Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

[387star]

The DfT's name for a franchise is not usually the same as the public name.

DfT 'Essex Thameside' is c2c.
DfT 'TSGN' is known by the franchisee as 'GTR'

The colour of trains is not specified by DfT - despite regular posts suggesting it is, no-one has ever found any evidence that it is a formal rule...

So who set the class 319/365 livery? Wasn't it a requirement govia keep this livery or is it because thameslink is under management contract conditions that provides little incentive to come up with a new livery

 

[DarloRich]

@Richmondcommu - you have said several times that only Virgin trains could have delivered such wonderful performance with the current WC franchise without offering any supporting evidence. Here is another opportunity to do so.....

 

[Olaf]

First Group shares down 2% this morning.

I'm guessing that the American investors will have Tim O'Toole out of his post in the not too distant future.
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And just one last thing. You know the cartoon infographic on Gov.UK? Is it me, or does the inside of the carriage look suspiciously like a 142?

Perhaps a "Bill Tidy" just stirring things up a bit.

 

[Stats]

So who set the class 319/365 livery? Wasn't it a requirement govia keep this livery or is it because thameslink is under management contract conditions that provides little incentive to come up with a new livery

There was no requirement that the TSGN livery be kept by the successful franchisee. Both the East Coast and TSGN liveries were designed with the intention that they could be used as the base for future branding when the franchises were re-let.

 

[Olaf]

One thing that seems to be commonplace across all the big bus operators is if they have a route which they are breaking even on or only making a small profit on, they want to get rid of it. Smaller operators seem happier to keep such routes and even take over such routes when bigger operators give up on them.

Generally it because the smaller operator has a lower cost base - marginal staff benefits, off over-head, - and they do not have a share-hold base that requires a minimum return on investment.
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They have been in a rush to run as many franchise awards as possible so that as few franchises as possible will expire during the next Government - the objective being to spike any attempt at renationalisation.

That is quite obviously not the case; franchise renewals have been delayed while the process was restructured to spread out the renewals because the bureaucrats could not cope with the work-load:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/363173/oct-2014-rail-franchise-schedule.pdf
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Last time Virgin were involved in a bid for the East Coast, they made a big thing about wanting to build new track to speed up journey times.

This time, in all the press and hype, there's no new exciting proposals about the new private sector franchisee investing in new infrastructure like Chilton did.

I think that their experience on the WCML upgrades will have cured them of that nievety.

 

[Deerfold]

That is quite obviously not the case; franchise renewals have been delayed while the process was restructured to spread out the renewals because the bureaucrats could not cope with the work-load:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/363173/oct-2014-rail-franchise-schedule.pdf
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No, but it does look as if EC was prioritised to get rid of the DOR-operated one (will plenty of others getting long franchise extensions).

 

[Olaf]

It never went to court !, so it's far from absolutely certain Bransons actions were totally correct and justified and watertight

There is plenty of evidence reported of was wrong to justify that the DfT 'was a national disgrace".
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This is a tawdry, dogmatic political decision designed to bind successive governments and cement in place a flawed (nay broken) system that rewards no one but the shareholders and directors of private industry with a vast outpouring of tax payers money - selling off a successful and profitable government owned business for no reason stinks. Lets see how much of the planned c.£3.5bn actually make sit way back to the government.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Interesting that one of the aims of privatisation was the increase of competition - all three North/South intercity franchises are either (in whole or part) in the hands of Stagecoach.

But at least the fans boys are happy. Isn’t it great they will paint the trains red. :roll:

Olde Worlde dogma.
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Since when has a 'meal' been a sandwich and a coffee? I think we'll need to see some detail of what this new system actually is first as to me it means ordering something a bit more substantial than just a sandwich.

Since the naughties at least.

 

[Carlisle]

they do not have a share-hold base that requires a minimum return on investment.
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A guy I work with that holds First Group shares said they haven't received a dividend for a few years now

 

[yorksrob]

Olde Worlde dogma.

First the free marketeers say everything has to be competition, claiming anything otherwise to be dogma, then when it's pointed out that actually there won't be any competition because the routes are all run by the same company, that's dogma as well.

Get like Bucks Fizz and make your minds up

 

[Olaf]

Funny, isn't it, how the Pendolino technology was created by British Railways. It was sold to Fiat Ferroviaria in the early 90s. Virgin simply bought BR technology back from the Italians.

The Italians made it into a viable working product.

 

[Deerfold]

The Italians made it into a viable working product.

Because their funding wasn't taken away.

 

[Olaf]

No, but it does look as if EC was prioritised to get rid of the DOR-operated one (will plenty of others getting long franchise extensions).

The DOR was in place for 4 years or more - that is just bureaucrats dragging their feet.
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A guy I know that holds First Group shares said they haven't received a dividend for a few years now

Yes, and he nearly went earlier this year. I'm not sure that he can survive this one, nor if he should.
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Because their funding wasn't taken away.

No, because they did a better job.

 

[tbtc]

Totally agree. In my opinion a disgrace that there was zero reporting from the BBC on prime time news slots for one of Britains most lucrative rail franchises.

How come people always complain about the BBC not covering a story prominently enough when there are plenty of other news outlets who didn't think it was important enough for big headlines?

I don't think any newspapers thought this significant enough to make a big front page splash (?)

Yes the SNP are normally very vocal on such matters.

However on this occasion, a total silence. I wonder why?

Presumably (political donation) money talks.

Ah, conspiracy theories... lovely.

The problem with this franchise that won't go away is the amount bid.
GNER failed at £1.3bn over 8 years
NXEC failed at £1.4bn over 7 years
DOR succeeded at £1bn over 5 years

Allegedly VTEC will pay £3.3bn over 8 years. More than twice as much as DOR and two previous failures couldn't even manage that.

The *only* way they can do this is via huge fare increases

As I've said before on the thread, people would be complaining if they were paying *less* to the treasury than DOR did ("they are making profits when that money could have gone to the hardworking British taxpayer" etc etc)...

...but when they are promising to pay more back then apparently they can only do this by screwing every last penny out of the passengers?

(as if Stagecoach/ First/ DB/ Eurostar wouldn't try to maximise revenue, regardless of the premium/subsidy levels?)

Note how the press release says "order" and not "have delivered". Burnley FC offer an "iPie" app (run by a company called Preoday) - you place your order at any time, then collect your order from the concession stand without having to queue with the rest of the pie buyers. I wonder if the proposed offering will be something similar.

Great idea!

I don't know about anybody else but I was a bit lost of what was being introduced when. So it helps me to recap on what we already know on service plans, and add some detail obtained from the regional press notices:

From December 2015:
New weekday service between London and Sunderland
New service between London and Falkirk, Stirling

From May 2016:
4 additional London-Edinburgh services
More Peterborough to Edinburgh services


From May 2019:
7 daily direct services between London, Stevenage and Lincoln
Direct weekday service to Huddersfield via Dewsbury, calling at Grantham
Sunderland service to call at Grantham and Newark NG
New direct links between Grantham and Harrogate, and between Newark North Gate and Leeds and Harrogate.
Faster journeys between Edinburgh and London
3tph between London and York
Additional 2 hourly trains between London and Bradford, Shipley and Harrogate

From May 2020:
New SET timetable with faster services
6 2-hourly weekday direct services between London and Middlesbrough
Second weekday direct service between London and Sunderland
Aberdeen and Inverness services call at Durham, Doncaster and Peterborough
15 minute improvement on journey times from Lincoln and 7 minutes from Retford
Faster journeys between Newcastle and Edinburgh


Stevenage to continue to be served by 2tph weekdays, extended to weekends from 2019.
Smart ticketing available between London, Stevenage and Peterborough.

Excellent post

It'd have been done sooner if DafT hadn't made such a horlicks of the WCML franchise bid. It's still been shoved through before the election

IF they were so desperate to flog off the ECML franchise at the first possibly opportunity then they had over two years between coming to power (May 2010) and the WCML problems (Autumn 2012).

Why not do it in those two and a bit years if they were so keen to return it to the private sector (on ideological grounds)?

But each of those positions is a legitimate argument.

If they had agreed premiums less than or equal to DOR's profit, then it's clear the franchise would have been undersold.

They're offering more than DOR then someone is going to have to pay for it. Given that economies of scale on HR won't save that much money, we're either going to see "private sector efficiency" producing the extra money, or that money will be coming out of the pockets of passengers (fare rises) or the taxpayer (cap-and-collar subsidy, which Souter is an expert at suing for

So, in short, you'd complain either way?

IF they had only promised to pay a tiny premium to the Government, would you be saying "this is great news, they'll not need to increase any fares"? Course not - you'd be pointing out that the taxpayer had a better deal under DOR. Can't win, can they?

Insanely Expensive Project

Doesn't help your case

It seems that the bid promising the highest premium wins when the only way they can make it work is to make the passenger suffer!

What's the alternative? Give it to the bidder who promises to pay the lowest premium, in the hope that they'll use the difference to reduce fares (and not put any into profits)?

Cap and collar is dead with these new franchises.
Instead there is some formula linked to GDP growth (or is it inflation?).
ie there is no fixed revenue target.

Interesting, cheers

I think if East Coast were to be branded as such, it can cause confusion if West Coast were not suitably rebranded.

Imagine someone asking, "When will the next Virgin service to London be"?

There's plenty of examples where different services between two places have the one brand of TOC.

People seem to manage at Edinburgh Waverley/ Haymarket with four different routes to Glasgow in the same ScotRail branding.

Passengers at Liverpool Lime Street have three different routes to Manchester all run by Northern branded trains.

It looks likely that the Transpennine franchise will have two very different Manchester - Hull routes later this decade.

 

[DarloRich]

I think it comes down to whether, or not, you feel that privatisation is a good thing.

I dont. I dont understand how anyone can support or defend such a broken system unless they are making good off the mess.

(Post edited to remove confusion around word "corrupted" - which was not meant to imply any form of improper behaviour on the party of any person!)

 

[6Gman]

A guy I work with that holds First Group shares said they haven't received a dividend for a few years now

First paid a dividend in 09/10, 10/11, 11/12 and 12/13 (though the latter was significantly reduced). Depends how you define "few" ....

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there any actual evidence of corruption? If so shouldn't someone inform the police?

 

[DarloRich]

Is there any actual evidence of corruption? If so shouldn't someone inform the police?

sorry i dont mean corrupted in that sense - I mean broken. As in the data has become corrupted

 

[ainsworth74]

Gotcha

 

[6Gman]

Stagecoach? lol this company cant even run a bus on time and now theyre given the ECML. What a lark.

Odd that, because the general view in the industry is that Stagecoach is the best of the three big bus operators .......

 

[Saint66]

Odd that, because the general view in the industry is that Stagecoach is the best of the three big bus operators .......

How dare you let common sense have a say!

 

[Lampshade]

No, but it does look as if EC was prioritised to get rid of the DOR-operated one (will plenty of others getting long franchise extensions).

Rushed through this year so Labour wouldn't be able to keep it nationalised should they win next year.

 

[Robertj21a]

Odd that, because the general view in the industry is that Stagecoach is the best of the three big bus operators .......

I think just about all bus companies, and the media, would accept that Stagecoach is the best bus operator, by quite some distance.

In any event, most delays to bus services are caused by the volume of private cars (some driven by idiots) and poor enforcement of road legislation.

 

[Olaf]

I think it comes down to whether, or not, you feel that privatisation is a good thing.

I dont. I dont understand how anyone can support or defend such a broken system unless they are making good off the mess.

(Post edited to remove confusion around word "corrupted" - which was not meant to imply any form of improper behaviour on the party of any person!)

I think all the dogma centres around the retention of railways under government control not the other way around. Anyone with experience of the railways under BR will know why nationalisation is a bad idea.

 

[DarloRich]

I think all the dogma centres around the retention of railways under government control not the other way around. Anyone with experience of the railways under BR will know why nationalisation is a bad idea.

please do enlighten us. .

I assume, therefore, that you consider the sale of a profitable and successful publicly owned company a good thing. Please explain why.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

please do enlighten us. .

I assume, therefore, that you consider the sale of a profitable and successful publicly owned company a good thing. Please explain why.

I would like the Con-Dem coalition to explain as they haven't really.
Investment and competition is the made up nonsense they claim.
But the new trains which will provide the new services are paid for by DfT not Virgin. Also people rarely chose who they travel with.

 

[ainsworth74]

When did Labour say they'd keep East Coast operated by DOR? I'm asking seriously because everyone appears to be operating under the impression that they would have hence why the Conservatives re-franchised now. I wasn't aware that they had committed to doing that.

 

[DarloRich]

When did Labour say they'd keep East Coast operated by DOR? I'm asking seriously because everyone appears to be operating under the impression that they would have hence why the Conservatives re-franchised now. I wasn't aware that they had committed to doing that.

regardless the timing means they have no option but to accept it for a considerable period of time, making any plans to change the ownership model of our railways much harder.
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btw was unhappiness with this mess isn't because Virgin won - it would be the same if First/Keolis/Arriva/Bob Smith Rail etc won.

The winner doesn't make the competition any less wrong in my eyes.

 

[ainsworth74]

But is nationalisation even on Labour's radar? I haven't heard anything to suggest it is. Last I heard the most they were going to do was have DOR (or an equivalent) bid along side the private companies to make sure the bids were value for money.

 

[RichmondCommu]

@Richmondcommu - you have said several times that only Virgin trains could have delivered such wonderful performance with the current WC franchise without offering any supporting evidence. Here is another opportunity to do so.....

I've already given my reasons as to why I feel Virgin are doing in my opinion a very good job of running the WCML franchise. I also compared them to three other TOC's which I either use or have used in the recent past. If I recall correctly it was thenorthern who suggested that only Virgin could have delivered such wonderful performance. Indeed I have already agreed with Deerfold that perhaps thenorthern's suggestion was perhaps a little far fetched.

However, I am concerned that you appear on the face of it to becoming obessed with both myself and the Virgin WCML franchise.

 

[DarloRich]

But is nationalisation even on Labour's radar? I haven't heard anything to suggest it is. Last I heard the most they were going to do was have DOR (or an equivalent) bid along side the private companies to make sure the bids were value for money.

Agreed - but it IS on the agenda of unions and others who contribute to the Labour party - but to voice such heresy doesn't seem to be allowed.

Best details are: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28349630 or http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/03/labour-rail-shakeup-nationalisation-off-agenda

The system we have now doesn't work. We need a new one. The performance of DOR shows that. Still waiting for a justification for this sell off........
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I've already given my reasons as to why I feel Virgin are doing in my opinion a very good job of running the WCML franchise. I also compared them to three other TOC's which I either use or have used in the recent past. If I recall correctly it was thenorthern who suggested that only Virgin could have delivered such wonderful performance. Indeed I have already agreed with Deerfold that perhaps thenorthern's suggestion was perhaps a little far fetched.

However, I am concerned that you appear on the face of it to becoming obessed with both myself and the Virgin WCML franchise.

Sadly you haven't. You have made a number of statements without any actual evidence. You have made the same statements again above. Have another go......

I also note that you seem very keen to try to rubbish anyone who doesn't share your opinion. Why is that? Are you unable to debate a point?