EU, Immigration and UKIP

[Antman]

You quite obviously didn't make it clear. Unless loads of people accidentally took you the wrong way. You just came across as a little racist to me. I asked you I think more than once in what way the employement situation was the fault of immigrants. Not once did you say it was the governments fault.

Well that's just it isn't it, anybody who objects to mass immigration and the racist card comes out

 

[LateThanNever]

How is this any fault of the immigrants? It is purely the fault of the British rentier class. Cheapest man for the job. I think you are being harsh blaming the employees for coming over here for the **** poor wages being offered.

The world is full of British emigrants doing their jobs elsewhere because they can earn more money. If you don't like it vote or move abroad. Don't blame people for doing what our current economic system encourages.

As you say - and the French revolution was (at the very least arguably, caused by the rentier class, which is why tax relief on buy to let is such a scandal). But as you also say the current economic system encourages migration and if bbc radio is to be believed most immigration is still from NON EU countries. I have misgivings because I doubt EU immigration is properly counted. After all, someone on an EU passport is entitled to come here freely and may be visiting or staying - how would it be known?
Yet for me the elephant in the room is the expanding population. I understand England and Wales are together the most crowded countries in Europe (which is why housing is so very difficult). To add to this most immigrants seem to be of childbearing age.
But the economy is expanding and doing comparatively well - I believe this is, as in Victorian times, largely driven by the population increase which, if not entirely, is at least in part, immigrant led. So to my mind the way to address this is to concentrate on sorting out the housing crisis, which, to me, is the real crisis. Without a secure, regular place to live and bring up your children the entire population will not have a sense of identity or belonging and that is the nub of the problem.

 

[fowler9]

Well that's just it isn't it, anybody who objects to mass immigration and the racist card comes out

I am more than happy to debate immigration with you. When you start saying "they" are dragging down our standard of living, and you have said that, I think you are being a bit racist. Our own leaders are dragging down our standard of living, our employers are dragging down our standard of living. People from foreign poorer countries fitting in to our social and financial structure are not dragging down our standard of living.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As you say - and the French revolution was (at the very least arguably, caused by the rentier class, which is why tax relief on buy to let is such a scandal). But as you also say the current economic system encourages migration and if bbc radio is to be believed most immigration is still from NON EU countries. I have misgivings because I doubt EU immigration is properly counted. After all, someone on an EU passport is entitled to come here freely and may be visiting or staying - how would it be known?
Yet for me the elephant in the room is the expanding population. I understand England and Wales are together the most crowded countries in Europe (which is why housing is so very difficult). To add to this most immigrants seem to be of childbearing age.
But the economy is expanding and doing comparatively well - I believe this is, as in Victorian times, largely driven by the population increase which, if not entirely, is at least in part, immigrant led. So to my mind the way to address this is to concentrate on sorting out the housing crisis, which, to me, is the real crisis. Without a secure, regular place to live and bring up your children the entire population will not have a sense of identity or belonging and that is the nub of the problem.

It depends how you mean immigrant lead. Most immigrants come here for financial reasons. Why do they do that? The whole way our society is set up. They are financial migrants, they obviously think they will make more money here, you would do the same if you were on the bones of your proverbial. If we are prepared to underpay and overwork people why is anyone surprised. I am working longer hours for less pay with more responsibility than I was 6 years ago, I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

 

[radamfi]

Yet for me the elephant in the room is the expanding population. I understand England and Wales are together the most crowded countries in Europe (which is why housing is so very difficult). To add to this most immigrants seem to be of childbearing age.

No need to mention Wales, given that it is pretty low density.

Densities according to Wikipedia:

Wales 148/square km
England 407/square km

England is still somewhat behind the Netherlands with 493/square km. (There are lower population density figures for the Netherlands but that is because they include water and sometimes also the Caribbean Netherlands.)

Despite rhetoric suggesting the opposite, Governments of developed countries want immigration because of the demographic problems caused by an ageing population. Japan is a prime example as it has both a very old population and virtually no immigration. Virtually all developed countries have below replacement level fertility rates, and several have very low rates meaning that population is set to fall dramatically if there is no immigration.

 

[Aldaniti]

Well that's just it isn't it, anybody who objects to mass immigration and the racist card comes out

Yep, it's inevitable I'm afraid. Probably better to just keep schtum. I object to the uncontrolled immigration we are now experiencing purely because it has created a significant over-supply of labour in this country, and thus wages and living standards are kept down for many at the lower end of the salary scale resulting in a divide between rich and poor which is now wider than it ever was under Margaret Thatcher. No wonder big business are fans of our membership of the EU! We must be mad to allow this whilst taxpayers are paying unemployment benefits to several million who do not or cannot find work. If there is still a demand for labour after near full employment is achieved, I have no problem with immigration but what we have now, in many parts of the country is one hell of situation which, unchecked, will only result in more serious problems in the future. The big problem is that our membership of the EEC has developed from a trading club into a political project, a project that nobody in this country has ever had a say in, and that needs to be rectified. I suppose all this makes me a racist in the eyes of some, so I'll now keep schtum too. C'est la vie!

 

[radamfi]

The UK has a relatively low unemployment rate. Unemployment rate is not correlated with population density. In fact the reverse may be true, as some of the most rural parts of the UK, such as Cornwall and West Wales, are also relatively poor and see few immigrants.

 

[fowler9]

Yep, it's inevitable I'm afraid. Probably better to just keep schtum. I object to the uncontrolled immigration we are now experiencing purely because it has created a significant over-supply of labour in this country, and thus wages and living standards are kept down for many at the lower end of the salary scale resulting in a divide between rich and poor which is now wider than it ever was under Margaret Thatcher. No wonder big business are fans of our membership of the EU! We must be mad to allow this whilst taxpayers are paying unemployment benefits to several million who do not or cannot find work. If there is still a demand for labour after near full employment is achieved, I have no problem with immigration but what we have now, in many parts of the country is one hell of situation which, unchecked, will only result in more serious problems in the future. The big problem is that our membership of the EEC has developed from a trading club into a political project, a project that nobody in this country has ever had a say in, and that needs to be rectified. I suppose all this makes me a racist in the eyes of some, so I'll now keep schtum too. C'est la vie!

Yeah and do you think that if immigration was stopped tomorrow that we would all have jobs and get paid more for them to boot? No we wouldn't, the work would go somewhere else cheaper and you would be an economic migrant somewhere else. The problem is Neo Liberalism not immigration. Oh and the government are not paying unemployment benefits to several million foreigners. There are less than a million people currently on JSA in the UK in total. Of course while you are not a racist feel free to throw in several million foreign JSA claimants who don't exist. You are just being picked on for making things up.

 

[Aldaniti]

Yeah and do you think that if immigration was stopped tomorrow that we would all have jobs and get paid more for them to boot? No we wouldn't, the work would go somewhere else cheaper and you would be an economic migrant somewhere else. The problem is Neo Liberalism not immigration. Oh and the government are not paying unemployment benefits to several million foreigners. There are less than a million people currently on JSA in the UK in total. Of course while you are not a racist feel free to throw in several million foreign JSA claimants who don't exist. You are just being picked on for making things up.

Good grief, I can see what your agenda is. If you're going to reply at least read what I wrote properly. Or is it that you just had to reply but were struggling with anything factual? I clearly did NOT say that these benefits where being paid to 'foreigners'. That is actually the whole point, that we are paying benefits to several million people already in this country who do not work, whilst allowing uncontrolled immigration. And if you believe that there are less than a million people out if work in this country you must be very gullible. Now, I've made my contribution on this subject and I'll leave it at that.

 

[43021HST]

Good grief, I can see what your agenda is. If you're going to reply at least read what I wrote properly. Or is it that you just had to reply but were struggling with anything factual? I clearly did NOT say that these benefits where being paid to 'foreigners'. That is actually the whole point, that we are paying benefits to several million people already in this country who do not work, whilst allowing uncontrolled immigration. And if you believe that there are less than a million people out if work in this country you must be very gullible. Now, I've made my contribution on this subject and I'll leave it at that.

I would like to know who's fault you think the reason for all this unemployment is.

The fact of the the matter is, the levels of immigration stem from the effects of once having such a far reaching empire such as ours. Basically immigrants came over in the 1950s to make up for shortages of manpower during world war 2, nothing wrong with that. Since then the immigrants would bring over their family members to live with them, I mean who wants to work in an Indian sweatshop when you can have slightly more favorable working conditions in Britain and live with your family as well.

Don't like the immagration in this country? Well get out then because it's inevitable.

Human populations move around, it's something you have to accept.

 

[Antman]

I am more than happy to debate immigration with you. When you start saying "they" are dragging down our standard of living, and you have said that, I think you are being a bit racist. Our own leaders are dragging down our standard of living, our employers are dragging down our standard of living. People from foreign poorer countries fitting in to our social and financial structure are not dragging down our standard of living.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It depends how you mean immigrant lead. Most immigrants come here for financial reasons. Why do they do that? The whole way our society is set up. They are financial migrants, they obviously think they will make more money here, you would do the same if you were on the bones of your proverbial. If we are prepared to underpay and overwork people why is anyone surprised. I am working longer hours for less pay with more responsibility than I was 6 years ago, I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head, how on earth can the word "they" possibly be racist? If somebody referred to me as part of a "they" I wouldn't give a monkeys so why should anybody else?

 

[Antman]

Yep, it's inevitable I'm afraid. Probably better to just keep schtum. I object to the uncontrolled immigration we are now experiencing purely because it has created a significant over-supply of labour in this country, and thus wages and living standards are kept down for many at the lower end of the salary scale resulting in a divide between rich and poor which is now wider than it ever was under Margaret Thatcher. No wonder big business are fans of our membership of the EU! We must be mad to allow this whilst taxpayers are paying unemployment benefits to several million who do not or cannot find work. If there is still a demand for labour after near full employment is achieved, I have no problem with immigration but what we have now, in many parts of the country is one hell of situation which, unchecked, will only result in more serious problems in the future. The big problem is that our membership of the EEC has developed from a trading club into a political project, a project that nobody in this country has ever had a say in, and that needs to be rectified. I suppose all this makes me a racist in the eyes of some, so I'll now keep schtum too. C'est la vie!

I honestly couldn't have put it better! And yes it would be easier to keep schtum but on principle why should I be shouted down by the opposition? It is getting to the point where nobody dare say anything against immigration because they fear being branded a racist, hence why the two main parties are scared of saying anything and UKIP have filled that void.

 

[fowler9]

Good grief, I can see what your agenda is. If you're going to reply at least read what I wrote properly. Or is it that you just had to reply but were struggling with anything factual? I clearly did NOT say that these benefits where being paid to 'foreigners'. That is actually the whole point, that we are paying benefits to several million people already in this country who do not work, whilst allowing uncontrolled immigration. And if you believe that there are less than a million people out if work in this country you must be very gullible. Now, I've made my contribution on this subject and I'll leave it at that.

Apologies mate, you didn't say that they are being paid to several million foreigners. I don't actually believe that there are less than a million unemployed, the books are being cooked by those currently in charge in my opinion. There are a great many people who are currently unemployed or underemployed thanks to Neo Liberal Capitalism. The problem with this system is that it needs people to be unemployed and cheap foreign labour. At the same time it blames the unemployed and immigrants for the money they have to spend. UKIP will just bankrupt the country if they stop immigration. The problem I have with the likes of UKIP and people who want out of Europe is the constant stream of discredited members they have like the chap who in 2016 intends to run for mayor of Liverpool who said LFC are doing badly at the mo because they are cursed by god for supporting Gay Pride.

 

[fowler9]

You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head, how on earth can the word "they" possibly be racist? If somebody referred to me as part of a "they" I wouldn't give a monkeys so why should anybody else?

Mate your standard of living is being dragged down by those in power, not immigrants. Using "they" is a way of blaming some other for your problems.

 

[fowler9]

I honestly couldn't have put it better! And yes it would be easier to keep schtum but on principle why should I be shouted down by the opposition? It is getting to the point where nobody dare say anything against immigration because they fear being branded a racist, hence why the two main parties are scared of saying anything and UKIP have filled that void.

I'm not shouting you down, if you think I am shout back, which you are doing. I am just expressing my opinion. Or do you want me to just say nothing? I believe in having an open and frank debate about immigration.

 

[Antman]

Mate your standard of living is being dragged down by those in power, not immigrants. Using "they" is a way of blaming some other for your problems.

Mate..........I think you are splitting hairs

 

[Antman]

I'm not shouting you down, if you think I am shout back, which you are doing. I am just expressing my opinion. Or do you want me to just say nothing? I believe in having an open and frank debate about immigration.

An open and frank (whoever he is?) debate is fine with me

 

[fowler9]

Mate..........I think you are splitting hairs

Maybe so, and I don't have many left to split.

 

[fowler9]

An open and frank (whoever he is?) debate is fine with me

Ha ha. Everyone knows Frank.

 

[Aldaniti]

Apologies mate, you didn't say that they are being paid to several million foreigners. I don't actually believe that there are less than a million unemployed, the books are being cooked by those currently in charge in my opinion. There are a great many people who are currently unemployed or underemployed thanks to Neo Liberal Capitalism. The problem with this system is that it needs people to be unemployed and cheap foreign labour. At the same time it blames the unemployed and immigrants for the money they have to spend. UKIP will just bankrupt the country if they stop immigration. The problem I have with the likes of UKIP and people who want out of Europe is the constant stream of discredited members they have like the chap who in 2016 intends to run for mayor of Liverpool who said LFC are doing badly at the mo because they are cursed by god for supporting Gay Pride.

No problem at all, thanks for that. I can tell you I'm no fan of UKIP either!

 

[Aldaniti]

I honestly couldn't have put it better! And yes it would be easier to keep schtum but on principle why should I be shouted down by the opposition? It is getting to the point where nobody dare say anything against immigration because they fear being branded a racist, hence why the two main parties are scared of saying anything and UKIP have filled that void.

I agree. Everyone has their own views and opinions. Not in this thread, but in others, I've been big enough to listen to other peoples opinions and sometimes accept that I might be wrong on certain matters. Having a debate about these things is good, but the implied accusations of racism (I don't see any in this thread) and nonsense suggesting that you leave the country if you don't like it etc., really needs to be left in the playground.

 

[fowler9]

No problem at all, thanks for that. I can tell you I'm no fan of UKIP either!

No worries mate. I have climbed down off my very high horse. In the almost clear light of day (It is rather cloudy here) I can see I took a few people, including yourself, the wrong way. All the best.

 

[Aldaniti]

No worries mate. I have climbed down off my very high horse. In the almost clear light of day (It is rather cloudy here) I can see I took a few people, including yourself, the wrong way. All the best.

None of us are perfect are we?! All the best to you too my friend.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Stop quoting meaninglessness stats, nobody has any idea how many foreign nationals are in the UK

I am *not* quoting meaningless stats. The figure I gave of around 0.3% of the population per year is based on dividing the net migration figure by the UK population. Somewhat ironically, I got the net migration figures from Migration Watch UK - an anti-immigration organization that has a fairly similar viewpoint to your own, although the figures actually originate from the ONS. The figures show net immigration of around 200K - 250K per year for most of the last decade, so you can do the maths yourself.

There are a lot of different sources that can be used to build a picture of net migration (more details here): For example, for non-EU nationals, we know how many visas are granted. For EU nationals, we know how many National Insurance numbers are issued. But most importantly, we have the International Passenger Survey (a survey based on interviews with a large sample of people entering or leaving the UK). This can be cross-checked with census data. A lot of work has been done on the methodology, which - so far as I can see, has lead to the conclusion that the net migration figures are accurate to within about 34K per year. So, speaking very roughly, net migration figures are around 200-250K/year, plus or minus up to 34K per year - so accurate to within about 15%. That error is not enough to invalidate my basic point that population growth from migration has been running consistently at about 0.3% per year, and therefore that the claims of various political groups make about unsustainable, mass immigration are grossly exaggerated. As far as I can see after a lot of searching, there's really no good reason to doubt that the 0.3% figure is broadly accurate. In the worst possible scenario it might be around 0.4%, but that's about it.

(Note that that ~15% error in the stats is enough to make it hard to assess the impact of Government immigration policy from year to year, and it's also enough to cause problems with detailed infrastructure planning, which has given rise to various headline claims about our migration statistics not being fit for purpose - perhaps it's some of those claims that have lead you to mistakenly think we don't know what the approximate migration levels actually are?).