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What would stop the "British Rail" brand being resurrected?

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sadgit

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Just a hypothetical... surely it would be something of a PR win for the railways were they to do essentially what ScotRail do - have the actual franchisees be invisible to the public, but provide a consistent service under a single unified brand name, which could well end up being the British Rail name (I looked, and the name itself isn't trademarked by anyone, while the double arrows are owned by the Department of Transport). Hey presto: unified national network, a greater impression (even if unwarranted) of a cohesive organisation, and a bit of a nostalgia boost for those who remember the BR name.

Just an idle thought I had...
 
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underbank

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Franchisees wouldn't be impressed. I'm sure the whole point of Virgin trains is for the exposure of the Virgin brand for public awareness and cross-selling of its airlines, banking, telecoms and other products & services. The franchisees will want to pay a lot less if there's little or no advertising/marketing in it for them - the like of Virgin just wouldn't be interested - they'd end up with anonymous banks and venture capitalists who'd pay less.
 

edwin_m

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Virgin is probably the only one this applies to though. The only other franchise operator with a big presence outside the transport industry is Serco, and they don't sell to the general public so have no particular reason to advertise to them (and indeed the branding on their rail operations is/was fairly low profile). As to the others I don't really see Joe Public saying "that was a really nice Stagecoach train, maybe I'll try their bus instead of the Arriva one".
 

duncanp

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Maybe they need to do what Transport for London do with bus services.

All buses must be painted the same red colour, but there is room for Arriva, Stagecoach etc. to put their logo as well.

Mind you if they did go for a uniform colour, I can foresee a problem when a passenger is travelling on a TOC specific ticket (eg. London Midland only between Birmingham and London) and they got on a Pendolino not realising it was operated by Virgin.

I think it works in Scotland because a large proportion of local services are operated by Scotrail, with competition only on certain routes.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Arriva Trains Wales has put Welsh Government branding (dragon etc) on its trains.
This is despite running nearly half of its services in/for England.

Local devolution may well mean that "Rail North" or whatever, gets onto the fleet.
Intercity operations are more about the brand and less about the region served, and don't have the same subsidy element.
 

W-on-Sea

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"What would stop the "British Rail" brand being resurrected?"

-the reputation and memories of how it was when it existed? Not a brand with a great reputation, all in all.
 

fgwrich

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Virgin is probably the only one this applies to though. The only other franchise operator with a big presence outside the transport industry is Serco, and they don't sell to the general public so have no particular reason to advertise to them (and indeed the branding on their rail operations is/was fairly low profile). As to the others I don't really see Joe Public saying "that was a really nice Stagecoach train, maybe I'll try their bus instead of the Arriva one".

See the First Group / great Western railway rebranding or arriva's initial ditching of the Arriva name for the Cross Country franchise or Chiltern all as examples of this. DB could have had Arriva roll it's branding out across Chiltern, but people associate the Chiltern brand with a good quality reliable service with innovations and extensions. Arriva on the other hand has for a while had a lessor quality reputation, so why ruin that. The same argument could easily apply to rebranding a franchise British Rail - In this day and age, Branding, Quality and Visual perception is a lot bigger for larger companies and this I believe is why returning to British Rail wouldn't fully work out.

First on the other hand is carrying out the rebranding partially to drop the First name from it's Great Western franchise - It's bus side has for a while had a poorer reputation and why bring yourself down when one of your businesses is doing rather well? The great Western railway branding chosen specifically because of the historical elements, and the evoking of the quality of the express services once provided day in day out from Paddington to the West Country and South Wales - the FC refurbishment and Pullman Dining expansion forming examples of this.
 
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telstarbox

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Virgin is probably the only one this applies to though. The only other franchise operator with a big presence outside the transport industry is Serco, and they don't sell to the general public so have no particular reason to advertise to them (and indeed the branding on their rail operations is/was fairly low profile). As to the others I don't really see Joe Public saying "that was a really nice Stagecoach train, maybe I'll try their bus instead of the Arriva one".

And whenever Serco are in the news it's because they've done something dodgy...
 

deltic

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Just a hypothetical... surely it would be something of a PR win for the railways were they to do essentially what ScotRail do - have the actual franchisees be invisible to the public, but provide a consistent service under a single unified brand name, which could well end up being the British Rail name (I looked, and the name itself isn't trademarked by anyone, while the double arrows are owned by the Department of Transport). Hey presto: unified national network, a greater impression (even if unwarranted) of a cohesive organisation, and a bit of a nostalgia boost for those who remember the BR name.

Just an idle thought I had...

British Rail Ltd still exists though and is owned by the Secretary of State -you would not be able to use the name.
 

bramling

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Just a hypothetical... surely it would be something of a PR win for the railways were they to do essentially what ScotRail do - have the actual franchisees be invisible to the public, but provide a consistent service under a single unified brand name, which could well end up being the British Rail name (I looked, and the name itself isn't trademarked by anyone, while the double arrows are owned by the Department of Transport). Hey presto: unified national network, a greater impression (even if unwarranted) of a cohesive organisation, and a bit of a nostalgia boost for those who remember the BR name.

Just an idle thought I had...

An interesting thought, and I don't know the answer.

However regarding brands, I'd be happy for each TOC to have a 'brand', including a livery more adventurous than base white, but each franchisee then has to stick to the brand with just minimal mention of their owning group.

This would allow some more historic names like Great Western Railway to re-appear!
 

Railsigns

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"What would stop the "British Rail" brand being resurrected?"

-the reputation and memories of how it was when it existed? Not a brand with a great reputation, all in all.

Undeservedly so. British Rail was, after all, one of the most efficient railway systems in the world towards the end of its existence. Some people don't like to admit it, though.
 

herschell

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I will admit I do miss the old branding especially the Inter-City brand and the colours the livery used to be
 

W-on-Sea

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Undeservedly so. British Rail was, after all, one of the most efficient railway systems in the world towards the end of its existence. Some people don't like to admit it, though.

To some extent I quite agree with you - and there were numerous advantages associated with a more unified system, as well as the relative triumphs of InterCity, ScotRail, Network SouthEast, West Yorkshire PTE, even the sense that the provincial sector was being invested in with the coming of the Sprinters.... But, still, those negative memories of surly staff, dirty trains all in a uniform, and dirty, shade of dark blue (true, not so in the final years), those sandwiches (yes, unfair in the final years after Clement Freud lent a hand), and Casey Jones Burgers.... all would be difficult to overcome in a commercially focused railway intent on attracting new passengers....

Basically, it's in the past - the identity was one of 1960s and 70s costcutting, closures, standardization, and managed decline.....
 

thenorthern

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I think the current system of having trains different colours depending on the operator is a good idea and having trains called certain names work as well. For example between Birmingham New Street and London Euston I know what is London Midland and what is Virgin and between Manchester and Stoke-on-Trent I know what is CrossCountry, Northern Rail and Virgin Trains which is useful with knowing TOC only tickets.
 

satisnek

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While those of us who take an interest in such matters will know that BR did an amazing job (essentially a process of continuous improvement throughout the bulk of its life), the brand is not held in universal adulation by the general public. That's why I feel that the campaign group Bring Back British Rail has got it so wrong.
 

Howardh

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What's UKIP got to say about the railways?

That aside, let's get this right. The rails are nationalised, the trains are privatised (East Coast?) and in some places you get one company per line, others several. For the same fare you can either get the luxury of standing toe-to-toe on a draughty, leaking nodding donkey, or a seat in a new carriage with air-con, electric points and so on.

To truly work, privatisation has to mean at least two companies running their trains on the same lines (here the choice is Northern or walking) with different fares per train - and let them fight it out. Competition for the passenger's cash. Doesn't happen in my experience though. So to that extent, as a customer, privatisation's failed?

In my neck of the woods, privatisation's brought us 25-yr-old stock as standard, if we're lucky, and very occasionally a train that comes on time. When we finally get electrocuted we will have electric trains, 25 years old or more that will turn up on time about as often as England win the World Cup. At Cricket.

You can hardly blame us oop north for wanting British Rail back? If we get a vote to decide our next MP, Euro MP and Police Commissioner, why not a vote on who we want to run our railway?
 
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starrymarkb

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What's UKIP got to say about the railways?

In their last Manifesto (2010)
High Speed lines to Manchester, Leeds and Exeter*
Trains to be painted in traditional colours.
erm..

That was about it.

Should add they've done a U-Turn on high speed rail when they found they might get votes in the Marginal Chiltern seats.


*UKIP HQ is in Newton Abbot, but that would have been too obvious
 

Railsigns

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The rails are nationalised, the trains are privatised (East Coast?)

The funny (stupid) thing is, most of the trains are state run, only not by the British state (East Coast excepted).

In my neck of the woods, privatisation's brought us 25-yr-old stock as standard, if we're lucky, and very occasionally a train that comes on time.

Count yourself lucky... My daily commute takes place aboard 35-year-old stock!
 

lincolnshire

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Undeservedly so. British Rail was, after all, one of the most efficient railway systems in the world towards the end of its existence. Some people don't like to admit it, though.

I agree with you, an efficent operation which cost a lot less in subsidy as against what its costing now. If the Goverment had made available and allowed whats been made available to the to the train operating companies and Network Rail what a wonderfull railway system we could have had as against what we are still trying to achive after throwing money at the railways.

Where does all the money come from then?
 

Howardh

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In their last Manifesto (2010)
High Speed lines to Manchester, Leeds and Exeter*

> > > where from....;) ??

Without having a go at UKIP - OK then, I will, that's the problem when you delve under the surface. The EU is of very little concequence to the vast majority of us, but transport is!
 

fairysdad

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That aside, let's get this right. The rails are nationalised, the trains are privatised (East Coast?) and in some places you get one company per line, others several. For the same fare you can either get the luxury of standing toe-to-toe on a draughty, leaking nodding donkey, or a seat in a new carriage with air-con, electric points and so on.

To truly work, privatisation has to mean at least two companies running their trains on the same lines (here the choice is Northern or walking) with different fares per train - and let them fight it out. Competition for the passenger's cash. Doesn't happen in my experience though. So to that extent, as a customer, privatisation's failed?
I've noticed that East Coast have recently had a radio advertising campaign, highlighting that their trains have Wifi and offer a good food selection on board (particularly breakfasts). The tone of the adverts is basically 'Next time you take the train, take an East Coast train' (although they don't actually say that specifically!).

Sounds good to me. The trains I usually travel on have either one or the other - Wifi but an over-priced and under-stocked trolley service, or a buffet car (or better!) but no Wifi. So maybe next time I travel on the train, I will go on East Coast, so I can eat well and mess around on Facebook while I travel.

* goes to journey planner *

Oh.

Well, according to this, I can't. It seems that only South West Trains allow travel from Bournemouth to London, so that's the wifi but a dodgy trolley. And it's only First Great Western from Tiverton to London, so that's the buffet car, and I suppose I should take a book with me.

Dodgy acting (if one can act on a Forum) and tounge-in-cheekness aside, that is, in my opinion, what is wrong with the privatised railway we currently have. Not necessarily that there's things available on certain services that aren't available on others, or that the rolling stock in some companies have seen better days than others, and even with the same stock, the different companies treat them differently, but it's the *perceived* competition that the railways have that's the issue.

Personally, I don't think that reviving the 'British Rail' brand for our railways would work; as has been said, the brand didn't necessarily have a strong selling point in its latter years. I also don't think renationalisation would work either. Look at what the DfT are doing with the railways now when it's supposedly a private system.

It does, in my opinion, however, need something to change what is happening, and I think that a franchised option like TfL use would be part of how to get this to work. Rail companies who have less funds because they have less traffic, or have lower fares, or whatever (although I have no experience, to me through this forum, this is how it seems that Northern Rail operate) should be subsidised by those companies who are making more. It should be a national rail system, yes, one that is operated by private companies, but actually it doesn't matter who runs the trains. And it doesn't matter what the different facilities on board different companies' trains are.

The problem has been, as I mentioned before, that the way the railways are perceived by the public - and the TOCs seem not to be helping stem this perception - is that there is a competition between companies. Admittedly, in a few places, the companies do have competitive routes, but I'd say that the vast majority of routes don't have competition between companies. Okay, so, for example, Exeter to London - I could travel either on FGW or SWT. But I travel from Tiverton, so that's FGW. If I lived in Honiton, it'd be SWT. And I'd suggest that most journeys don't necessarily have a choice, or if they do, it's not necessarily a realistic one (for instance, my other main journey from Bournemouth, I could, if I so desired, take XC to Southampton and then Southern to Victoria - that seems the only option I'd have to get to London avoiding SWT, but it's not really practical).
 

scotsman

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Maybe they need to do what Transport for London do with bus services.

All buses must be painted the same red colour, but there is room for Arriva, Stagecoach etc. to put their logo as well.

Mind you if they did go for a uniform colour, I can foresee a problem when a passenger is travelling on a TOC specific ticket (eg. London Midland only between Birmingham and London) and they got on a Pendolino not realising it was operated by Virgin.

I think it works in Scotland because a large proportion of local services are operated by Scotrail, with competition only on certain routes.

There's also only one route with a "Scotrail Only" ticket. All other TOC-specific tickets are on clearly branded trains.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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A single word posting that requires some historical context adding. The Tories as a political entity originated with the Cavalier faction in the English Civil War but the main period when they were a known political party was in the period from 1678 to 1834.

Do I now await a single word posting of Whigs....:roll:
 
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