the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[jon0844]

What about Hatfield then? That's what happened there on platform 3. And, yes, people do indeed have to run down the platform and do so regularly (despite the screens warning that trains ALL stop at the far end). What did FCC have to say about that?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Seems like another daft FCC edict. My local station has separate 4, 8 and 12 car stop boards and nobody need run for anything.

Sometimes the technology just serves to make things more complicated.

 

[AM9]

Would it really be the same bit of kit found in any office though? I don't see why not but it just doesn't sound like the railway way :P

That's why I said a few tens of £K. I would think that a box/aerial system that is marketed for commercial office use would cost no more than £2k each in materials. The installation would involve a cable between the aerial and the box plus some (normal) ac mains supply. As has been suggested, the plastic box that is suitable for an office environment could be re-packaged to survive the trackside environment.
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Given that the railway official calamity proof version is suffering from EMC problems anything that is just rated for residential, light industrial and commerical use is likely to be fried in short order there.

Why, it wouldn't be connected to anything other than a normal industrial supply, so it could have a EN50121 derogation under specific operating conditions.
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Ah. So what I should have said was :

"What genius specified a system for a route using tunnels through a city which used GPS, and a beacon system on a 25Kv railway susceptible to interference from 25Kv".

25Kv isn't the problem, it's the RFI from the high power switching in the traction circuits finding its way back into the 25Kv. It would be much worse if the supply was 750VDC.

 

[21C101]

Why, it wouldn't be connected to anything other than a normal industrial supply, so it could have a EN50121 derogation under specific operating conditions.

lol rotlf. Sorry AM9 but the idea that you can get a derogation from BS EN 50121 or any other EMC standard by connecting the device to an industrial power supply is the funniest thing I've read all weekend, but to be fair I'm sure a salesman has tried that one on before.
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25Kv isn't the problem, it's the RFI from the high power switching in the traction circuits finding its way back into the 25Kv. It would be much worse if the supply was 750VDC.

Do you mean the RFI from the high frequency thyristor type rectifiers in the trains getting back into the OHLE? If the traction circuits were switching off and on hundreds or thousands of times a second, all sorts of exciting things would soon start happening, probably culminating in the substations or the traction motors burning out.

I have my doubts 750V d.c. would do the same. For a start the trains don't need to rectify it and the substations have low frequency rectifier (300 & 600hz) interference depending on whether they are six or twelve point.

Secondly I suspect the OHLE is a fairly good aerial perched above the track. Third rail being low down with an (earthed) running rail right next to it probably wouldn't cause so much problem as much of the RFI emitted from the live rail in such a scenario would be absorbed by the running rail in a similar way to the way the earthed shield in a coaxial cable (such as a TV aerial cable) reduces interference.

 

[AM9]

I think most GPS repeaters work by simply re-broadcasting signals received on an outdoor antenna. [If you think about it, there's no other easy way of doing this without inventing your own indoor triangulation system, by which point track beacons are just as useful.]

This obviously means that the position a GPS receiver detects is that of the external antenna, wherever you are. This is useless as a safety feature unless the repeater has a very short range focussed on a specific area (and then the train is given the external coordinates), exactly the opposite of what an off-the-shelf repeater would be designed to do, and more what a track based beacon-type-thing is designed to do.

Which is why I said:
"The receiving aerials could be located vertically above the Thameslink Box beside the MML tracks/platforms and if there was any offset, that would be programmed into the permissions for door opening locations on the trains."
Apologies but I have corrected it by adding the text in bold, i.e., the space vertically above the Thameslink platforms is NR controlled and siting the aerials there would introduce minimal lateral error in the location information at train level. I don't know how the decision to allow door opening is given, but I imagine that the route is mapped with lookup tables for platform locations. The values in these maps could easily be adjusted to cancel any lateral offset out.

A better question. I'm still not entirely convinced it is the right one to ask though - I imagine the system is a bolt on from the original system for Electrostars, used at places like (I think?) Victoria, possibly before it was required for Thameslink(?).

The problem sounds very specific to conditions at St Pancras as well, so perhaps it is something entirely unprecedented that even a good testing regime might have missed.

This is a lot of speculation though, and I'm happy to accept that maybe the kit is a load of crap.

I concur with that, and I didn't know that the 700s will not use GPS data but will have ECTS beacon data available. From about 3 years hence, the 700s will be the only trains allowed in the core in normal service, so maybe this issue was known about and they just decided to brave it out for a few years.

 

[21C101]

Which is why I said:
"The receiving aerials could be located vertically above the Thameslink Box beside the MML tracks/platforms and if there was any offset, that would be programmed into the permissions for door opening locations on the trains."
Apologies but I have corrected it by adding the text in bold, i.e., the space vertically above the Thameslink platforms is NR controlled and siting the aerials there would introduce minimal lateral error in the location information at train level. I don't know how the decision to allow door opening is given, but I imagine that the route is mapped with lookup tables for platform locations. The values in these maps could easily be adjusted to cancel any lateral offset out.

If you use a GPS over fibre system the GPS aerials can be located wherever you like. I'm not sure though whether a suitable amplification system to respray the GPS signal all over the low level station box, and adjust the signal to account for the fact that the GPS signal is from somewhere else some distance away is commercially available though (or desirable).

I'm also sceptical as to whether even if the station was in the open GPS would be suitable, as the line is signalled for wrong line running (in which case the doors would open on the other side) and, while I may be wrong, I very much doubt the GPS system is accurate enough to work out which line the train is on in a wrong line running scenario - or at least do so reliably enough to open the doors on the wrong side less often than a driver doing it manually would.

 

[The Box Photter]

Alternatively, they could have painted a big yellow stripe cross the platform and told the drivers to stop in line with the "big yellow line". Then they could have given the drivers some sort of hi-tech device in the cab to release the doors, lets call it a switch/button. No need to worry about GPS being interfered with by thyistor feedback into the Heisenberg compensators overloading the warp core by flooding it with charged chronometric particles.

Trains have become too complicated for their own good, resulting in technology for technology's sake and in-built capacity for failure.

The driver should know how long the platforms are and where to stop his/her train safely so that passengers can disembark. Don't give me the line about "some trains will be longer than the platform" no they won't on Thameslink. fast trains will be 12 car or eight car and stoppers will be eight car. So long as the signallers don't put trains into the wrong above ground platforms, there's no need for this GPS ballcocks.

 

[SPADTrap]

What about Hatfield then? That's what happened there on platform 3. And, yes, people do indeed have to run down the platform and do so regularly (despite the screens warning that trains ALL stop at the far end). What did FCC have to say about that?

Hatfield I think was different, that move was the direct result of a few particularly nasty stop shorts in both directions if I remember rightly, hence down road having it first and up road following recently. I guess its handled on a case by case basis but a blanket move to all S car boards won't happen. As a driver I'd like it, one less thing to worry about but it won't happen as someone somewhere has deemed it too risky to passengers. People choose to run, they don't have to.

I don't know what say FCC had in that case.

 

[tsr]

Alternatively, they could have painted a big yellow stripe cross the platform and told the drivers to stop in line with the "big yellow line". Then they could have given the drivers some sort of hi-tech device in the cab to release the doors, lets call it a switch/button. No need to worry about GPS being interfered with by thyistor feedback into the Heisenberg compensators overloading the warp core by flooding it with charged chronometric particles.

Trains have become too complicated for their own good, resulting in technology for technology's sake and in-built capacity for failure.

The driver should know how long the platforms are and where to stop his/her train safely so that passengers can disembark. Don't give me the line about "some trains will be longer than the platform" no they won't on Thameslink. fast trains will be 12 car or eight car and stoppers will be eight car. So long as the signallers don't put trains into the wrong above ground platforms, there's no need for this GPS ballcocks.

As I detailed earlier, 377s have SDO controls which should be able to be overridden in "emergencies" (or, to put it more accurately, failures/incidents where the doors would otherwise not open). 377s are the only stock usually running in 12-car formation throughout the Thameslink route, but do need SDO, and it is more efficient for this to work automatically whenever possible - and if, in the majority of cases, GPS or another beacon/detection system suffices, then so much the better! For example, stops at Balcombe could require SDO to open doors on only 8 coaches, where it would be best to have an automatic system, and relatively easy too (compared to St Pancras). Likewise any emergency/out of course stops at Salfords, Earlswood, Purley Oaks, South Croydon, and numerous other stations in South London where you might need to open doors in an incident. Such would not be a case of entering the wrong platform, but rather being given the only platform available and having to make do. Nothing to do with signaller error!

Oh, and also, Thameslink trains can run in 4-car formations.

 

[westcoaster]

The problem of door release at St Pancras low level has been there since day one and as said is to do with interference with the gps, boosters have been fitted and moved several times. It's not a problem that rears its head all the time you can go months and months with no problems and some days it fails to release the doors ( emergency release takes seconds).

Another problem is there is two St Pancras stations in the gps database you have St Pancras (mainline) & St Pancras ( thameslink) so if you select the wrong one you have to start again.

387's are so accurate it knows exactly what line you are on and even the correct platform, they have a system called CRE ( correct release enable) which if the station/platform is enabled will stop wrong side door release altogether.

 

[VisualAcid]

My FGW Gloucester to Padd was cancelled due to a staff shortage, and having made good time across London on the tube thinking I'd be with my family for the start of the football I get onto the platform at Farringdon to find another cancellation due to staff shortage on Thameslink. Not strictly on topic but man that sucked

 

[hassaanhc]

Pathing is actually very generous. The diversion takes 7-8 mins longer than via London Bridge, but to avoid rewriting either the MML or Brighton line timetables, the trains get an extra 15 to slot in the next path.

It would be good if an extra stop or two were added rather than wait ages at Elephant & Castle, Blackfriars, or East Croydon. The best extra stop would be Crystal Palace which would open up many more journey opportunities, and help eat into the extra waiting time given. Currently there is no direct service from Crystal Palace to anywhere that the Thameslink Bedford-Brighton services stop. For most of the day there don't appear to be other services following close behind either. Other operators will probably object though .

 

[causton]

387's are so accurate it knows exactly what line you are on and even the correct platform, they have a system called CRE ( correct release enable) which if the station/platform is enabled will stop wrong side door release altogether.

Interesting as when I took a 387 through St Pancras southbound the driver announced the normal "may take a few moments for the doors to release" speech - guess they are just used to saying it as with 377s or don't know that it is less likely to happen!

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield I think was different, that move was the direct result of a few particularly nasty stop shorts in both directions if I remember rightly, hence down road having it first and up road following recently. I guess its handled on a case by case basis but a blanket move to all S car boards won't happen. As a driver I'd like it, one less thing to worry about but it won't happen as someone somewhere has deemed it too risky to passengers. People choose to run, they don't have to.

I don't know what say FCC had in that case.

I'm only suggesting the single stop board at St Pancras and even then only for as long as it's a problem. And it might be more of a problem as more 387s replace 319s.

Getting worse before it gets better...

 

[Bishopstone]

Last northbound train to stop at Farringdon cancelled tonight.

Thameslink website and Twitter feed silent, as ever, on the matter.

 

[jon0844]

That's bad. Even though you could get a bus to St Pancras pretty easily, wouldn't cancelling the last train actually mean taxis for those stranded?

 

[21C101]

Last northbound train to stop at Farringdon cancelled tonight.

Thameslink website and Twitter feed silent, as ever, on the matter.

Yes it is has been highly irritating to see a list of cancellations on live departures then go to their website and find them claiming a "good service is running" at the same time as elsewhere the travel alerts tells you that there are cancellations due to staff shortages and "To check your journey, please use the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner"

On FCC that would have been a yellow light with all the days cancellations listed. I think the website is very poor.

General impression from both fellow pax and our local MP is that this lot are a worse shower than FCC were (which no one thought possible)

 

[stut]

Yes it is has been highly irritating to see a list of cancellations on live departures then go to their website and find them claiming a "good service is running" at the same time as elsewhere the travel alerts tells you that there are cancellations due to staff shortages and "To check your journey, please use the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner"

On FCC that would have been a yellow light with all the days cancellations listed. I think the website is very poor.

General impression from both fellow pax and our local MP is that this lot are a worse shower than FCC were (which no one thought possible)

Agree. FCC did take a while to get going, but the last incarnation of their website was pretty decent at times of moderate disruption - including cancellations, but also short formations and declassifications, notified in advance when known. These are conspicuously absent from the TSGN website.

FCC could be fairly poor with information during major disruptions, but TSGN, so far, just go silent. It's incredibly frustrating to travel some distance to a country station, having checked the website and OJP, only to find there will be no trains running for the next couple of hours.

 

[SPADTrap]

General impression from both fellow pax and our local MP is that this lot are a worse shower than FCC were (which no one thought possible)

Funny that! Is it that no one thought it possible or more "grass must be greener, right?" And being horribly wrong

 

[jon0844]

I rather hoped First would have won, but at the very least it was/is crazy that a new company comes along and changes things like a fully functioning website that was pretty decent.

GTR can't change a lot of things, but sadly it seems that customer information, ticket selling, websites, social media and all of that can be played around with at will - and some of the changes made almost overnight were NOT beneficial to the passenger at all.

There are many grumbles from staff that I've spoken to, and the common theme about things being said that fall on deaf ears with management.

That's not a good sign.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be good if an extra stop or two were added rather than wait ages at Elephant & Castle, Blackfriars, or East Croydon. The best extra stop would be Crystal Palace which would open up many more journey opportunities, and help eat into the extra waiting time given. Currently there is no direct service from Crystal Palace to anywhere that the Thameslink Bedford-Brighton services stop. For most of the day there don't appear to be other services following close behind either. Other operators will probably object though .

It's very difficult to give people a service for a couple of years and then take it away, ie when the TL trains all revert to running via London Bridge. Besides the platforms aren't long enough for when the 700s turn up.

 

[21C101]

It's very difficult to give people a service for a couple of years and then take it away, ie when the TL trains all revert to running via London Bridge. Besides the platforms aren't long enough for when the 700s turn up.

I can see quite a fuss being kicked up by the denizens of Tulse Hill when the peak hour Brighton and Bedford trains that have stopped there since 1988 cease.

 

[Aictos]

What about Hatfield then? That's what happened there on platform 3. And, yes, people do indeed have to run down the platform and do so regularly (despite the screens warning that trains ALL stop at the far end). What did FCC have to say about that?

Indeed, if all the Inners are 6 cars which will be the case in 2018 with the Class 313 replacements being formed of a fixed 6 car formation, it doesn't matter if there is a single S stop at the end of the platforms.

That said I believe there is only 3 trains currently in the afternoon which are formed of 3 cars as the rest are all 6 car trains.

 

[fgwrich]

Funny that! Is it that no one thought it possible or more "grass must be greener, right?" And being horribly wrong

I rather hoped First would have won, but at the very least it was/is crazy that a new company comes along and changes things like a fully functioning website that was pretty decent.

GTR can't change a lot of things, but sadly it seems that customer information, ticket selling, websites, social media and all of that can be played around with at will - and some of the changes made almost overnight were NOT beneficial to the passenger at all.

There are many grumbles from staff that I've spoken to, and the common theme about things being said that fall on deaf ears with management.

That's not a good sign.

I was rather hoping First would have retained it too, likewise the start of FCC was a poor one, but at least over time several changes were added in and at least made it a better experience than before. Unfortunately, I was and wasn't surprised when Govia had been announced as the winners - Problems with London Midland, and consistently poor problems on South Eastern has never shown them up to be a reliable operator in my eyes, and nor does the issues on TSGN in times of disruption surprise me either - of all the TOCs I've been caught up in disruption with, Southern has been the worst in just going silent - I know the weather factors did not help that night, but even Southern's own staff were becoming as frustrated in trying to get any information out as the passengers were. So hearing the common theme of falling on deaf ears with management seems to sum up Govia.

 

[The Box Photter]

Many cancelled trains this evening due to "signalling problems". I know there was a major signalling problem at Gatwick today, but interestingly, the trains cancelled tonight due to signalling problems were the same ones that were cancelled most of last week due to "unavailability of a train crew member". That smacks of using the Network Rail infrastructure issue as a way of masking the driver shortage.

 

[AmeralGunson]

I've just got back from a trip to London. The train there was cancelled due to "signalling problems". That's a signalling problem at least once every day for the last four weeks. We passengers were sent to Dorking to catch a train to London. Those stairs at Dorking are no joke and it's a good job that it wasn't raining. Got back to Victoria to find that that the 18.09 had been cancelled so I took the horribly overcrowded and late running 18.02 to Redhill and a taxi back to Earlswood. It seems to me that the Brighton line is falling apart.

 

[21C101]

Many cancelled trains this evening due to "signalling problems". I know there was a major signalling problem at Gatwick today, but interestingly, the trains cancelled tonight due to signalling problems were the same ones that were cancelled most of last week due to "unavailability of a train crew member". That smacks of using the Network Rail infrastructure issue as a way of masking the driver shortage.

Not to mention the fact that the Southern South Croydon to Milton Keynes service has apparently been suspended all week due to "staff shortage" as another thread here mentions. They also did a "planned" canning of the 16.22 off Blackfriars to Bedford which isn't even in this weeks timetable. grrr.

I am fearful that the drivers are not too keen on working rest days/overtime for some reason. I am struggling to believe that there are far fewer drivers/more sickness/training than there was this time last year or the year before, or the year before, or the year before that, when I don't remember any such cancellations.

 

[asylumxl]

I think people who slated FCC either don't remember or didn't use the original Govia Thameslink. Unreliable, unclean and perpetually late.

While FCC couldn't and didn't turn things around immediately, I felt the cleanliness improved considerably, with regular use of on-train cleaners. Time keeping and such improved as the franchise progressed. But people are never happy. Even if every train was on time and immaculate they'd still find a reason to complain.

 

[21C101]

I think people who slated FCC either don't remember or didn't use the original Govia Thameslink. Unreliable, unclean and perpetually late.

While FCC couldn't and didn't turn things around immediately, I felt the cleanliness improved considerably, with regular use of on-train cleaners. Time keeping and such improved as the franchise progressed. But people are never happy. Even if every train was on time and immaculate they'd still find a reason to complain.

There was a definite reduction in mega failures when the service collapsed after first took over and the website was quite useful. What holed First below the waterline with pax was several months of skeleton service from November 2009 to Jan 2010 when they upset the drivers who, virtually to a man, promptly decided they couldn't be bothered to work overtime anymore and it became apparent that they were dependent on overtime to work half of the weekday service, never mind weekends. After that it was never, glad confident morning again for First.

 

[ItchyRsole]

I think people who slated FCC either don't remember or didn't use the original Govia Thameslink. Unreliable, unclean and perpetually late.

While FCC couldn't and didn't turn things around immediately, I felt the cleanliness improved considerably, with regular use of on-train cleaners. Time keeping and such improved as the franchise progressed. But people are never happy. Even if every train was on time and immaculate they'd still find a reason to complain.

Correct. Pretty funny reading the I hate FCC page on Facebook, with all the whingers who wanted them gone are now bleating about Govia & wishing FCC back. Pathetic.