EU, Immigration and UKIP

[Wyvern]

The UK cannot accommodate unlimited numbers from abroad, surely that is obvious?

Funny that's just what they are saying in Spain about Brits working out there

Brits going abroad I imagine will get given a very rough time after the Libtories and the UKIP (especially their Euro MPs) have finished.

 

[fowler9]

1. Yes
2. I agree. But this lot are different.

Mate you should see the dregs of society that Great Britain dumps on the streets of Krakow. It is embarrassing.

 

[Greenback]

1. Yes
2. I agree. But this lot are different.

In what way?

I don't thin k you are against immigration, and I believe you when you say that. What I think is happening here is that your opinions (particularly about people hanging around) are a reflection of the way that UKIP and sections of the printed media have taken what are often legtitimate concerns and twisted them into an all out attack on particular groups, in this case eastern Europeans.

One of the consequences of the publicity that the issue of immigration has received is that it can change the way that individuals look at things. In this case, I base my opinions on what I see in my town and by actually talking to and engaging with the people who have come here to live. Such as the lovely lady who serves in a local cafe and has made her home here since first arriving eleven years ago.

Other people, including members of my own family, I'm ashamed to say, jump to similar conclusions as yourself when they hear an Eastern European type accent from someone who is in a pub or cafe, or who they pass on the street. This is because, in my view, the way Farage and co concentrate on this particular group and deliberately muddy the difference between asylum seekers and migrants, slowly drips into everyone's consciousness.

 

[fowler9]

In what way?

I don't thin k you are against immigration, and I believe you when you say that. What I think is happening here is that your opinions (particularly about people hanging around) are a reflection of the way that UKIP and sections of the printed media have taken what are often legtitimate concerns and twisted them into an all out attack on particular groups, in this case eastern Europeans.

One of the consequences of the publicity that the issue of immigration has received is that it can change the way that individuals look at things. In this case, I base my opinions on what I see in my town and by actually talking to and engaging with the people who have come here to live. Such as the lovely lady who serves in a local cafe and has made her home here since first arriving eleven years ago.

Other people, including members of my own family, I'm ashamed to say, jump to similar conclusions as yourself when they hear an Eastern European type accent from someone who is in a pub or cafe, or who they pass on the street. This is because, in my view, the way Farage and co concentrate on this particular group and deliberately muddy the difference between asylum seekers and migrants, slowly drips into everyone's consciousness.

Spot on. That is exactly what the likes of what Britain First do on Facebook for example. Illegal immigration has little to do with how much the state pension is or living in mansions. As for Eastern Europeans most of the men and women I see are on buses going to work mad shifts at the B&M Bargains warehouse near the airport. If anyone has a problem with them doing that perhaps they should have a word with B&M Bargains rather than the good people of Poland. Hit them in the pocket and don't shop there. It does my head in people moaning about immigration and then spending money at the companies that cause it, like it is the fault of Eastern Europeans! Ha ha.

 

[Antman]

In what way?

I don't thin k you are against immigration, and I believe you when you say that. What I think is happening here is that your opinions (particularly about people hanging around) are a reflection of the way that UKIP and sections of the printed media have taken what are often legtitimate concerns and twisted them into an all out attack on particular groups, in this case eastern Europeans.

One of the consequences of the publicity that the issue of immigration has received is that it can change the way that individuals look at things. In this case, I base my opinions on what I see in my town and by actually talking to and engaging with the people who have come here to live. Such as the lovely lady who serves in a local cafe and has made her home here since first arriving eleven years ago.

Other people, including members of my own family, I'm ashamed to say, jump to similar conclusions as yourself when they hear an Eastern European type accent from someone who is in a pub or cafe, or who they pass on the street. This is because, in my view, the way Farage and co concentrate on this particular group and deliberately muddy the difference between asylum seekers and migrants, slowly drips into everyone's consciousness.

Nothing to do with UKIP, I've been to Spain and stigmatized as a hooligan because of the actions of other Brits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Spot on. That is exactly what the likes of what Britain First do on Facebook for example. Illegal immigration has little to do with how much the state pension is or living in mansions. As for Eastern Europeans most of the men and women I see are on buses going to work mad shifts at the B&M Bargains warehouse near the airport. If anyone has a problem with them doing that perhaps they should have a word with B&M Bargains rather than the good people of Poland. Hit them in the pocket and don't shop there. It does my head in people moaning about immigration and then spending money at the companies that cause it, like it is the fault of Eastern Europeans! Ha ha.

What many of them are doing is cr@p jobs that pay a pittance and they are dragging everybody elses wages

 

[fowler9]

Nothing to do with UKIP, I've been to Spain and stigmatized as a hooligan because of the actions of other Brits.

Do you think that is right? Do you think it is right to stigmatize foreigners in the UK? Do you think the UK is overcrowded? Have you been to Hong Kong? A few questions there but I would be interested to see your answers.

 

[Greenback]

Nothing to do with UKIP, I've been to Spain and stigmatized as a hooligan because of the actions of other Brits.

If you have been stigmatised as a result of the actions of others and not your own actions, then I'm sure you agree that is unfair, and don't want to see immigrants being stigmatised by the actions of a minority either.

 

[Antman]

If you have been stigmatised as a result of the actions of others and not your own actions, then I'm sure you agree that is unfair, and don't want to see immigrants being stigmatised by the actions of a minority either.

Oh yes it is unfair but it's just life I'm afraid
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you think that is right? Do you think it is right to stigmatize foreigners in the UK? Do you think the UK is overcrowded? Have you been to Hong Kong? A few questions there but I would be interested to see your answers.

Can you imagine the stick David Cameron would get if he said those complaining about immigration should think themselves lucky that they aren't living in Hong Kong? Any such comparisons are totally irrelevant.

 

[muddythefish]

In what way?

Other people, including members of my own family, I'm ashamed to say, jump to similar conclusions as yourself when they hear an Eastern European type accent from someone who is in a pub or cafe, or who they pass on the street. This is because, in my view, the way Farage and co concentrate on this particular group and deliberately muddy the difference between asylum seekers and migrants, slowly drips into everyone's consciousness.

Not at all. I dislike Farage intensely - his main usefulness to me will be in splitting the Tory vote at the next election. You are jumping to conclusions about me and many other people who although they are in favour of immigration nevertheless are concerned about some of the people who have come to this country.

 

[Antman]

Not at all. I dislike Farage intensely - his main usefulness to me will be in splitting the Tory vote at the next election. You are jumping to conclusions about me and many other people who although they are in favour of immigration nevertheless are concerned about some of the people who have come to this country.

Do you know him personally? Just because you disagree with somebody it doesn't mean you have to dislike them.

 

[fowler9]

Oh yes it is unfair but it's just life I'm afraid
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Can you imagine the stick David Cameron would get if he said those complaining about immigration should think themselves lucky that they aren't living in Hong Kong? Any such comparisons are totally irrelevant.

Wow, you answered my four questions by asking what would happen if Cameron said people complaining should be grateful they aren't in Hong Kong. Nothing to do with anything I asked but well done. I never made any such comparison so you are in fact correct, what you said was completely irrelevant.

 

[muddythefish]

Do you know him personally? Just because you disagree with somebody it doesn't mean you have to dislike them.

I dislike what I see and what he says - it's enough.

 

[Greenback]

If I am jumping to conclusions then it's exactly the same as what you've done yourself muddythefish by complaining about Eastern Europeans obviously not working because they are standing about in the day or sitting in cafes.

I stand by what I said, even if you don't think it applies to you I reckon it does to a fair few.

I confess to be quite confused by what you're posting. You mention people not working with the implication that this is a bad thing, then you say you don't like Farage. OK, but it would help if you could post a few more details about what you actually do feel. Maybe you could expand a bit on some of your short posts so we can have a good discussion about what we do think?

 

[Antman]

Wow, you answered my four questions by asking what would happen if Cameron said people complaining should be grateful they aren't in Hong Kong. Nothing to do with anything I asked but well done. I never made any such comparison so you are in fact correct, what you said was completely irrelevant.

Why have you even mentioned Hong Kong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dislike what I see and what he says - it's enough.

I'm not sure that is quite the same thing, I can think of a few politicians that I disagree with but none that I particularly dislike

 

[fowler9]

Nothing to do with UKIP, I've been to Spain and stigmatized as a hooligan because of the actions of other Brits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What many of them are doing is cr@p jobs that pay a pittance and they are dragging everybody elses wages

Who pays the poor wages?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why have you even mentioned Hong Kong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not sure that is quite the same thing, I can think of a few politicians that I disagree with but none that I particularly dislike

You mentioned the country being overcrowded. I asked if you have been to Hong Kong.

 

[jon0844]

Spot on. That is exactly what the likes of what Britain First do on Facebook for example. Illegal immigration has little to do with how much the state pension is or living in mansions. As for Eastern Europeans most of the men and women I see are on buses going to work mad shifts at the B&M Bargains warehouse near the airport. If anyone has a problem with them doing that perhaps they should have a word with B&M Bargains rather than the good people of Poland. Hit them in the pocket and don't shop there. It does my head in people moaning about immigration and then spending money at the companies that cause it, like it is the fault of Eastern Europeans! Ha ha.

As I think I said earlier on this thread, the real issue is illegal immigration. But everyone is too scared to talk about that, so it falls upon the Eastern European immigrants who are here quite legally to take the blame.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as we obviously have jobs that a lot of people here either don't want to do, or can't afford to do because of bigger financial commitments.

Businesses clearly want to employ people who are more transient (of course some will opt to settle here and bring their family over etc) and will accept poorer conditions that are sailing close to the wind in terms of legality, and our economy is benefitting from it.

That's not to say this is a good thing, but why aren't we being more vocal about the people willing to risk their lives to get into this country and disappear? People who will often work illegally and commit crime (often the only way these people are ever discovered) and in the most extreme cases, plot against us?

 

[Antman]

Who pays the poor wages?

Oh come on........are you not aware that many jobs aren't even advertised in the UK, employers recruit direct from Eastern Europe because they will accept whatever is thrown at them because it's better than what they're used to

 

[muddythefish]

I think I've stated how I feel. I welcome all immigrants as long as they work and contribute (and have the decency to learn our language). I do not believe the groups in Northampton are working - and their presence on the streets in large numbers make me feel uncomfortable, not least because of their threatening appearance. Does that make me a Farage or Ukip supporter? Of course, it doesn't - the man is in an idiot, and a dangerous one at that - but I know many people feel the same way.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why have you even mentioned Hong Kong?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not sure that is quite the same thing, I can think of a few politicians that I disagree with but none that I particularly dislike

I disagree. It's easy to dislike many politicians - and Farage in particular.

 

[fowler9]

As I think I said earlier on this thread, the real issue is illegal immigration. But everyone is too scared to talk about that, so it falls upon the Eastern European immigrants who are here quite legally to take the blame.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as we obviously have jobs that a lot of people here either don't want to do, or can't afford to do because of bigger financial commitments.

Businesses clearly want to employ people who are more transient (of course some will opt to settle here and bring their family over etc) and will accept poorer conditions that are sailing close to the wind in terms of legality, and our economy is benefitting from it.

That's not to say this is a good thing, but why aren't we being more vocal about the people willing to risk their lives to get into this country and disappear? People who will often work illegally and commit crime (often the only way these people are ever discovered) and in the most extreme cases, plot against us?

Mate in my opinion illegal immigration is a tiny problem. Completely legal immigration from poorer countries being fueled by stingy employers giving worse rights to employees day by day is the problem. We need to look at ourselves. The boom in the housing market is the problem. No one in this country on a breadline wage can afford a house. It isn't the fault of some Latvian willing to hotbunk for a while to get more money home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh come on........are you not aware that many jobs aren't even advertised in the UK, employers recruit direct from Eastern Europe because they will accept whatever is thrown at them because it's better than what they're used to

Ha ha. And that is the fault of Eastern Europeans how? It's their fault for being poor. Ha ha.

 

[Greenback]

I think I've stated how I feel. I welcome all immigrants as long as they work and contribute (and have the decency to learn our language). I do not believe the groups in Northampton are working - and their presence on the streets in large numbers make me feel uncomfortable, not least because of their threatening appearance. Does that make me a Farage or Ukip supporter? Of course, it doesn't - the man is in an idiot, and a dangerous one at that - but I know many people feel the same way.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

My first thoughts are to wonder why you feel uncomfortable by groups on the streets, though I do recognise that they can appear intimidating depending on what they are doing, and, yes, their appearance too.

Did you feel more or less uncomfortable when you heard their accents and discovered they were Eastern European? I ask this because i genuinely might feel uncomfortable or even threatened by any large group, regardless of their origins.

I do think you are right in saying that immigrants should learn the language and at least try to integrate themselves into the society that they want to join. This is one of the genuine concerns that I referred to earlier.

However, when people from EU countries choose to come here they have the right to do so. In my view, the EU won't accept any restrictions introduced unilaterally by any of its members. So if you do want to only allow EU residents in to work, and that might include forcing them back home if their employment comes to an end, then the only realistic option is to leave the EU, as I don't think there's much chance of getting this agreed across the whole of membership.

Naturally, it's likely that there are criminals coming in and out of the UK, just as they move in and out of every EU country. Again, that's the rules. All we can do is to try and ensure that anyone who breaks the law is caught and dealt with. That applies regardless of whether they come from Edinburgh, Exeter or anywhere else.

When it comes to law breakers, though, I'm pretty sure that there is more risk of this from illegal immigrants. This is where the line between legitimate immigration becomes blurred, deliberately in my view, by the likes of UKIP, and the intention in doing so is to demonise certain groups more than they deserve.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The UK cannot accommodate unlimited numbers from abroad, surely that is obvious?

That is completely obvious, completely true, and basically a complete red herring, since unlimited numbers are quite clearly *not* coming to the UK. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the actual net numbers coming in (Ie. Immigration minus emigration) have not amounted to much more than about 0.3% of the population per year, which does not seem a remotely unreasonable rate for a country's population to increase.

 

[Antman]

Mate in my opinion illegal immigration is a tiny problem. Completely legal immigration from poorer countries being fueled by stingy employers giving worse rights to employees day by day is the problem. We need to look at ourselves. The boom in the housing market is the problem. No one in this country on a breadline wage can afford a house. It isn't the fault of some Latvian willing to hotbunk for a while to get more money home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ha ha. And that is the fault of Eastern Europeans how? It's their fault for being poor. Ha ha.

Are you just trolling or what? They are poor? So it is ok by you if they drag living standards in this country down is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is completely obvious, completely true, and basically a complete red herring, since unlimited numbers are quite clearly *not* coming to the UK. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the actual net numbers coming in (Ie. Immigration minus emigration) have not amounted to much more than about 0.3% of the population per year, which does not seem a remotely unreasonable rate for a country's population to increase.

Stop quoting meaninglessness stats, nobody has any idea how many foreign nationals are in the UK

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I worked with an English lad who complained that Eastern Europeans where taking construction jobs off English workers, his dad ran a building company employing a lot of Eastern Europeans.If Eastern Europeans are taking jobs off English workers then his dad was the problem for employing them for less money.

The strange thing with that complaint is that - here in SE London, I personally am struggling to find a reasonable, competent, local builder to do some work I need on my house. I've lost count of the number of builders (as far as I'm aware, all British) who have failed to return phone calls or to turn up to agreed appointments to give estimates - from which I can only assume they are all so busy that they don't want any more work.

And judging from stories like this one my experience is not unique - there appears a big shortage of skilled construction workers. Although I can't find the link, I'm fairly sure I read a BBC news story a week or two ago that claimed some construction companies are choosing not to bid for some work because they can't find enough skilled construction workers.

 

[EM2]

Are you just trolling or what? They are poor? So it is ok by you if they drag living standards in this country down is it?

Whose fault is it that these jobs are not advertised in the UK? Is it Joszef or Gheorghi's fault, sitting at home in Krakow or Craiova?
He has no idea whether the job he has seen advertised has only been published in his local paper. Maybe your ire would be better directed at those who are responsible for the recruitment.

 

[fowler9]

Are you just trolling or what? They are poor? So it is ok by you if they drag living standards in this country down is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Stop quoting meaninglessness stats, nobody has any idea how many foreign nationals are in the UK

How am I trolling? They are being employed by British people. British people employing them because they can pay them less. How is that the employees fault?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The strange thing with that complaint is that - here in SE London, I personally am struggling to find a reasonable, competent, local builder to do some work I need on my house. I've lost count of the number of builders (as far as I'm aware, all British) who have failed to return phone calls or to turn up to agreed appointments to give estimates - from which I can only assume they are all so busy that they don't want any more work.

And judging from stories like this one my experience is not unique - there appears a big shortage of skilled construction workers. Although I can't find the link, I'm fairly sure I read a BBC news story a week or two ago that claimed some construction companies are choosing not to bid for some work because they can't find enough skilled construction workers.

Everything with his complaint was strange. We forced up property and land prices and forced down wages. What happened. Loads of people from abroad willing to work hard for buttons came over.

 

[Antman]

How am I trolling? They are being employed by British people. British people employing them because they can pay them less. How is that the employees fault?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Everything with his complaint was strange. We forced up property and land prices and forced down wages. What happened. Loads of people from abroad willing to work hard for buttons came over.

You've said it yourself......."loads of people from abroad willing to work hard for buttons came over"..........can you really not grasp what effect that has on the indigenous working class?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whose fault is it that these jobs are not advertised in the UK? Is it Joszef or Gheorghi's fault, sitting at home in Krakow or Craiova?
He has no idea whether the job he has seen advertised has only been published in his local paper. Maybe your ire would be better directed at those who are responsible for the recruitment.

My ire?

The fault obviously lies with inept governments that have allowed this to happen. These employers are not actually breaking any laws although Ed Miliband pledged to outlaw it.........not as if he is worried about UKIP is it?

 

[EM2]

You've said it yourself......."loads of people from abroad willing to work hard for buttons came over"..........can you really not grasp what effect that has on the indigenous working class?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My ire?

The fault obviously lies with inept governments that have allowed this to happen. These employers are not actually breaking any laws although Ed Miliband pledged to outlaw it.........not as if he is worried about UKIP is it?

Yes, your ire. Wrath, anger, rage.
What happens if we leave the EU, which is what UKIP want? We lose free movement of labour into (and out of) the UK. That means we become reliant on UK citizens to fill vacancies. And what happens if they don't want to?
Then we need to use a complex, expensive and wasteful system of work permits, and still means you end up with non-UK workers.

 

[fowler9]

You've said it yourself......."loads of people from abroad willing to work hard for buttons came over"..........can you really not grasp what effect that has on the indigenous working class?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My ire?

The fault obviously lies with inept governments that have allowed this to happen. These employers are not actually breaking any laws although Ed Miliband pledged to outlaw it.........not as if he is worried about UKIP is it?

How is this any fault of the immigrants? It is purely the fault of the British rentier class. Cheapest man for the job. I think you are being harsh blaming the employees for coming over here for the **** poor wages being offered.

The world is full of British emigrants doing their jobs elsewhere because they can earn more money. If you don't like it vote or move abroad. Don't blame people for doing what our current economic system encourages.

 

[Antman]

How is this any fault of the immigrants? It is purely the fault of the British rentier class. Cheapest man for the job. I think you are being harsh blaming the employees for coming over here for the **** poor wages being offered.

The world is full of British emigrants doing their jobs elsewhere because they can earn more money. If you don't like it vote or move abroad. Don't blame people for doing what our current economic system encourages.

I thought I made it clear, the only people I blame is this and the previous government
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, your ire. Wrath, anger, rage.
What happens if we leave the EU, which is what UKIP want? We lose free movement of labour into (and out of) the UK. That means we become reliant on UK citizens to fill vacancies. And what happens if they don't want to?
Then we need to use a complex, expensive and wasteful system of work permits, and still means you end up with non-UK workers.

What wrath anger or rage? Lets not exaggerate eh?

If we did leave the EU it wouldn't mean zero immigration, just no more open door policy

 

[fowler9]

I thought I made it clear, the only people I blame is this and the previous government
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What wrath anger or rage? Lets not exaggerate eh?

If we did leave the EU it wouldn't mean zero immigration, just no more open door policy

You quite obviously didn't make it clear. Unless loads of people accidentally took you the wrong way. You just came across as a little racist to me. I asked you I think more than once in what way the employement situation was the fault of immigrants. Not once did you say it was the governments fault.