What would stop the "British Rail" brand being resurrected?

[Howardh]

Awesome.

No, sorry, should be "Use The Railway Awesome Other Form Of Transport"

 

[Railsigns]

Personally, I don't think that reviving the 'British Rail' brand for our railways would work; as has been said, the brand didn't necessarily have a strong selling point in its latter years.

Though evidently it wasn't such a toxic brand as to necessitate replacing the familiar BR double arrow logo with something new.

I also don't think renationalisation would work either.

I disagree.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What's UKIP got to say about the railways?

Write to them and ask. Other than the scrapping of HS2, they are after upgrading what we have and reopen closed lines. They're keeping their cards close to their chests so that Liebour, Tories and Lib Dems don't steal them.

Not too sure if they'll resurect BR but you may never know, as they're not in power yet until the people decide...

 

[Railsigns]

What's UKIP got to say about the railways?

My guess would be: bringing back smoking carriages and bricking up the Channel Tunnel. Other than that, business as usual.

 

[alexl92]

I actually think that whether it was part of renationalisation or not, using the British Railways brand could be a success. You'd have to create a really smart, modern, fresh brand avoiding the use of Rail blue where possible, but with clever branding and marketing, pushing the fact that it's British owned and operated. But it could work.

In an ideal world, you'd create an in-house engineering company like BREL were, to produce locos, rolling stock and multiple units which would be British designed and built, but I imagine that's probably prohibitively expensive.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Well, London Transport (which had some rusty years - for similar reasons, and at round about the same time - as BR) successfully reinvented itself (albeit in a more guiding, rather than operating, role) as Transport for London (with a nice lower-case italic "f" in the middle): RfB is clearly the acronym of choice...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I actually think that whether it was part of renationalisation or not, using the British Railways brand could be a success. You'd have to create a really smart, modern, fresh brand avoiding the use of Rail blue where possible, but with clever branding and marketing, pushing the fact that it's British owned and operated. But it could work.

In an ideal world, you'd create an in-house engineering company like BREL were, to produce locos, rolling stock and multiple units which would be British designed and built, but I imagine that's probably prohibitively expensive.

What about the use of grey, white and red (English flag, the grey would only be used on the doors to meet DDA regs) with the TOC's name and ...part of British Rail. So for example you could have the Southern logo then underneath ...part of British Rail.

The Bombairder works at Derby would be retained but with 'Bombairder ... in partnership with British Rail' stuck over the sign.

In house design and built could be done through the cash saved by not funding the EU.

 

[alexl92]

What about the use of grey, white and red (English flag, the grey would only be used on the doors to meet DDA regs) with the TOC's name and ...part of British Rail. So for example you could have the Southern logo then underneath ...part of British Rail.

The Bombairder works at Derby would be retained but with 'Bombairder ... in partnership with British Rail' stuck over the sign.

In house design and built could be done through the cash saved by not funding the EU.

Yeah, I like the ideas. Personally though, I think it would benefit from being British Railways rather than British Rail. I know it's only a subtle difference but personally I think it would have slightly more appeal in present society.

 

[Howardh]

FasttrackUK
or
FastRailUK

Might get done under the Trades Descriptions Act, but the words "fast-track" are synominous with beating standing queues eg. at airports. Modern, you see!

Send my consultancy cheque to the usual address in Switzerland.

 

[BestWestern]

I think the current system of having trains different colours depending on the operator is a good idea and having trains called certain names work as well. For example between Birmingham New Street and London Euston I know what is London Midland and what is Virgin and between Manchester and Stoke-on-Trent I know what is CrossCountry, Northern Rail and Virgin Trains which is useful with knowing TOC only tickets.

Oh deary me!! I think you may very probably find that the general travelling public would disagree intensely. It is needlessly confusing corporate vanity and nothing more. The railways are not supermarkets, the 'customers' do not want a choice of several different 'brands' to choose from; they simply want to go to the station and get on 'the' train to wherever, simple. Open access, competing franchisees, TOC-specific tickets and all of that rubbish is utter nonsense and benfits very few people. Incidentally, how helpful is it when a twice a day FGW service runs from Brighton (a Southern station full of green trains) using a South West Trains liveried train? There are other examples also. Clarity, I think not. Just a thought.

 

[khib70]

Oh deary me!! I think you may very probably find that the general travelling public would disagree intensely. It is needlessly confusing corporate vanity and nothing more. The railways are not supermarkets, the 'customers' do not want a choice of several different 'brands' to choose from; they simply want to go to the station and get on 'the' train to wherever, simple. Open access, competing franchisees, TOC-specific tickets and all of that rubbish is utter nonsense and benfits very few people. Incidentally, how helpful is it when a twice a day FGW service runs from Brighton (a Southern station full of green trains) using a South West Trains liveried train? There are other examples also. Clarity, I think not. Just a thought.

A sensible thought though. It never fails to amaze me how many different threads on different topics eventually come round to the vital issue of what colour the train is. Having lots of multicoloured liveries might be great for enthusiasts, but as you say, the travelling public would prefer clarity and simplicity.

 

[infobleep]

See the First Group / great Western railway rebranding or arriva's initial ditching of the Arriva name for the Cross Country franchise or Chiltern all as examples of this. DB could have had Arriva roll it's branding out across Chiltern, but people associate the Chiltern brand with a good quality reliable service with innovations and extensions. Arriva on the other hand has for a while had a lessor quality reputation, so why ruin that. The same argument could easily apply to rebranding a franchise British Rail - In this day and age, Branding, Quality and Visual perception is a lot bigger for larger companies and this I believe is why returning to British Rail wouldn't fully work out.

First on the other hand is carrying out the rebranding partially to drop the First name from it's Great Western franchise - It's bus side has for a while had a poorer reputation and why bring yourself down when one of your businesses is doing rather well? The great Western railway branding chosen specifically because of the historical elements, and the evoking of the quality of the express services once provided day in day out from Paddington to the West Country and South Wales - the FC refurbishment and Pullman Dining expansion forming examples of this.

Perhaps they could just keep the First Great Western name for their Reading to Gatwick Airport services. They don't seem to be doing so well lately.

 

[313103]

No thanks. Some of us are old enough to remember the last incarnation of the brand.:cry:

And yet what is the incarnation we see at every railway station in this country?

Yes that some British Rail BRAND. If we really want to rid ourselves of the British Rail brand completely then one should get rid of the brand logo that everyone associates with British Rail.

But No we don't to do that do we? I mean the companies change as often as the wind changes! We will keep the British Rail logo at every station, as I was once told it is how people know they are on the railway.

That is why even 20 years after privatisation some people still call travelling by train as being on British Rail.

 

[physics34]

Agree the Intercity name and branding would not look out of place now.

The BR double arrow logo should still be on all coaching stock IMO.

 

[Clip]

A sensible thought though. It never fails to amaze me how many different threads on different topics eventually come round to the vital issue of what colour the train is. Having lots of multicoloured liveries might be great for enthusiasts, but as you say, the travelling public would prefer clarity and simplicity.

Well the totally amazing, never done owt wrong British Rail also had a multitude of different liveries all over the country including freight so why is it such a problem for TOCs to have different liveries now?

 

[Chris Wallis]

Tories.

....and Labour and Lib Dems.......


It would have been nice to have seen what BR could have achieved with the same real terms investment the railways get now.

Sadly, the days of BR are gone for good. Cracks me up when people try to claim that rail privatization has worked though!

Considering we have Scotrail and ATWales, how about Rail England?

 

[BestWestern]

Well the totally amazing, never done owt wrong British Rail also had a multitude of different liveries all over the country including freight so why is it such a problem for TOCs to have different liveries now?

Because back then people didn't have worry about whether their ticket was valid on this train or that, or seek out one of several trains all going the same place but operated by a certain company, or in general attempt to navigate a rail system pretending to be a competitve private marketplace, where they are expected to be able to identify a multitude of different brands and fully comprehend whatever particular set of rules each one decides to use independently of all the others. And neither did they have to watch all that shiny new paintwork on trains and stations, all the uniforms, station furniture, leaflets timetables and just about anything and everything else being wiped away and replaced with something else every few years, at a cost of million of taxpayers' pounds. That a good enough reason?!

 

[BritishRail83]

Undeservedly so. British Rail was, after all, one of the most efficient railway systems in the world towards the end of its existence. Some people don't like to admit it, though.

Too true......

 

[Clip]

Because back then people didn't have worry about whether their ticket was valid on this train or that, or seek out one of several trains all going the same place but operated by a certain company, or in general attempt to navigate a rail system pretending to be a competitve private marketplace, where they are expected to be able to identify a multitude of different brands and fully comprehend whatever particular set of rules each one decides to use independently of all the others. And neither did they have to watch all that shiny new paintwork on trains and stations, all the uniforms, station furniture, leaflets timetables and just about anything and everything else being wiped away and replaced with something else every few years, at a cost of million of taxpayers' pounds. That a good enough reason?!

But there were still multi coloured liveries were there not?

At least with having lots of different liveries people can see who they are travelling with can they not? Im pretty sure that most people can see what is an LM service compared to a virgin one - they seem to have it big enough on the sides.

And yes I do remember the party who took a Virgin service instead of an LM one and got charged but we still dont know whether they were just trying that on.

 

[Deerfold]

But there were still multi coloured liveries were there not?

At least with having lots of different liveries people can see who they are travelling with can they not? Im pretty sure that most people can see what is an LM service compared to a virgin one - they seem to have it big enough on the sides.

And yes I do remember the party who took a Virgin service instead of an LM one and got charged but we still dont know whether they were just trying that on.

I've caught an EC service in EMT livery. And a Thameslink service in Southern livery. And a Northern service in Southeastern livery. I had an operator-only ticket on the EC service.

 

[CC 72100]

Because back then people didn't have worry about whether their ticket was valid on this train or that, or seek out one of several trains all going the same place but operated by a certain company, or in general attempt to navigate a rail system pretending to be a competitve private marketplace, where they are expected to be able to identify a multitude of different brands and fully comprehend whatever particular set of rules each one decides to use independently of all the others.

To be honest though, I would argue that this is advantageous to the price-sensitive traveller? Don't need to get there in any specific haste and want to save a few quid by saying 'hey, I don't need to get there quickly'? - use an LM-only ticket. That way those who don't want the bells and whistles can have their lower-priced 'simple' journey, without paying for the fast one that they don't want or need.

Simplification of this would have a very likely outcome - the ticket that would be 'retained' would be the expensive one and the cheaper one scrapped.

 

[merlodlliw]

....and Labour and Lib Dems.......


It would have been nice to have seen what BR could have achieved with the same real terms investment the railways get now.

Sadly, the days of BR are gone for good. Cracks me up when people try to claim that rail privatization has worked though!

Considering we have Scotrail and ATWales, how about Rail England?

Arriva Trains Wales is a brand of Arrivas own making,the franchise is Wales & Borders, in four years it will be gone,then whoever runs the toc, will be totally answerable to Cardiff Bay, one good thing already known is the new TOC will not be a no growth type as now.

 

[sprinterguy]

But there were still multi coloured liveries were there not?

At least with having lots of different liveries people can see who they are travelling with can they not? Im pretty sure that most people can see what is an LM service compared to a virgin one - they seem to have it big enough on the sides.

And yes I do remember the party who took a Virgin service instead of an LM one and got charged but we still dont know whether they were just trying that on.

That’s rather putting the cart before the horse though. People shouldn’t have to be able to identify between different operators providing basically the same thing to their own unique set of terms and conditions in the first place. If you travel with London Midland or Crosscountry regularly in the vicinity of the West Coast main line, you will find that people are regularly confused by what does and does not constitute a Virgin Trains service, and I don’t think that they are all “trying it on”.

British Rail liveries following sectorisation generally denoted service types: Intercity had one identity for long distance services, NSE had one for commuter and suburban services radiating out from London and Regional Railways had one, too, though diversified to indicate services with local PTE support.

Sensibly, this is still the model that is followed in much of Western Europe: When I have a ticket valid only on regional and local trains in Germany, I know that I can only board the red ones, not the white ones. I would absolutely hate to be a foreign visitor to Britain if I had to attempt to make use of the railways.

 

[Robertj21a]

Undeservedly so. British Rail was, after all, one of the most efficient railway systems in the world towards the end of its existence. Some people don't like to admit it, though.

Was it ? - Really ?

This sounds a bit like rose-coloured spectacles, all with the massive benefit of hindsight.

I certainly don't recall anything particularly good about BR, and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

No doubt the railmen thought it was wonderful, but I was a passenger.

 

[Chris Wallis]

.....and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

Then why haven't they?

 

[EM2]

Was it ? - Really ?

This sounds a bit like rose-coloured spectacles, all with the massive benefit of hindsight.

I certainly don't recall anything particularly good about BR, and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

No doubt the railmen thought it was wonderful, but I was a passenger.

Yes, it was.
This blog post gives a very good explanation: http://turniprail.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/no-steven-norris-in-1990s-british-rail.html

 

[Railsigns]

Was it ? - Really ?

This sounds a bit like rose-coloured spectacles, all with the massive benefit of hindsight.

Yes it was, really, and I'm not wearing any rose-coloured spectacles.

I certainly don't recall anything particularly good about BR, and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

I presume you refer to those modern-day operators who benefit from public subsidies far in excess of what BR received (despite promises that public subsidies would drop).

No doubt the railmen thought it was wonderful, but I was a passenger.

So was I, but I am also a taxpayer. I don't like seeing my money go to waste for the sake of sheer political dogma.

 

[Oswyntail]

Was it ? - Really ?

This sounds a bit like rose-coloured spectacles, all with the massive benefit of hindsight.

I certainly don't recall anything particularly good about BR, and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

No doubt the railmen thought it was wonderful, but I was a passenger.

Financially very efficient compared with other railways.
As a traveller, long and medium distance there was little to complain about, with mid-life HSTs and electrics on the major routes; short distance, some of the stock was coming to the end of its life, but there was a major rolling investment programme.
By comparison, only two long-distance operators (WCML & CC) have newer fleets, and those two are arguably worse than what they replaced. Medium and short distance, outside the SE, are largely using the old BR stock. London commuter services have been modernised.

 

[yorksrob]

Was it ? - Really ?

This sounds a bit like rose-coloured spectacles, all with the massive benefit of hindsight.

I certainly don't recall anything particularly good about BR, and nothing much that some of the modern-day operators couldn't replicate, or beat.

No doubt the railmen thought it was wonderful, but I was a passenger.

I think someone's been watching a few too many Two Ronnies sketches.

 

[BestWestern]

But there were still multi coloured liveries were there not?

At least with having lots of different liveries people can see who they are travelling with can they not? Im pretty sure that most people can see what is an LM service compared to a virgin one - they seem to have it big enough on the sides.

And yes I do remember the party who took a Virgin service instead of an LM one and got charged but we still dont know whether they were just trying that on.

You're missing the point. Yes, BR had a multitude of liveries at various times. Indeed a train could frequently be formed of a rake of Mk1 or Mk2 coaches sporting a varied selection of colourful designs - but it didn't matter, because it was simply 'the train' to wherever, and your ticket would be valid regardless. That is very different to the plethora or rules, restrictions and distinctions in force on our current system, which I maintain helps absolutely nobody.