Were Bombardier Voyagers a mistake?

[thenorthern]

On this forum and on CrossCountry's Twitter I notice people saying that they would rather travel on HSTs than Voyagers with some people even modifying their travel plans to avoid Voyagers.

The main things I note that people don't like the underfloor engine noise, the narrower body, the "smelly toilet" and the fact that voyagers are often shorter than the trains they replaced.

It made me think though was the Design and Introduction of Class 220s and 221s a mistake by Virgin Trains and Bombardier? Some other things I notice about the trains is that the 221s were designed to tilt but CrossCountry disabled this as the amount of track they could tilt on is very little, the trains were full of reliability issues when they were introduced and the trains were meant to have at seat radios but these were disabled and are slowly being removed.

Personally I don't have a problem with Voyagers and I prefer them to the older coaching stock they replaced but I know I am in a minority there.

What does everyone else think?

 

[47802]

Voyagers are effective at what they do, the interior could have been better thank vermin for that, and all the trains should have had at least 5 coaches, standard class capacity of 160 odd on the 4 car is ridiculous, but that's not really the fault of the train but those who specified the capacity in the first place.

 

[bramling]

On this forum and on CrossCountry's Twitter I notice people saying that they would rather travel on HSTs than Voyagers with some people even modifying their travel plans to avoid Voyagers.

The main things I note that people don't like the underfloor engine noise, the narrower body, the "smelly toilet" and the fact that voyagers are often shorter than the trains they replaced.

It made me think though was the Design and Introduction of Class 220s and 221s a mistake by Virgin Trains and Bombardier? Some other things I notice about the trains is that the 221s were designed to tilt but CrossCountry disabled this as the amount of track they could tilt on is very little, the trains were full of reliability issues when they were introduced and the trains were meant to have at seat radios but these were disabled and are slowly being removed.

Personally I don't have a problem with Voyagers and I prefer them to the older coaching stock they replaced but I know I am in a minority there.

What does everyone else think?

From an engineering point of view, the Voyagers are not bad trains, apart from maybe they're not particularly fuel-efficient.

From a passenger point of view I find them ok when lightly loaded, the problem with them is they're too short, and then the space inside isn't particularly well utilised. A diesel version of a class 444 would offer a preferable travel environment. Some of these issues were designed out of the Midland Mainline units, which offer a much better travelling environment, although some of these are too short as well.

 

[Jonfun]

Short sighted, maybe. A mistake, no. Yes, they should have been specc-ed longer, but they're more reliable than the stock they replaced, perhaps don't have the best interior comfort level out there but nowhere near the worst, and they provide the opportunity for much faster journeys.

Yes, they're very dated technologically and cosmetically , and are perhaps a bit rough round the edges now, but no more than you'd expect from a train of their age.

They do the job they're given relatively well, just could do with a bit of a refresh, and although easier said than done, more vehicles.

 

[asylumxl]

This is quite easily the most original post ever. Never seen a post like this on here before :roll:.

By "people" you mean enthusiasts. The majority of passengers will either not know the difference or not actually care. Actual passengers pick trains that match the times they need, rather than the stock.

As said above, the Voyagers are fine at what they do. Perhaps they shouldn't have ordered any trains at all and cut the service.

 

[thenorthern]

By "people" you mean enthusiasts. The majority of passengers will either not know the difference or not actually care. Actual passengers pick trains that match the times they need, rather than the stock.

Nope I have seen regular passengers both Virgin Trains and CrossCountry twitter asking if a train is going to be a Voyager or not because they don't like them.

I personally don't mind if I am on a voyager or not but I do like the fact that they have power sockets at every seat in standard class which Pendolinos don't have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the trains are fine other than a few minor design flaws, such as the interior doors with no pressure sensor, the toilet ventilation system and the unreliable seat reservation system, as well as the small luggage rack caused, I think, by running a conduit above it on both sides. But most units have this sort of minor flaw to some extent.

However, the *biggest* flaw they had was that the XC service was improved substantially without any additional capacity. The "sparks effect" of a service improvement is well-documented.

Thus, the biggest problem with them is that they were too short. Really, they should have been 7-8 cars long as built, or there should have been roughly twice as many of them. If that wasn't affordable, perhaps a larger quantity of cheaper units such as Class 170s would have been better and could have avoided the significant retrenchment to services that was necessary to make the required capacity available.

Funnily enough, VT then did the self same thing with the Pendolinos, which started out as 8-car (anyone with any sense could have seen that wasn't going to work) and finished up as 9 or 11. I expect not extending all to 11 will be regretted soon.

Neil

 

[Haydn1971]

I like to think that we would be in a much worse situation had they never been ordered - 100's of outdated Mk2's and outdated locos. That said, an order of bi-mode units a generation on from the voyagers/meridians would be useful, I'm not specifically thinking more 800's, just enough of a newer generation unit to allow the current fleets of 22x's to be reformed into longer units or reallocated to new routes to displace 158/159 fleets though displacement by new longer EDMU's.

 

[causton]

Nope I have seen regular passengers both Virgin Trains and CrossCountry twitter asking if a train is going to be a Voyager or not because they don't like them.

Or is that just because the alternative has more capacity and will therefore be a bigger train?

(i.e. an HST with however many coaches (7? 8?), more than the 4/5, or a Pendolino with 9 or 11)

Many people will hate Voyagers not because they're Voyagers, but because they're generally busy trains! I personally don't think they're too bad, but that's probably because I've only really used them when they're lightly loaded. I don't think they look outdated at all to be honest, especially with the interior the same as a Pendolino in many respects!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like to think that we would be in a much worse situation had they never been ordered - 100's of outdated Mk2's and outdated locos. That said, an order of bi-mode units a generation on from the voyagers/meridians would be useful, I'm not specifically thinking more 800's, just enough on a newer generation unit to allow the current fleets of 22x's to be reformed into longer units or reallocated to new routes to displace 158/159 fleets though displacement by new longer EDMU's.

If IEP is successful I suppose there is an argument for a build of 7-8 car bi-mode IEP for XC, with the Voyagers going to regional express diesel services elsewhere, such as the North Wales Coast, running in pairs where necessary.

They also wouldn't be bad for things like ScotRail scenic lines, as the windows are huge provided the seating layout was changed to something more like the VT hybrid coach, i.e. all fully-aligned table seats.

Neil

 

[PHILIPE]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the seats and windows not being lined up.

 

[notadriver]

Noisy when accelerating, poor phone reception. I hate them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the seats and windows not being lined up.

That is...
a) Common on a lot of rolling stock
b) Easily fixed if a capacity reduction is acceptable (see the VT hybrid coach)

Neil

 

[CosherB]

This is quite easily the most original post ever. Never seen a post like this on here before :roll:.

By "people" you mean enthusiasts. The majority of passengers will either not know the difference or not actually care. Actual passengers pick trains that match the times they need, rather than the stock.

As said above, the Voyagers are fine at what they do. Perhaps they shouldn't have ordered any trains at all and cut the service.

thank goodness ..... a dose of reality on here!

 

[thenorthern]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the seats and windows not being lined up.

Its not too bad on the voyagers but on the Pendolinos its quite bad.

Noisy when accelerating, poor phone reception. I hate them.

CrossCountry are improving that I think with repeaters or something like that.

I remember the first time I went on a voyager the guard said he didn't like them as before he used to happily help passengers bring their luggage down the aisle but on Voyagers he said the aisle was too narrow.

I suppose also when the voyagers were introduced much of the technology was entirely new to the British Railway network so it was harder for Bombardier and Virgin Trains to know what was going to work and what wasn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember the first time I went on a voyager the guard said he didn't like them as before he used to happily help passengers bring their luggage down the aisle but on Voyagers he said the aisle was too narrow.

An option to help against this might be to have larger luggage racks at the vehicle ends with CCTV cameras pointing at them, and the video shown on screens on the saloon bulkheads. Then more people would be happy having their luggage away from them.

Neil

 

[ianhr]

My answer to the original question is a short one.......YES! They may have engineering and operational virtues but from a passenger point of view they are unfit for purpose for really long journeys, although to be fair I am not sure what %-age of CCs ticket sales are for trips of >2 hours.

If I need to make a journey from West Yorks to the West of England I avoid them and travel via London using 91+Mk4, Underground & HST......some might say less convenient but far more pleasant. Even on a day trip from Leeds to Sheffield I have been known to seek out the few remaining HST workings!

It would be interesting to know what the staff who have to work on them have to say.

 

[cjmillsnun]

To be fair, the basic train is alright. I just loathe the smell on board. It makes me want to vom. They also should've been twice as long as they are.

 

[Rapidash]

Other than the duff legroom, they aren't that bad.

The main issue with them is that they are very short on routes that get very busy, very quickly. You wouldn't think you'd manage to fill even a four car Voyager out of Paignton, but I've seen it happen pretty damned frequently, often the majority of seats reserved all the way to Bristol, Brum and Manc. And it's exactly the same coming from the other direction.

With the advent of the IEP, and its Ragnarok of the HST's effect, I would not be overly surprised if they end up cutting up sets and inserting carriages Seems to have happened with its sister classes at some point, anyway.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Having ridden on two on Tuesday from Birmingham to York and back, and then four to Southampton and back from Banbury very recently, quite glad this thread has popped up!

As others have said the two main problems are that they are too short for the routes they run, and the toilet smell, which is not the best welcome on a 2 hour + journey.

Once sitting down they are comfortable; they need refurbishing now though really (although that is expected after their heavy use). The engines are noisy however and on rough sections of track they are prone to minor rattles of panels inside.

Personally I prefer the way Chiltern has refurbished its former Wrexham stock. Really smart inside in terms of layout and colour schemes, and the seats are comfortable on them. Someone I know (who is no train enthusiast) commented on how much smarter and quieter the Chiltern MK3s were in comparison.

 

[6Gman]

To be fair, the basic train is alright. I just loathe the smell on board. It makes me want to vom. They also should've been twice as long as they are.[/QUOTE]

And how would that have been funded?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The original plan was for a split fleet - some "Voyagers" and a new build of LHCS....

Little known act - they assumed a 3 class tier ...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could "grandfather" rights be used at all to get around the emissions regs for a new build of coaches for the Voyagers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Little known act - they assumed a 3 class tier ...

Indeed, there was to have been First, Standard and "Virgin Value", which was going to be 3+2 seated (in that width?!)

That's the reason for there being 3 disabled bogs.

Of course the WCML ones now do have a "3 class" layout, albeit with the hybrid coach just being switched between First and Standard as required.

Neil

 

[Murph]

Could "grandfather" rights be used at all to get around the emissions regs for a new build of coaches for the Voyagers?

No need to get around anything, there's a IIIB version of the engine used in the Voyagers (Cummins QSK19-R). On the other hand, grandfather rights apply to stuff already built, not any new builds, so no you can't use grandfather rights like that (but wouldn't need to in this case). The only obstacle to building new coaches for them is cost.

As for the original topic, my 2p:

Good: new stock, fast, modern

Bad: noise, vibrations, cramped interior, uncomfortable seats (ergonomic design is a bad thing when size constrained, as larger people end up with the hard edges of the curves digging into them), corridor doors with no sensors (allowing them to close on people)

Overall, yeah we needed new trains at the time, but I think the Voyagers are actually a bad product, and could have been much better. It was a mistake to force tilt profile onto them. A modern HST2 would have been a better product (mk3 profile, top+tail power cars and smooth+quiet trailers). Even sticking with the powered trailers instead of doing a HST2, I think they could have been much better.

 

[thelongestroad]

You'd gave thought XC would have made a token effort to not make it look like they've just ripped the Virgin logo off the front leaving a discoloured yellow patch and at least perhaps refreshed the interiors a little bit..

 

[yorksrob]

They suffer from 2 things:

Operation Princess was a victim of it's own success.

The interior refurb of the XC HST's is really rather excellent. Difficult for a crowded Voyager to live up to.

 

[Bevan Price]

As others comment, the main problem is that they are too small. Two 4 coach Voygagers contain fewer standard class seats than one of the loco hauled sets that they replaced (Loco + 7) .

The other problem is that they used some of them on fully-electrified routes, when an emu would have been more sensible. That can be blamed on the DfT & operators, not the trains.

The internal design is less claustrophobic than Pendolinos, but could be a lot better. And the electronic reservation system is a pain - hard to read, and makes it difficult to identify unreserved seats, Passengers stand, blocking the gangway for several seconds, waiting to see if an empty seat is unreserved. Paper reservation tickets may be more labour-intensive & old fashioned, but they make life a lot easier for passengers.

 

[BestWestern]

The interior refurb of the XC HST's is really rather excellent. Difficult for a crowded Voyager to live up to.

Indeed. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that a XC HST is a far, far nicer place to be. Light, airy, spacious, quiet and comfortable; everything that a Voyager isn't. If the Voyagers were finally given the interior refurb that they so desperately need, and it was well thought out and designed with a specific brief to brighten up an unpleasant environment, that would help a lot.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that a XC HST is a far, far nicer place to be. Light, airy, spacious, quiet and comfortable; everything that a Voyager isn't. If the Voyagers were finally given the interior refurb that they so desperately need, and it was well thought out and designed with a specific brief to brighten up an unpleasant environment, that would help a lot.

Yes, indeed. Mind you, they should be due one fairly soon I would have thought !