Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Chrisgr31]

Meanwhile getting back to the original point about extra trains to Uckfield. Whilst we are made to suffer, no cuts to Uckfield or East Grinstead and they are supplying additional trains to improve their commute.

Most Redhill Route commuters are feeling a bit unfairly dealt with at the moment, especially as fares are lower along the lines they are improving.

RANT 2 over - sorry guys

Slight flaw in your argument is tht cutting the diesel services will not help you at all. The Edenbridge travellers will go via Redhill, and the Uckfield passengers via Haywards Heath.

You'll therefore have even more people on your already busy trains.

Its also worth considering that the Uckfield line used to have a truly appalling service, changing at Oxted etc. At that time a one carriage service would have carried all the passengers.

Southern have invested heavily in the service, it is now profitable. Why would they throw away that investment?

 

[Minstral25]

Slight flaw in your argument is tht cutting the diesel services will not help you at all. The Edenbridge travellers will go via Redhill, and the Uckfield passengers via Haywards Heath.

You'll therefore have even more people on your already busy trains.

Its also worth considering that the Uckfield line used to have a truly appalling service, changing at Oxted etc. At that time a one carriage service would have carried all the passengers.

Southern have invested heavily in the service, it is now profitable. Why would they throw away that investment?

It's a annoyed rant not an argument. Please feel free not to take it too seriously

However, Edenbridge had just over 300k exits and entries last year, Redhill route stations had 9.7 million - it would only be a small dent. And considering the annual passenger capacity cut from Redhill in the morning peak is a just under 800k souls, we could squeeze the Edenbridge customers in and still gain 500k capacity.

On Haywards Heath, the few trains which would go via Redhill are all overtaken by faster trains to London - so the Uckfield guys would use the faster trains and not disturb us.

Stats courtesy of the network Rail station usage charts.

 

[59CosG95]

Apparently, from December that the Newcraighall service becomes a self-contained shuttle from Waverley, as opposed to extensions of Fife services. Would this allow these to worked by EMUs, possibly 380s on the North Berwick circuit? Would partly explain how ScotRail can give up 4x 170s - 3x 156s/158s displaced from Whifflet plus this extra one from Newcraighall, which essentially only ever occupies one unit at a time (perhaps a pair at peak times). Ideas? I can't recall if the Newcraighall platform line is actually wired - I think so, but not sure.

Yes, the Newcraighall line is wired, but only where the OHLE currently exists at the platforms.

 

[SC318250]

Shouldnt be an issue for electrics to use unless there is something coming through the platform

 

[childwallblues]

Now hearing 405-415 could be away as well as lease is up soon. All but 412 are in original colours and interior. 158867-871, 782, 786 and 789 are going to corkerhill and allegedly extra 158s are in the middle of a refurb to come up here.

2 loco haul sets coming back apparently as well. None of this gospel only what's being said in the run up to the December timetable change.

Could 405-415 be going to TPE?

 

[Scotrail84]

Could 405-415 be going to TPE?

They might be. 401-424 are all un refurbished except 412 and 418 which have had the External logo transfers placed done. I don't think they have had the internal refits that 425-434 450-461 470-478 have all had.

Also 393-396 have all been done up inside and out. Seems like a waste of money to that then lose the units to another operator so they can rip out then refit the interior.

 

[SC318250]

Are C6 not the responsibility of the rosco, where as C4 is the lessor?

 

[tom1649]

Apparently, from December that the Newcraighall service becomes a self-contained shuttle from Waverley, as opposed to extensions of Fife services. Would this allow these to worked by EMUs, possibly 380s on the North Berwick circuit? Would partly explain how ScotRail can give up 4x 170s - 3x 156s/158s displaced from Whifflet plus this extra one from Newcraighall, which essentially only ever occupies one unit at a time (perhaps a pair at peak times). Ideas? I can't recall if the Newcraighall platform line is actually wired - I think so, but not sure.

Class 322s have worked to Newcraighall in the past. See the lead article in this newsletter: http://www.rages.org.uk/downloads/Rag16.PDF

 

[LBSCR Times]

, and the Uckfield passengers via Haywards Heath.

Not at the moment unless they're in the car park by 7am!
With the reduction in car parking at Haywards Heath due to rebuilding work, if you're not in there early, no matter where you live, you won't get a parking place.
And as for the suggestion of either Balcombe or Burgess Hill whilst rebuilding work is going on, neither is practical if you live east of Haywards Heath.

 

[Scotrail84]

A few 158s are going to corkerhill. Mainly 867-871, 786/789 and 782. Expect to lose turbos 393-396 in the coming months.

 

[59CosG95]

A few 158s are going to corkerhill. Mainly 867-871, 786/789 and 782. Expect to lose turbos 393-396 in the coming months.

To Selhurst, I presume? (It could be one of the overhaul places (e.g. Eastleigh))

 

[SC318250]

A few 158s are going to corkerhill. Mainly 867-871, 786/789 and 782. Expect to lose turbos 393-396 in the coming months.

What they going to Corkerhill for?

As West Highland units following refurb

 

[Scotrail84]

To Selhurst, I presume? (It could be one of the overhaul places (e.g. Eastleigh))

Not sure where they are going depot wise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What they going to Corkerhill for?

As West Highland units following refurb

Not entirely sure but they need an allocation of 158s through there to maintain competency amongst crews and fitters alike. I find it highly unlikely theses units will be on the west highland runs, these units are not exactly pride of the fleet.

I believe the 156's, if they don't go to another operator will be heading to the big scrap heap in the sky in the coming years when cascaded hsts start on Scotrail services up here. There was talk at one point of the 156's being transferred to Inverness but this has not come to fruition.

Several 380s in the future will be fitted with 1st class and things to make them more comfortable as they will be used on the berwick and Newcastle runs, possibly configured to run at higher speeds as well.

 

[deltic08]

Not sure where they are going depot wise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not entirely sure but they need an allocation of 158s through there to maintain competency amongst crews and fitters alike. I find it highly unlikely theses units will be on the west highland runs, these units are not exactly pride of the fleet.

I believe the 156's, if they don't go to another operator will be heading to the big scrap heap in the sky in the coming years when cascaded hsts start on Scotrail services up here. There was talk at one point of the 156's being transferred to Inverness but this has not come to fruition.

Several 380s in the future will be fitted with 1st class and things to make them more comfortable as they will be used on the berwick and Newcastle runs, possibly configured to run at higher speeds as well.

And Newcastle?

The North of England will take any 156s looking for a home to allow Pacer withdrawal

 

[Scotrail84]

And Newcastle?



The North of England will take any 156s looking for a home to allow Pacer withdrawal

Yes, seemingly Newcastle services calling at Dunbar, Berwick, alnmouth and Morpeth are planned in the next 3-5 years.

156s have an issue as they can't fit toilet retention tanks to them, if this can't be overcome then they have to be withdrawn by a certain year.

 

[sprinterguy]

156s have an issue as they can't fit toilet retention tanks to them, if this can't be overcome then they have to be withdrawn by a certain year.

Yes they can. The refurbished Greater Anglia units have already had toilet retention tanks fitted:

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2013.html
02.01.13

Railcare Delivers First Fully Compliant Class 156 to Porterbrook

Railcare has delivered back into service the first Class 156 unit for Greater Anglia after undergoing an extensive refurbishment and overhaul programme.

This first two-car unit, 156402, was returned to service on 4 th December after receiving a complete interior overhaul as part of the planned C6 maintenance programme, including new carpets, dado panels and seat covers. The scope also includes a heavy clean of the interior, full exterior repaint and fitment of controlled emission toilet retention tanks.

 

[northwichcat]

156s have an issue as they can't fit toilet retention tanks to them, if this can't be overcome then they have to be withdrawn by a certain year.

All the Sprinters can have accessible retention toilets fitted. Porterbrook have found a way of fitting them to the 150s as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, seemingly Newcastle services calling at Dunbar, Berwick, alnmouth and Morpeth are planned in the next 3-5 years.

I'm surprised. They were a suggested option in the recent Scotrail ITT, albeit with a pretty lukewarm business case, but they haven't been mentioned at all since then, either by TS or by the winning bidder, as far as I am aware.

Unless you have heard something more detailed since?

Or maybe they are waiting a few days to trot it out (as an amazing example of cross border co-operation) at the same time as the ECML decision?

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm surprised. They were a suggested option in the recent Scotrail ITT, albeit with a pretty lukewarm business case, but they haven't been mentioned at all since then, either by TS or by the winning bidder, as far as I am aware.

Unless you have heard something more detailed since?

Or maybe they are waiting a few days to trot it out (as an amazing example of cross border co-operation) at the same time as the ECML decision?

Heard today that route learning for berwick will start at the end of next year.

 

[59CosG95]

Could it be a Northern/Scotrail joint service? i.e. Scotrail Edinburgh-Berwick, and Northern Berwick-Newcastle.

 

[Scotrail84]

Could it be a Northern/Scotrail joint service? i.e. Scotrail Edinburgh-Berwick, and Northern Berwick-Newcastle.

No, I don't think this will be the case.

 

[deltic08]

Yes, seemingly Newcastle services calling at Dunbar, Berwick, alnmouth and Morpeth are planned in the next 3-5 years.

Great news. In that case would it be possible to combine this service with TPEx and have Liverpool/Manchester/Bradford FS-Leeds-York-Edinburgh through service post electrification and speed up East Coast between Newcastle and Edinburgh by reducing number of stops?

Some of the lesser stations between Morpeth and Berwick may also benefit from more than only one train each way each day.

 

[Altnabreac]

I'm surprised. They were a suggested option in the recent Scotrail ITT, albeit with a pretty lukewarm business case, but they haven't been mentioned at all since then, either by TS or by the winning bidder, as far as I am aware.

Unless you have heard something more detailed since?

Or maybe they are waiting a few days to trot it out (as an amazing example of cross border co-operation) at the same time as the ECML decision?

The Berwick - Edinburgh service will be a two hourly extension of the existing Dunbars commencing December 2016. Was announced last week.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-30112935

It's hoped that new stations at East Linton and Reston will be up and running on a similar timescale.

Any extension south of Berwick depends on co-operation with other (as yet unlet) franchises so won't be announced yet.

Options are:

TPE extensions have been proposed but with a lack of available DMU stock you'd think it's unlikely until after Manchester - York is wired. If First had won Scotrail I believe linking the 2 was definitely on the cards. Once it's wired and there is a new franchisee.... Why not

Northern Morpeth services.
2 issues here, lack of electrification to Metrocentre so would lose that direct service. Also short platforms at Cramlington could be problematic but 380s have SDO so presumably can be overcome?

Could see stations like Pegswood and Widdrington justifying a couple of extra calls as well.

A new service would also support the proposed Belford station as well. A GRIP4 study was promised "Soon" earlier in the year but I haven't seen anything yet.

 

[Shempz]

With an extra 4 units, assume 3 diagrammed, so;
06.34 Uckfield to London Bridge (6 car)
07.08 Uckfield to London Bridge (8 car)
07.34 Uckfield to London Bridge (6 car) - 4 & 2 becomes 3 & 3 & 2 = 8
08.04 Uckfield to London Bridge (4 car) - single 4 plus 4 displaced from 0734 or extra 3, thus 7 or 8 car.
08.34 Uckfield to London Bridge (2 car) - single 2 plus 4 from 0734 or extra 3, thus 5 or 6 car.

A nice rise in capacity, however the game pans out.... If they risk diagramming the 4th unit M to F, even better.

the 6.34 needs to be an 8 carriage going forward. I get on at Ashurst, and its standing room only by then! I remember the days when it was a 4 carriage train, then they messed with the timetables about 5 or 6yrs ago, which meant the number of people getting on it nearly doubled overnight - and it was worse than a veal crate. Making it a 6 carriage alleviated the problem for a while, but its getting bad again.

Does anyone know if Govia/Thameslink plan to change the timetable at all on the Uckfield line. It bugs me that the last train to Uckfield (23:04) does not stop at Ashurst, yet it stops at Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham - and these stations (which I suppose are technically on the East Grinstead line) have another train just 20mins later out of Victoria.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Berwick - Edinburgh service will be a two hourly extension of the existing Dunbars commencing December 2016. Was announced last week.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-30112935

It's hoped that new stations at East Linton and Reston will be up and running on a similar timescale.

Any extension south of Berwick depends on co-operation with other (as yet unlet) franchises so won't be announced yet.

Thanks I hadn't seen that.

Still a bit odd that they didn't explicitly mention there was already a planned service to Berwick though. But it is implied because that would need to be agreed to add the calls into it. Is there a source briefing from Transport Scotland perhaps?

 

[physics34]

the 6.34 needs to be an 8 carriage going forward. I get on at Ashurst, and its standing room only by then! I remember the days when it was a 4 carriage train, then they messed with the timetables about 5 or 6yrs ago, which meant the number of people getting on it nearly doubled overnight - and it was worse than a veal crate. Making it a 6 carriage alleviated the problem for a while, but its getting bad again.

Does anyone know if Govia/Thameslink plan to change the timetable at all on the Uckfield line. It bugs me that the last train to Uckfield (23:04) does not stop at Ashurst, yet it stops at Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham - and these stations (which I suppose are technically on the East Grinstead line) have another train just 20mins later out of Victoria.

No plans. Not sure why the 23.04 doesn't stop at these. Can see that it's a bit unfair!
Sanderstead and UW are pretty busy.

 

[Altnabreac]

Thanks I hadn't seen that.

Still a bit odd that they didn't explicitly mention there was already a planned service to Berwick though. But it is implied because that would need to be agreed to add the calls into it. Is there a source briefing from Transport Scotland perhaps?

The extra Berwick services by 2016 is the only thing that has actually been definitely announced. The full Transport Scotland press release is here:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/stations-plan-track

Although it focuses heavily on the potential new stations it's actually merely saying that the priced option in the Scotrail ITT for extra Dunbar - Berwick services will be taken up from December 2016.

The stations will need a separate Scottish Stations Fund bid to be approved. Latest report (jointly for East Lothian and Scottish Borders) is here:
http://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/1526/public_and_community_transport/1335/reston_station_project

As you say the BCR is lukewarm but that is mainly due to the extra services rather than the station capital cost. Now the extra services are announced the BCR for adding stops into it (especially when timings are designed for stops anyway) will be much better thus allowing funding from the SSF to go ahead.

Fly in the ointment might be a reluctance / inability to provide match / partner funding from the councils. John Lamont MSP already complaining on that front.

I'd certainly expect the stations to be approved though, with construction starting in 2015 or 2016 and stations opening 2016 or 2017.

Any services south of Berwick can't be procured by Transport Scotland but it certainly shouldn't be beyond the wit of Northern and Transpennine bidders to realise there are potential synergies and hopefully DfT can co-ordinate such services into the new franchise(s).

 

[swt_passenger]

The extra Berwick services by 2016 is the only thing that has actually been definitely announced. The full Transport Scotland press release is here:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/stations-plan-track

Although it focuses heavily on the potential new stations it's actually merely saying that the priced option in the Scotrail ITT for extra Dunbar - Berwick services will be taken up from December 2016.

The stations will need a separate Scottish Stations Fund bid to be approved. Latest report (jointly for East Lothian and Scottish Borders) is here:
http://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/1526/public_and_community_transport/1335/reston_station_project

As you say the BCR is lukewarm but that is mainly due to the extra services rather than the station capital cost. Now the extra services are announced the BCR for adding stops into it (especially when timings are designed for stops anyway) will be much better thus allowing funding from the SSF to go ahead.

Fly in the ointment might be a reluctance / inability to provide match / partner funding from the councils. John Lamont MSP already complaining on that front.

I'd certainly expect the stations to be approved though, with construction starting in 2015 or 2016 and stations opening 2016 or 2017.

Any services south of Berwick can't be procured by Transport Scotland but it certainly shouldn't be beyond the wit of Northern and Transpennine bidders to realise there are potential synergies and hopefully DfT can co-ordinate such services into the new franchise(s).

Thanks a lot for digging all that out - and the TS statement makes it all much clearer than the BBC's distilled version of the announcement.

It isn't exactly headline stuff down here in Hampshire...

 

[Altnabreac]

Thanks a lot for digging all that out - it isn't exactly headline stuff down here in Hampshire...

Barely made the headlines up here so far!

I'm sure it will be more in the public eye come Holyrood elections in May 2016 and I suspect ongoing construction work at that point with services due to start shortly afterwards would be a happy outcome for the politicians...

 

[JonathanH]

the 6.34 needs to be an 8 carriage going forward. I get on at Ashurst, and its standing room only by then! I remember the days when it was a 4 carriage train, then they messed with the timetables about 5 or 6yrs ago, which meant the number of people getting on it nearly doubled overnight - and it was worse than a veal crate. Making it a 6 carriage alleviated the problem for a while, but its getting bad again.

Does anyone know if Govia/Thameslink plan to change the timetable at all on the Uckfield line. It bugs me that the last train to Uckfield (23:04) does not stop at Ashurst, yet it stops at Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham - and these stations (which I suppose are technically on the East Grinstead line) have another train just 20mins later out of Victoria.

It would seem quite unlikely that the Uckfield line timetable will change. The Oxted line services (East Grinstead and Uckfield) seem to keep its existing paths in the proposed December 2015 off-peak timetable (and that will form the basis for the eventual 2018 timetable).

Given the December 2015 consultation currently underway, it would make sense to make your comment about stops in the last train to them at this opportunity.