Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously, not even a permit to travel machine?!

They could always add one, SWT have one at Beaulieu Road which is about as quiet as you get on their network. Wasn't working when I tried to use it ages ago though

Neil

 

[hwl]

I wonder why TPEx didn't nip in and nab them or arrange for them to go to Chiltern and keep their own 170s on the Hulls?

TSGN (will) have the cash TPE don't. At the beginning of this thread it was mentioned that it wouldn't need any subsidy...

Each additional vehicle will bring in extra ticket revenue between £165k (100% of pax from East Croydon) and £400k (100% of pax from Uckfield) per annum depending on how far the passengers travel (conservatively based on 100% season tickets and just 1 peak fully loaded journey in both peaks on weekdays - in reality it could be almost double as a vehicle could do 2 journeys in the peak flow direction each peak).

( 2015 fare increases not included in estimate)

 

[D6975]

I read yesterday (in Modern Railways IIRC) that 9 x 3 car 170s are going to Southern.
5 of them however are being immediately subleased back to Scotrail, not moving South till later, rather like the situation with the TP 170s going to Chiltern, but not going (yet).

These extra 5 units change the situation somewhat. It is speculated that this will see Southern lose some of its 2 car 171s.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I read yesterday (in Modern Railways IIRC) that 9 x 3 car 170s are going to Southern.
5 of them however are being immediately subleased back to Scotrail, not moving South till later, rather like the situation with the TP 170s going to Chiltern, but not going (yet).

These extra 5 units change the situation somewhat. It is speculated that this will see Southern lose some of its 2 car 171s.

Ahhh that would explain why Southern say that the intention is to lengthen the existing services to 8 cars and increasing provide enough cariages to aloow Southern to lengthen the trains to 10 units.

Currently the 5.15 is 4, the 5.45 is 2, the 6.25 is 6, the 7.05 is 8 and the 7.30 is 6, the trains after that are the same units on second journey.

So you need 14 carriages to make all 8, and 24 to make all 10. Southern are only getting 12 initially but 18 in total.

Doesn't seem they will be able to release any 2 car 171s?

 

[JamesRowden]

Ahhh that would explain why Southern say that the intention is to lengthen the existing services to 8 cars and increasing provide enough cariages to aloow Southern to lengthen the trains to 10 units.

Currently the 5.15 is 4, the 5.45 is 2, the 6.25 is 6, the 7.05 is 8 and the 7.30 is 6, the trains after that are the same units on second journey.

So you need 14 carriages to make all 8, and 24 to make all 10. Southern are only getting 12 initially but 18 in total.

Doesn't seem they will be able to release any 2 car 171s?

I suspect that not all of those services need to be 10-car. Perhaps some can be 6 or 8 car.

 

[hwl]

I suspect that not all of those services need to be 10-car. Perhaps some can be 6 or 8 car.

Lengthening the Uckfield services is the easiest way to increase capacity (as they are the shortest formed services) into London Bridge from East Croydon and the stations immediately to the south till the full Thameslink service is up and running in 4 years time.

 

[JamesRowden]

Lengthening the Uckfield services is the easiest way to increase capacity (as they are the shortest formed services) into London Bridge from East Croydon and the stations immediately to the south till the full Thameslink service is up and running in 4 years time.

My point is that demand is not constant over the 2.5 hours spread that these services run into London Bridge during the peak. If a 10 car is needed on the service that arrives at 8:24, it doesn't necessarily mean that a 10 Car is needed on a 6:24 or 9:24 arrival.

 

[physics34]

My point is that demand is not constant over the 2.5 hours spread that these services run into London Bridge during the peak. If a 10 car is needed on the service that arrives at 8:24, it doesn't necessarily mean that a 10 Car is needed on a 6:24 or 9:24 arrival.

yep 10 car wouldnt be needed on all services, just the 06.34 and 07.08 departures really.

 

[Chrisgr31]

yep 10 car wouldnt be needed on all services, just the 06.34 and 07.08 departures really.

The franchise requirement appears to be for 3 of them to be 10 car, they currently have 26, arguably might be getting another 18 in total, so 44 in total. 30 of those will be required to run the 3 ten car trains leaving 14 for the other 2. A 6 and 8.

Only releases some if one decides they dont need 6 or 8 on the other two, oh and assuming none are needed in maintenance.

 

[JamesRowden]

The franchise requirement appears to be for 3 of them to be 10 car, they currently have 26, arguably might be getting another 18 in total, so 44 in total. 30 of those will be required to run the 3 ten car trains leaving 14 for the other 2. A 6 and 8.

Only releases some if one decides they dont need 6 or 8 on the other two, oh and assuming none are needed in maintenance.

D6975 stated that Southern might be getting an additional 27 carriages in total (ignoring 2-cars that might leave Southern). If we assume 7 3-cars of the 9 3-cars will be in service we can have the following trains:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 2+4+3 (9)
• 2+4+2 (8)

If the four Uckfield 2-car sets were cascaded away it would still leave:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 4+3 (7)
• 4 (4)

 

[bramling]

The franchise requirement appears to be for 3 of them to be 10 car, they currently have 26, arguably might be getting another 18 in total, so 44 in total. 30 of those will be required to run the 3 ten car trains leaving 14 for the other 2. A 6 and 8.

Only releases some if one decides they dont need 6 or 8 on the other two, oh and assuming none are needed in maintenance.

So no enhancement for Ashford-Brighton, which also badly needs extra capacity. Unlike Uckfield, these trains are overcrowded right through the day, we're not just talking about a couple of peak trains.

Having said that, the issue could be largely avoided at a stroke by dividing the service at either Eastbourne or Hastings, with the Brighton part being covered by an Electrostar.

 

[Chrisgr31]

D6975 stated that Southern might be getting an additional 27 carriages in total (ignoring 2-cars that might leave Southern). If we assume 7 3-cars of the 9 3-cars will be in service we can have the following trains:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 2+4+3 (9)
• 2+4+2 (8)

If the four Uckfield 2-car sets were cascaded away it would still leave:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 4+3 (7)
• 4 (4)

But they need 5 trains to run the service, unless they are going to cut several of the trains out the timetable which seems to rather defeat the whole purpose. They have anough units to run those three services as that now, but still need another 2 trains.

 

[Class377/5]

So no enhancement for Ashford-Brighton, which also badly needs extra capacity. Unlike Uckfield, these trains are overcrowded right through the day, we're not just talking about a couple of peak trains.

Having said that, the issue could be largely avoided at a stroke by dividing the service at either Eastbourne or Hastings, with the Brighton part being covered by an Electrostar.

The problem is the majority of travels would be forced to change trains meaning it would lead the attractiveness of the service.

As regards to the units, the initial units are to be converted with the remaining units with ScotRail may not actually leave before the end of GTR franchise.

 

[TheJRB]

So no enhancement for Ashford-Brighton, which also badly needs extra capacity. Unlike Uckfield, these trains are overcrowded right through the day, we're not just talking about a couple of peak trains.

Having said that, the issue could be largely avoided at a stroke by dividing the service at either Eastbourne or Hastings, with the Brighton part being covered by an Electrostar.

The problem is the majority of travels would be forced to change trains meaning it would lead the attractiveness of the service.

As regards to the units, the initial units are to be converted with the remaining units with ScotRail may not actually leave before the end of GTR franchise.

Indeed. Unfortunately not all passengers are familiar with the processes of the railway which means that cutting the service into two is simply not viable and to reiterate, has been definitively ruled out in the new franchise agreement.

I agree however that in a world somewhat closer to an ideal, it could sensibly be split once again as it used to, at Hastings. On one weekend last year when such an arrangement was in place, I was on a train from Ashford that was delayed by a couple of minutes and the whole process of leaving the train at platform 4 to departing aboard the train at platform 3 was done in precisely a minute! Good going if you ask me and saves running an overcrowded two car diesel to Brighton (on this occasion however it was a four car 171 on the Marshlink for the Rye Bonfire). Sadly I can't see this ever being done regularly as there would be realistic concerns from passengers that the connection wouldn't be made or that the Brighton train would not be held for a late running Marshlink train.

 

[JamesRowden]

D6975 stated that Southern might be getting an additional 27 carriages in total (ignoring 2-cars that might leave Southern). If we assume 7 3-cars of the 9 3-cars will be in service we can have the following trains:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 2+4+3 (9)
• 2+4+2 (8)

If the four Uckfield 2-car sets were cascaded away it would still leave:

• 3+4+3 (10) X3
• 4+3 (7)
• 4 (4)

But they need 5 trains to run the service, unless they are going to cut several of the trains out the timetable which seems to rather defeat the whole purpose. They have anough units to run those three services as that now, but still need another 2 trains.

My suggestions do include five trains.

Perhaps you misread my earler suggestions. I have made them clearer below.

With 2-cars

• 3+4+3 (10)
• 3+4+3 (10)
• 3+4+3 (10)
• 2+4+3 (9)
• 2+4+2 (8)

Without 2-cars

• 3+4+3 (10)
• 3+4+3 (10)
• 3+4+3 (10)
• 4+3 (7)
• 4 (4)

 

[Minstral25]

Lengthening the Uckfield services is the easiest way to increase capacity (as they are the shortest formed services) into London Bridge from East Croydon and the stations immediately to the south till the full Thameslink service is up and running in 4 years time.

No - the easiest way to increase capacity is to run extra 12 car electric trains through Redhill where demand considerably outstrips supply and stop Uckfield trains at East Croydon as they have very little demand after Oxted! Short trains filling up Capacity

Not that politics would ever allow common sense to happen as Uckfield seems to have a huge disproportionate political sway

 

[The Ham]

Is there a location where a southbound train could leave a portion to be picked up by a northbound train, so that the southern section has shorter trains but providing more 10 coach trains into London.

 

[ctrh136]

Is there a location where a southbound train could leave a portion to be picked up by a northbound train, so that the southern section has shorter trains but providing more 10 coach trains into London.

I can't see that being possible as it would mess up the timetable with all the single track sections and also the East Grinstead services. Oxted would be the most likely option.

 

[physics34]

Is there a location where a southbound train could leave a portion to be picked up by a northbound train, so that the southern section has shorter trains but providing more 10 coach trains into London.

TBH stations south of Oxted need most of the coaches..... the 8 car service in the PM peak is full and standing at Edenbridge town.

 

[158722]

Apparently, from December that the Newcraighall service becomes a self-contained shuttle from Waverley, as opposed to extensions of Fife services. Would this allow these to worked by EMUs, possibly 380s on the North Berwick circuit? Would partly explain how ScotRail can give up 4x 170s - 3x 156s/158s displaced from Whifflet plus this extra one from Newcraighall, which essentially only ever occupies one unit at a time (perhaps a pair at peak times). Ideas? I can't recall if the Newcraighall platform line is actually wired - I think so, but not sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apparently, from December that the Newcraighall service becomes a self-contained shuttle from Waverley, as opposed to extensions of Fife services. Would this allow these to worked by EMUs, possibly 380s on the North Berwick circuit?

Isn't the split a precursor to the Borders re-opening though?

 

[Chrisgr31]

No - the easiest way to increase capacity is to run extra 12 car electric trains through Redhill where demand considerably outstrips supply and stop Uckfield trains at East Croydon as they have very little demand after Oxted! Short trains filling up Capacity

Not that politics would ever allow common sense to happen as Uckfield seems to have a huge disproportionate political sway

Ummm have you actually travelled on the Uckfield line? In the morning peak all trains are full and standing on leaving Edenbridge and many on leaving Eridge.

In the evening many are full and standing as far as Edenbridge. Certainly friends of mine who travel from Oxted now avoid the diesels because they werent getting seats and usee the electrics instead.

 

[Starmill]

Seriously, not even a permit to travel machine?!

Indeed! Pevensey Bay has a full blown card-only TVM on the way!

 

[Southern Dvr]

No - the easiest way to increase capacity is to run extra 12 car electric trains through Redhill where demand considerably outstrips supply and stop Uckfield trains at East Croydon as they have very little demand after Oxted! Short trains filling up Capacity

Not that politics would ever allow common sense to happen as Uckfield seems to have a huge disproportionate political sway

Conveniently or maybe coincidentally I see you hail from 'near the Redhill'

I find this notion that the Uckfield line trains are somehow 'carting fresh air about' intriguing, what basis do you have for this remark? The ones I drive (all of them!) are usually very busy to/from Crowborough.

 

[Minstral25]

Conveniently or maybe coincidentally I see you hail from 'near the Redhill'

I find this notion that the Uckfield line trains are somehow 'carting fresh air about' intriguing, what basis do you have for this remark? The ones I drive (all of them!) are usually very busy to/from Crowborough.

We're just jealous of all the attention that Uckfield line gets - yes 2, 4 and probably 6 coach trains are too short.

Currently certain am Peak trains on the Redhill route to London Bridge are so full you can't get on or near as possible. Using Redhill times. The 6:33 to LBG/BFR is standing only, 6:43 to LBG too full from Coulsdon onwards, 06:56 LBG tight standing only, 7:15 LBG full by Coulsdon, 7:40 LBG Full from Merstham, 7:51 LBG too many passengers to get on from Redhill. Next train is 8:40 then - too late for most passengers

From January 2015 the 06:56 and 7:51 are being cut because of the London Bridge works and passengers asked to use equivalently overcrowded Victoria services and change at East Croydon into 6 or 8 coach Uckfield trains amongst others.

What would be better - 12 coaches through East Croydon from Redhill or 6/8 coaches from Uckfield for passengers to change into at East Croydon?

All the trains are packed and trains have to be cut into London Bridge - why take through from East Croydon the shorter formations? Seems silly to me.

Sorry bit of a rant but I am really dreading the commute in January!

 

[JonathanH]

We're just jealous of all the attention that Uckfield line gets - yes 2, 4 and probably 6 coach trains are too short.

Currently certain am Peak trains on the Redhill route to London Bridge are so full you can't get on or near as possible. Using Redhill times. The 6:33 to LBG/BFR is standing only, 6:43 to LBG too full from Coulsdon onwards, 06:56 LBG tight standing only, 7:15 LBG full by Coulsdon, 7:40 LBG Full from Merstham, 7:51 LBG too many passengers to get on from Redhill. Next train is 8:40 then - too late for most passengers

From January 2015 the 06:56 and 7:51 are being cut because of the London Bridge works and passengers asked to use equivalently overcrowded Victoria services and change at East Croydon into 6 or 8 coach Uckfield trains amongst others.

What would be better - 12 coaches through East Croydon from Redhill or 6/8 coaches from Uckfield for passengers to change into at East Croydon?

All the trains are packed and trains have to be cut into London Bridge - why take through from East Croydon the shorter formations? Seems silly to me.

Sorry bit of a rant but I am really dreading the commute in January!

It is only four years of pain though isn't it. From December 2018, there should be four twelve coach trains an hour from Redhill to London Bridge / Thameslink (assuming that the two routes through Redhill actually have twelve-coach trains allocated and not the eight-coach versions - is this known?)

Does the peak timetable change again in December 2015 alongside the off-peak changes?

 

[Shempz]

Seriously, not even a permit to travel machine?!

Yes, there is a Permit to Travel machine - they installed one at Ashurst about 5 years ago I think. However to be honest, the red "not working" light is on at least 50% of the time!

 

[Scotrail84]

Now hearing 405-415 could be away as well as lease is up soon. All but 412 are in original colours and interior. 158867-871, 782, 786 and 789 are going to corkerhill and allegedly extra 158s are in the middle of a refurb to come up here.

2 loco haul sets coming back apparently as well. None of this gospel only what's being said in the run up to the December timetable change.

 

[Minstral25]

It is only four years of pain though isn't it. From December 2018, there should be four twelve coach trains an hour from Redhill to London Bridge / Thameslink (assuming that the two routes through Redhill actually have twelve-coach trains allocated and not the eight-coach versions - is this known?)

Does the peak timetable change again in December 2015 alongside the off-peak changes?

Only 4 years - let's be fair the current situation before these cuts is very bad. My estimate with the extended journey times and cut/diverted trains is that the journey will have an extra 40-50 minutes every day.

Taking 40 minutes, that's 220 days a year actually working in the office and thus commuting, 40 mins x 220 is 8,800 minutes per year or 146.5 hours per year or 6 days extra spent on train commuting.

The commute itself will be less pleasant with all the changes at East Croydon and standing in overcrowded carriages etc.

Yes, it will be great in Jan 2019 when we have our shiny trains and a decent timetable but for the next four years it will be pure hell. 24 days worth of our lives stolen.

Meanwhile getting back to the original point about extra trains to Uckfield. Whilst we are made to suffer, no cuts to Uckfield or East Grinstead and they are supplying additional trains to improve their commute.

Most Redhill Route commuters are feeling a bit unfairly dealt with at the moment, especially as fares are lower along the lines they are improving.

RANT 2 over - sorry guys

 

[physics34]

Only 4 years - let's be fair the current situation before these cuts is very bad. My estimate with the extended journey times and cut/diverted trains is that the journey will have an extra 40-50 minutes every day.

Taking 40 minutes, that's 220 days a year actually working in the office and thus commuting, 40 mins x 220 is 8,800 minutes per year or 146.5 hours per year or 6 days extra spent on train commuting.

The commute itself will be less pleasant with all the changes at East Croydon and standing in overcrowded carriages etc.

Yes, it will be great in Jan 2019 when we have our shiny trains and a decent timetable but for the next four years it will be pure hell. 24 days worth of our lives stolen.

Meanwhile getting back to the original point about extra trains to Uckfield. Whilst we are made to suffer, no cuts to Uckfield or East Grinstead and they are supplying additional trains to improve their commute.

Most Redhill Route commuters are feeling a bit unfairly dealt with at the moment, especially as fares are lower along the lines they are improving.

RANT 2 over - sorry guys

during the peak it does seem that trains up via redhill are more overcrowded than anything else.