4p credit balance on it, but I've a £1000 overdraft (untouched). Does the card have money on it?

Yes

The issuing bank will (usually) honour any transaction up to the limit of your overdraft (and then charge you extra for exceeding your limit).

 

[RPI]

All of the TVM'S from and including Bridgwater westwards are cash and card, PF'S have been issued in Devon and Cornwall since 2010 with several thousand in total issued per annum by the West team, which compromises 12 RPI'S, also, Ticket Examiners will shortly be going on their PF training as their restructuring included a requirement to be PF trained. The gateline operating hours have been extended permanently at those stations now.

 

[Rich McLean]

Of course, if a card is offered but "I've no money on it", a quick call to the automated card verification system will establish if this is true or not...

So, there is nothing to stop RPI's checking this when a passenger is asked and a card is present, but passenger claims there is no funds on it, providing of course that the passenger hands over the card and is compliant.

For the overdraft situation, if you have only 4p and an overdraft facility (untouched) then there is nothing to stop you heading to the bank and depositing the price of the fare with the cash on you into the bank on the next visit

 

[RPI]

Just to make you all aware, in the Exeter area at least, FGW RPI's expect you to purchase a ticket from a TVM (where available) if no ticket office exists. The following was observed by a friend of mine.

this has always been the case, it's nothing new.

 

[Flamingo]

So, there is nothing to stop RPI's checking this when a passenger is asked and a card is present, but passenger claims there is no funds on it, providing of course that the passenger hands over the card and is compliant.

For the overdraft situation, if you have only 4p and an overdraft facility (untouched) then there is nothing to stop you heading to the bank and depositing the price of the fare with the cash on you into the bank on the next visit

If they are selling a ticket or PF then no. If they are checking for authorisation then decide for whatever reason not to issue a ticket, I'm not sure, I'm sure Island or one of the other bank bods on the site will be along to enlighten us!

 

[yorkie]

I have been caught out by Condition 3 in the past in a different sense. One night I was travelling from Exeter SD - Totnes and back - £4.30 with my railcard. Because of condition 3, I had to purchase this ticket, despite the fact that a Devon evening ranger would have been cheaper at £3.30 as well as offering me greater validity. Unfortunately, I encountered no staff on either train to 'exchange' said ticket, (which would have led to a partial refund) and so I had to continue with the CDR ticket. I know it's only a £1, but it was a little annoying that because of this condition 3, I had to buy a more expensive ticket and then didn't have the same 'opportunity' to exchange it for the one I actually wanted.

I hope you asked FGW to refund the £1? If not, please do as I'd be interested to hear the response.

I suspect they will say that you don't have to buy a more expensive ticket under Condition 3, but it would be good to have confirmation of this.
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On regards to the second point I made, if a passenger with no ticket, passed an opportunity at a Card only TVM, had both cash and card on him, but pointed out there was no balance on the card, if the RPI were to write it up, it would be up to the Prosecutions department to decide if they were prepared to test this situation in court.?

If the passenger presented cash at the first opportunity, there is not going to be an issue (unless you make there be one!)

If the customer presented a card then they would rightly be asked why they did not use the machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, there is nothing to stop RPI's checking this when a passenger is asked and a card is present, but passenger claims there is no funds on it, providing of course that the passenger hands over the card and is compliant.

I'm not going to attempt to answer the question, but to avoid any doubt, any person who is wishing to pay by cash and happens to have a card on their person, would be advised not having that card 'on show', so as to avoid that debate.

I've had it confirmed by ATOC that passengers wishing to pay by cash can pay by cash at the first opportunity to pay by cash. But not everyone agrees with that. (and no I can't provide a source, but if anyone wants to ask ATOC themselves, feel free! If you get a different answer let me know the details and I'll get it reviewed & that person corrected!)

 

[Rich McLean]

I hope you asked FGW to refund the £1? If not, please do as I'd be interested to hear the response.

I suspect they will say that you don't have to buy a more expensive ticket under Condition 3, but it would be good to have confirmation of this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the passenger presented cash at the first opportunity, there is not going to be an issue (unless you make there be one!)

If the customer presented a card then they would rightly be asked why they did not use the machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not going to attempt to answer the question, but to avoid any doubt, any person who is wishing to pay by cash and happens to have a card on their person, would be advised not having that card 'on show', so as to avoid that debate.

I've had it confirmed by ATOC that passengers wishing to pay by cash can pay by cash at the first opportunity to pay by cash. But not everyone agrees with that. (and no I can't provide a source, but if anyone wants to ask ATOC themselves, feel free! If you get a different answer let me know the details and I'll get it reviewed & that person corrected!)

Many Thanks. I will pass this info on so that he can avoid any issues

 

[yorkie]

Many Thanks. I will pass this info on so that he can avoid any issues

You're welcome.

For the avoidance of doubt I'd assume all TOCs enforce Condition 3 unless you have it in writing that they do not.

SWT have told a forum member verbally that they do not enforce Condition 3, but I'd want to see that in writing.

Northern have told at least forum members via e-mail that they do not enforce Condition 3.

There was a thread about Condition 3 last Summer. It reached 172 posts (so not a quick read!) but Northern did give a good response (see the final post) and have a much better policy in this area than FGW.

I also know that EMT and EC told a forum member they do enforce Condition 3. I wasn't surprised that EMT do, but EC surprised me.

If you have to comply with Condition 3, and you want a Travelcard/Ranger/Rover you may have to over-pay and await a refund later and/or allow a lot of time to sort it out, when it's discovered an excess isn't actually possible!

If someone could get the policy of each TOC in writing that would be useful!

 

[RPI]

Another point of interest, there weren't any RPIs at EXC Friday night?!?!

 

[Rich McLean]

Another point of interest, there weren't any RPIs at EXC Friday night?!?!

Ahh. I will have to check this with him to make sure he didn't mean St Davids in that case.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Oh no. Not this again!

. . . . I've had it confirmed by ATOC that passengers wishing to pay by cash can pay by cash at the first opportunity to pay by cash. But not everyone agrees with that.

I don't.

. . . and no I can't provide a source, . . . .

Last time, I remarked that an authority which can't be quoted is no authority. Your wording is different this time, but the principles of my objection remain unchanged.


Your 'confirmation' doesn't appear to be any more than the opinion of a customer-facing member of ATOC staff, and is not any binding condition on the terms of the Contract of passenger travel.

Please don't keep repeating opinion which cannot be authenticated or substantiated and which, if deployed by a rail passenger as if it was a binding condition, might lead the passenger into unwanted confrontation and, potentially, unwanted legal action.

 

[PermitToTravel]

All of the TVM'S from and including Bridgwater westwards are cash and card, PF'S have been issued in Devon and Cornwall since 2010 with several thousand in total issued per annum by the West team, which compromises 12 RPI'S, also, Ticket Examiners will shortly be going on their PF training as their restructuring included a requirement to be PF trained. The gateline operating hours have been extended permanently at those stations now.

Lovely to hear!

Rather a few TOCs could do with emulating FGW's stellar example here

 

[yorkie]

Cash is an accepted payment method and if a passenger wishes to pay with cash, they can pay with cash and should do so at the first opportunity where cash is accepted.

That is not opinion, that is fact.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Can we sticky some old versions of this argument so you don't have to keep having it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The "condition 3", "receipt vs. keep ticket", "not via London via London", and a few more arguments too please?

 

[najaB]

Cash is an accepted payment method and if a passenger wishes to pay with cash, they can pay with cash and should do so at the first opportunity where cash is accepted.

That is not opinion, that is fact.

I agree with you 100% that is how it should be, but without seeing something in writing I'm not convinced that view is shared by all TOC's prosecution departments.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with you 100% that is how it should be, but without seeing something in writing I'm not convinced that view is shared by all TOC's prosecution departments.

If so, if someone can get me a list of TOC prosecution departments that disagree with this, and contact details, I'll make some contacts and get some changes made.

 

[najaB]

If so, if someone can get me a list of TOC prosecution departments that disagree with this...

That's just the problem, how many have made their position public one way or another?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, if a card is offered but "I've no money on it", a quick call to the automated card verification system will establish if this is true or not...

The RPI has absolutely no right whatsoever to do that if the card is not offered in payment. And in any case, it will *not* tell them that, it will tell them whether the payment would be authorised or not. That is not the same thing at all - it is completely unreasonable for a TOC to expect someone to incur unauthorised overdraft fees in order to buy a ticket by card when they are, for example, one of the typical older people who draw out their entire wage/pension in cash when it is deposited.

I think this needs testing in Court, TBH.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the overdraft situation, if you have only 4p and an overdraft facility (untouched) then there is nothing to stop you heading to the bank and depositing the price of the fare with the cash on you into the bank on the next visit

By the next visit, of course, fees over and above the ticket price have been incurred. It is completely unreasonable for the TOC to insist on that if cash would have been accepted absent the card.

Neil