the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[LBSCR Times]

Probably missed something somewhere, but why do Thameslink drivers need to know routes at Clapham Jct?

With the only route south of Blackfriars bring via Herne Hill, there will be a requirement for engineering work on this stretch somewhen between now and 2018. Therefore the overnight services to / from Gatwick have schedules for either via Tulse Hill or via Brixton / Clapham Jct.

 

[Aictos]

With the only route south of Blackfriars bring via Herne Hill, there will be a requirement for engineering work on this stretch somewhen between now and 2018. Therefore the overnight services to / from Gatwick have schedules for either via Tulse Hill or via Brixton / Clapham Jct.

I wonder when the first diverted services will go via Clapham Junction?

 

[OxtedL]

See also this thread from September: FCC (will be GTR Thameslink) via Clapham junction

 

[21C101]

Now the Daily Mail are joining in:

'Sorry for the delay to your train, this is due to a driver shortage!' How can we stop ridiculous excuses from Thameslink and other rail companies?

"I have been at stations where staff hid because passengers were so angry at the lack of information on delayed trains or timetables being changed on a whim.

Trains used to disappear within five minutes of being scheduled to arrive or were cancelled at short notice.

One angry commuter even set up a website called First Crapital Connect, dedicated to their failings.

So when the Department for Transport announced earlier this year that the Thamesllink franchise would be rewarded to Govia, this should have been a sign of better thigns to come, surely?

But three months into the new service, there are not many signs of improvement.

Drivers fail to turn up on a daily basis and the same trains get delayed.
Govia now apologises on a daily basis for a lack of drivers, yet if you look on its website, it doesn’t seem to be looking to hire any."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/co...ay-train-driver-shortage-says-Thameslink.html

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes.


It's not all bad news. I'm currently sat on a train shown in RTT as cancelled due to 'rostering error' (ie no driver).

However it is very much running, complete with driver!

The 1702 from St Pan got reinstated later in the afternoon (with extra stops at LAP, LEA and HAR), but not the 1632 or 1706 alas.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An honest statement from the top.

It does get better immediately in the new year:

1) the training for TLP reduces considerably
2) annual leave requests drop
3) the Christmas bills come in, meaning overtime is more likely to be covered

There is, as ever, stuff that can't be said on here, and will await publication in the book "A Cunning Plan" the memoirs of Bald Rick.

Unfortutely the PAX are sceptical. One said to me that the long letter from the MD published yesterday was much the same thing as FCC said when it all kicked off in 2009 and, as the reasons turned out to be rather different to said initial excuses in 2009, they are wondering if there is more to it than has been so far let on (like another dispute brewing).

I'm reasonably hopeful that there isn't a dispute we don't know of because no insiders posting here or on the first crapital connect forum have said so, but ordinary punters will be more difficult to persuade.

 

[Haywain]

The 1702 from St Pan got reinstated later in the afternoon (with extra stops at LAP, LEA and HAR), but not the 1632 or 1706 alas.

That's what I call going the long way round, but at least electrification has got to Devon. Or did you mean LTN?

 

[Saint66]

It's a shame that the Daily Mail is still read. Some of their arguments on this topic may certainly be note worthy, but why do they have to be on that awful website, and in that awful newspaper?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Out of interest, if a train is cancelled due to lack of driver, does the TOC still pay NR for access to the rails for that service? Perhaps its a payment calculated by the whole year timetable so an individual cancellation doesn't mean anything.
Are payments to the ROSCO / leasing company based on usage or per calendar?

No refunds on Track Access for on the day , or day-before cancellations - and no refunds from ROSCO's either. (in fact the latter charge more for "excess Mileage"

So no hidden agenda here about "saving money" - they are sunk costs and non refundable.

 

[The Box Photter]

Well I was with you until you referred to mainline drivers as "intransigent". You will find if you do your research that drivers work to a code of practice established after a rather nasty accident at Clapham in 1988. The root cause was a likely fatigued-induced mistake by a signalling engineer, which highlighted the fact that the whole industry was working on the expectation of overtime to dangerous levels. This led to the so-called "Hidden" rules which restricted drivers' working hours. They are not especially generous. It's possible to book off around 2am on a Sunday morning from a late shift to book on again at 4am on a Monday morning for an early shift - think about the effect of that change on your body clock. It's already established that shifts reduce life expectancy with crazy sleeping and eating patterns. This is worse when you work to flexible shifts. And you then have to concentrate non-stop whilst driving. Days off are needed. When drivers work rest days they need an incentive because they are putting their health and their livelihood at risk slightly more than if they just work their rostered days - which are full enough as it is. There is nothing "intransigent" about taking your days off - it's about safeguarding your health, your livelihood and possibly your liberty - not to mention the safety of your passengers. Think about that please.

OK. I respect the stress that working shifts places on the body and soul and I agree that everyone should have planned and pre-arranged days away from work. BUT, since the stress of working shifts is so bad, I'm surprised that ASLEF, RMT et al haven't got round the negotiating table with management to agree staffing levels that don't cause stress or cancelled trains due to missing drivers.

Safety on the railway is paramount, but is also seems that drivers and management are willing to chip away at the edge of safety because of such practices as booking off at 2am and booking on again at 4am. To my mind that's a crazy situation and I want the driver of my train as well as platform dispatch staff and signallers to be well-rested and alert. My comment about intransigence is that the driving staff seem very happy for this state of affairs to continue because of the additional pay that can be obtained AND the power it gives them over management and customers. That's also a crazy situation, which has been allowed to become the norm, when it should be the exception.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm surprised that ASLEF, RMT et al haven't got round the negotiating table with management to agree staffing levels that don't cause stress or cancelled trains due to missing drivers.

ASLEF are in a quandary on this. At union level, they want less overtime etc as by default that means more drivers and thus more members. However individually, most of their members are quite happy doing the overtime. Hence you never see a dispute because there are not enough drivers.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

ASLEF are in a quandary on this. At union level, they want less overtime etc as by default that means more drivers and thus more members. However individually, most of their members are quite happy doing the overtime. Hence you never see a dispute because there are not enough drivers.

The TUC would be horrified if they saw what has gone on in another formerly state-owned industry, that was privatised last year.
Faced with dwindling letter volumes, one Royal Mail unit I know of, decided they needed to use less man-hours in the office, to handle the reduced volumes. The union decided on a strategy of negotiating for a number of voluntary redundancies, just so that those who remained on site could maintain their existing levels of overtime. I was extremely disappointed, that the union did not accept cuts to unjustifiable levels of overtime, so as to maintain full-time jobs. The policy they thrashed-out was tantamount to selling jobs, IMHO

 

[Abpj17]

Now the Daily Mail are joining in:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/co...ay-train-driver-shortage-says-Thameslink.html

It didn't read like a DM article - is it citizen journalism from a TL commuter? (Although DM is bound to be responsible for pictures from the wrong departures board...)

I thought the below was particularly apt:

When the Thameslink route works, it is great.
You can get in and out of London relatively fast, with trains every fifteen minutes or so.
But when it fails, it really fails.

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...r-shortage-says-Thameslink.html#ixzz3MItXBhne
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

And TL commuters are definitely a cynical lot - they'll believe narratives about improvement when they see it and not before!

 

[RJ]

Unfortunately the driver shortage is also affecting the hourly overnight service. The 0142 Bedford to Gatwick stopper was cancelled this morning and yesterday morning too. It seems a train has been timed to leave St Pancras in a path 30 minutes later, but is of little consolation to the shift workers and airport travellers starting from north of there.

 

[Class377]

Another batch of problems this morning. Signal problems in the southern section of their route causing 30 minute delays which have already filtered through to late trains heading south from Bedford just in time for the peak. Add in the inevitable flurry of cancellations due to staff shortages, and it's chaos again.

Now, I'm not suggesting for one minute this is their fault, but you'd think they'd be quicker to get ticket acceptance in place. Currently nothing, when at the very least St Albans commuters have Watford and Hatfield as other options which they aren't able to use!

 

[Bald Rick]

Now, I'm not suggesting for one minute this is their fault, but you'd think they'd be quicker to get ticket acceptance in place. Currently nothing, when at the very least St Albans commuters have Watford and Hatfield as other options which they aren't able to use!

Perhaps that's because the delays are minimal? My train south is on time, and AFAICS there is only one cancellation in the peak, which is nothing to do with the signalling prob at Burgess Hill.

Trains are relatively empty too - there's only about 20 people standing in my coach rather than the usual 60.

 

[Class377]

Perhaps that's because the delays are minimal? My train south is on time, and AFAICS there is only one cancellation in the peak, which is nothing to do with the signalling prob at Burgess Hill.

Trains are relatively empty too - there's only about 20 people standing in my coach rather than the usual 60.

That sounds fair enough - I don't actually commute on that line! I'm going off the inevitable twitter rants which sounded apoplectic

 

[Minstral25]

Another batch of problems this morning. Signal problems in the southern section of their route causing 30 minute delays which have already filtered through to late trains heading south from Bedford just in time for the peak. Add in the inevitable flurry of cancellations due to staff shortages, and it's chaos again.

Now, I'm not suggesting for one minute this is their fault, but you'd think they'd be quicker to get ticket acceptance in place. Currently nothing, when at the very least St Albans commuters have Watford and Hatfield as other options which they aren't able to use!

Yes disaster this morning, after yesterday when they failed to run a single peak train through Redhill (Southern or Thameslink) due to Network Rail mess up but no alternatives provided for commuters other than a local bus service that could take around 3% of the commuters at Redhill. Today all cancelled bar one which ran with 4 coaches instead of 8.

If they have driver shortages that cause trains to be cancelled why can't they use surplus coaches to make up 8 or 12 coach trains instead of 4 coaches!

 

[mrmatt]

It is very frustrating at the minute. Two Bedford trains cancelled back to back last night resulting in a lovely sardine can that did not start to free up in any meaningful way before Luton, as it was an all stopper it wasn't the most fun I've ever had.

Appreciate there are a number of factors all combining to conspire against them but it is a rather frustrating line to be on right now. I guess on the positive side my season ticket next year will be heavily discounted!

 

[Bishopstone]

Yet another demonstration of how this long, complex, cross-city route doesn't work.

Signal failure at Burgess Hill, and within an hour 'north of Thames' is in chaos, too. Or vice versa, of course. What is needed is somewhere in zone one to turn sufficient trains to allow an approximation of a normal service on the side of the route not directly impacted by the problem.

 

[jon0844]

When the link up from the ECML was talked about so many years ago now, I thought it would be quite cool to be able to get a train to Gatwick Airport or Brighton - but of course, I'd hardly be doing that very often.

Being able to go on to Farringdon for Crossrail or on to London Bridge might be useful, especially for commuters, but I am starting to wonder whether we really needed the connection given the potential for causing such chaos - as well as managing people on the platforms given so many trains and different destinations and stopping patterns.

I say this because as it stands today, the walk from King's Cross to St Pancras isn't a big problem. There's the subway if you need it, and the crossing could be improved (and perhaps another one installed part way along) if necessary.

The disadvantage is that it obviously means changing train and having to try and make a connection, rather than stay on the train, but the advantage is massive when going the other way - where you can get on an empty train waiting at a platform, instead of trying to board one that could be quite full and having to stand amongst those waiting for other trains before or after.

I wonder if the DfT has factored in how many people will board the wrong trains, and those that will get on and ask 'is this train for ????' despite announcements, screens etc and then hold the doors open to get off?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet another demonstration of how this long, complex, cross-city route doesn't work.

Signal failure at Burgess Hill, and within an hour 'north of Thames' is in chaos, too. Or vice versa, of course. What is needed is somewhere in zone one to turn sufficient trains to allow an approximation of a normal service on the side of the route not directly impacted by the problem.

That's interesting. The signal failure was at 0620. I was at St. Albans station a little over an hour later. It was not in chaos. There were some trains running a little late, and a cancellation (no driver), but everyone got on trains and none were too heavily loaded. Perspective please!

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if the DfT has factored in how many people will board the wrong trains, and those that will get on and ask 'is this train for ????' despite announcements, screens etc and then hold the doors open to get off?

Very much so. The principle being employed in the core for 2018 is that every passenger will be in no doubt as to which is their train. Expect a revolution in passenger info.

It does rely on Traffic Management, and a connected Driver advisory system, hence why it can't be done just yet.

 

[jon0844]

I hope that's true, and changing the behaviour of passengers (especially tourists) will be interesting to see!

Will those horrid LCD displays be replaced as part of this, as they are awful at conveying information and confuse people by having

related bits of text on a new panel

and also 'paging' through the stopping patterns with long delays, on account of the inability to do scrolling.

 

[W230]

Unfortunately the driver shortage is also affecting the hourly overnight service. The 0142 Bedford to Gatwick stopper was cancelled this morning and yesterday morning too. It seems a train has been timed to leave St Pancras in a path 30 minutes later, but is of little consolation to the shift workers and airport travellers starting from north of there.

I think this is actually more dentrimental than cancelling selected services throughout the day as there is usually one along not much after (ready for the commuter backlash..).

Unfortunately I think this will continue into next week - we only have one driver working nights at my depot, all the other turns are uncovered!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The frustration is more that Thameslink choose to park the empty coaches up if there's no driver rather than couple them to trains that are running. There are all sorts of good operational reasons why they do this, I'm sure, but when they stick a four-carriage train on right after a cancelled eight-carriage people are going to be angry. Especially when they know many of the stations can take twelve-carriage trains.

Cancelling trains during the day, when there are plenty of alternatives, is annoying rather than a disaster. Cancelling the hourly night trains is far far worse, but then the night shifts are often the hardest to find volunteers for.

I don't know if a dispute is brewing. It wouldn't surprise me- GoVia's general modus operandi is to get rid of as many staff as possible (see London Midland ticket office staffing for more details). But I also think a fair bit of this is a hangover from First.

 

[Bald Rick]

I hope that's true, and changing the behaviour of passengers (especially tourists) will be interesting to see!

Will those horrid LCD displays be replaced as part of this, as they are awful at conveying information and confuse people by having related bits of text on a new panel and also 'paging' through the stopping patterns with long delays, on account of the inability to do scrolling.

Yes the LCDs will go. It is one of life's mysteries how they are so hopeless here but seem to work much better in Germany.

 

[21C101]

Yes disaster this morning, after yesterday when they failed to run a single peak train through Redhill (Southern or Thameslink) due to Network Rail mess up but no alternatives provided for commuters other than a local bus service that could take around 3% of the commuters at Redhill. Today all cancelled bar one which ran with 4 coaches instead of 8.

Closing the fast platforms at Earlswood was one of BRs silliest moves. It was in use many weekends for years during brighton line resignalling in the 80s then they shut and demolished them.

It meant when croydon redhill was shut you could get a fast to Gatwick which made an extra stop then either walk or change to a gatwick redhill shuttle. No bus involved. Should be quite easy to reinstate.

Bald Rick south of thames was chaos with some trains that did run caped at e Croydon as because they were late there was no longer a platform at London Bridge for them.

 

[Blamethrower]

The frustration is more that Thameslink choose to park the empty coaches up if there's no driver rather than couple them to trains that are running. There are all sorts of good operational reasons why they do this, I'm sure, but when they stick a four-carriage train on right after a cancelled eight-carriage people are going to be angry. Especially when they know many of the stations can take twelve-carriage trains.

Cancelling trains during the day, when there are plenty of alternatives, is annoying rather than a disaster. Cancelling the hourly night trains is far far worse, but then the night shifts are often the hardest to find volunteers for.

I don't know if a dispute is brewing. It wouldn't surprise me- GoVia's general modus operandi is to get rid of as many staff as possible (see London Midland ticket office staffing for more details). But I also think a fair bit of this is a hangover from First.

I was commuting on the WCML when this happened at LM. I was lucky as I was catching Virgin, but every evening for a time there were at least 2 cancelations due to staff shortages. It seems as if has now been transferred over to thameslink.

Is this how they make such a good bid to the government? by squeezing their drivers?

 

[Minstral25]

Closing the fast platforms at Earlswood was one of BRs silliest moves. It was in use many weekends for years during brighton line resignalling in the 80s then they shut and demolished them.

It meant when croydon redhill was shut you could get a fast to Gatwick which made an extra stop then either walk or change to a gatwick redhill shuttle. No bus involved. Should be quite easy to reinstate.

Bald Rick south of thames was chaos with some trains that did run caped at e Croydon as because they were late there was no longer a platform at London Bridge for them.

Yes but yesterdays NR problems were in the throat at the South of Redhill Station so you would not have been able to run a shuttle south of Redhill. You couldn't north of Redhill either through lack of willingness to try by Southern's Operational Management or perhaps because Network Rail had turned 3rd Rail power off in whole station area

If it was available how would get the 3,000 commuters waiting on the platform at Redhill to Earlswood - it's a 25-30 minute walk up a steep hill

 

[LBSCR Times]

Yes but yesterdays NR problems were in the throat at the South of Redhill Station so you would not have been able to run a shuttle south of Redhill. You couldn't north of Redhill either through lack of willingness to try by Southern's Operational Management or perhaps because Network Rail had turned 3rd Rail power off in whole station area

If it was available how would get the 3,000 commuters waiting on the platform at Redhill to Earlswood - it's a 25-30 minute walk up a steep hill

Yes, the traction current was isolated from Earlswood through to Merstham, and Reigate to Nutfield.

 

[21C101]

Yes but yesterdays NR problems were in the throat at the South of Redhill Station so you would not have been able to run a shuttle south of Redhill. You couldn't north of Redhill either through lack of willingness to try by Southern's Operational Management or perhaps because Network Rail had turned 3rd Rail power off in whole station area

If it was available how would get the 3,000 commuters waiting on the platform at Redhill to Earlswood - it's a 25-30 minute walk up a steep hill

25-30 minutes walk?, Earlswood Station is only 3/4 mile from Redhill Station, thats less than a 15 minute walk (less if you live south of the town centre). The hill is not that steep, and many commuters would far rather do that than ride on a bus from/to Purley, especially as this particular incident happened in the morning and they would have been walking down the hill to Earlswood.

Its also logistically vastly simpler (and vastly quicker journey time wise) to have a bus shuttle from Redhill to Earlswood and then stop all Quarry line trains there. Have you ever driven from Redhill to Purley in rush hour, it takes about three hours (I'm only slightly exaggerating)?

A handful of buses could then cater for local traffic by running from Earlswood to Coulsdon Town via Redhill and Merstham.

Reopening the fast line platforms at Earlswood is a complete no brainer and should have been done years ago.