Employer led culture

[dcsprior]

Minimum Living Wage is a good start but I think Basic Income would be better: every adult gets a fixed minimum income which can be supplemented by other sources (most notably working). You'd still need to work to get the good things in life but at least the basics is covered

You could achieve this, as well as getting rid of unemployment benefit (and some others), without it coming directly from the government:

1 - set the personal tax allowance at £11,870 (what someone working 35 hours/week at minimum wage will earn)
2 - allow this allowance to be transferred/traded, creating a market in it. to a 50% taxpayer, paying £5,500 to buy £11,870 worth of allowance (via an intermediary that allowed them to do this many times over) would be worth it
3 - if the company acting as intermediary takes £250 from the £5.5k, this still results in the person selling the allowance getting over £100/week - significantly more than the £75 of unemployment benefit.

Of course this would result in a significant drop in tax take, which would need to be funded either by increasing taxes elsewhere, or cutting spending... but I think it would be an easier "sell" to those who're against spending on welfare benefits on ideological grounds - this wouldn't be welfare spending but a tax reduction

Why not move to Scotland and attend after Oxford and Cambridge one of the four oldest and best Universities in the UK

Aberdeen,Glasgow,Edinburgh or St Andrews

No fees payable.

I thought you have to have lived in Scotland (or an EU country other than the rest of the UK) for 3 years before you get it for nothing

Well my Daughter is in her Fourth Year at St Andrews, She lives with her Mum in the Midlands and pays the old rate of £1820 in Tuition Fees per year. Silly girl if she was registered living with me it would be zero.:cry:

Again, I think rUK students who start courses in Scotland now have to pay up to £9k/year?

I really do think that education should be free - once you deviate from that principle its a lot harder to argue that its OK to charge £1k/year, but not £2k or £9k or £50k. I'm pleased to see that Scotland has returned to this key principle.

Unfortunately renting is another con. My primary objection is that one is forced to shell out four times the cost if the house itself.

Yeah, and one which costs the public purse an awful lot of money. If more people in receipt of housing benefit lived in council housing rather than private rented accommodation, the savings would be huge. I'm actually not against the Tories' benefit cap in principle - but in reality the only reason that some people on benefits "get" so much is that huge chunks go to line the pockets of rich private-sector landlords

Look at local councils/publically owned services - managers who do the usual merry-go-round of being shifted sideways and upwards with no (or soft) targets to hit, huge ineffiencies (little concern about the company failing), no motivation to do better. No incentive for an individual to do better either.

You mention targets. It is impossible to numerically measure absolutely everything done in a job, so any target is always imperfect. I worry that our current obsession with them causes people to focus only on the areas which have targets set, at the expense of other important things

I would like to think that in a public sector organisation, people would want to do the best they could out of pride, and a feeling of public duty... though I'm not naive enough to believe everyone would.

I've had discussions about this with different people with different political views. I've noticed something of a pattern, although this is hardly scientific. People who are more socialist seem to prefer to be employees, in that they are paid by someone to do a job, and that's that. On the other hand, those who are more conservative seem to prefer the idea of having their own business ventures and creating their own wealth.

I'm not a fan of the phrase "wealth creator" to mean "person who got rich" - surely the wealth was mainly created by those further down the ladder doing the actual work?

 

[455driver]

I understand what you're saying but my point is that the world of work that you're familiar with is completely different to mine, people my age are now more exploited then ever, all becuase of this neo-liberal agenda that was set in motion by Thatcher and made worse by Blair and Cameron. My dad was telling me when he was my age, he could walk into a part time job in a shop without needing a CV or to fill out taxing questionnaires on customer service. Becuase after all that type of job shouldn't require such measures but because the employer has too much power, it's allowed this over-competition for crap retail jobs.

Um, I think you will find it is the legislation changes which has stopped that happening!
Those nasty bosses you hate so much dont like it either but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of a good rant shall we!

I would love to set up an organisation that's fairer to workers but where do I get the money to start such a venture?

Make sure yo have a good insurer because as soon as one of these employees you took on without any sort of background check steps out of line you will be up to your neck in compensation claims, its the modern way!
There is a well known phrase for this-
Dont hate the player, hate the game!


To be honest, on this thread you sound like the sort of person that expects everything to land at your feet without you having to put any effort into it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really do think that education should be free - once you deviate from that principle its a lot harder to argue that its OK to charge £1k/year, but not £2k or £9k or £50k. I'm pleased to see that Scotland has returned to this key principle.

So you are quite happy for the taxpayer to fund students doing courses in Miley Cyrus or the Simpsons are you?
Both of these have been offered (and done) in the past.
Can you explain exactly what use these qualifications are going to be in the future?

Surely the whole point of College etc is to enable the recipient to get a head start on the job market and not just to get paid to get p+ssed for 2 years, and if it is going to improve their earning potential then why shouldnt they pay for it themselves?
Of course its the 'you must go to College' mentality which has buggered the job up because people who dont need to go to College feel compelled to even though they dont know what they want to do in the future or what course they want to do at College resulting in them getting disillusioned with the course and building up a sh+tload of debt as well.

 

[ExRes]

The UK is a lost cause. The main reason is because the UK is insular and is not prepared to look at what works outside the UK. For example, no country would have bus deregulation if they would bother to take note of what is possible in neighbouring countries.

People only have one life and staying in the UK to try and save it is a big risk if it doesn't pay off.

OK, I'll bite

If the UK is such a lost cause then why are so many people flocking here to get away from their own countries ?

 

[radamfi]

OK, I'll bite

If the UK is such a lost cause then why are so many people flocking here to get away from their own countries ?

For people from poor countries, obviously the UK may seem attractive, especially because of the English language, but for an educated UK native, there are better options abroad. Countries with better GDP per capita, better public services and better social cohesion.

 

[Greenback]

For people from poor countries, obviously the UK may seem attractive, especially because of the English language, but for an educated UK native, there are better options abroad. Countries with better GDP per capita, better public services and better social cohesion.

Absolutely right. I'd leave the UK if I could. Sadly, family commitments ge tin the way.

 

[455driver]

OK, I'll bite

If the UK is such a lost cause then why are so many people flocking here to get away from their own countries ?

Well apparently they are all a great 'benefit' to the Country!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It makes me really warm inside to see that in order to try and rubbish Nigel Farage and UKIP that you hypocrites have even taken to quoting Daily Mail articles, what else needs to be said ?

And if I'd used the Guardian as the source you'd have gone "blah blah lefty lies wah wah". You can't have it both ways.

As for hypocrisy, I'm curious where that is?

The Daily Mail is a strange newspaper, but then they also got Stephen Lawrence's killers put behind bars so they're not all bad.

 

[Hornet]

Absolutely right. I'd leave the UK if I could. Sadly, family commitments ge tin the way.

I live in a country where emigration is almost a way of life for many families. It's easy to look at the financial implications, but when you see the emotional effects emigration can have on families, it makes you think about whether it is the right decision. It's scary how many people I know here have at least one member of their immediate family live in another country, whether it be the UK, USA or Australasia.

You have to be 100% commited to making the decision. It took me 14 years of travelling back and forth before making the decision to move to the ROI on a full time basis. In many way I get the best of both worlds. I try to make it back to the UK as often as possible, normally once or twice a month. If you emigrate further afield, that is not a realistic option. There are things you will miss, (and things you will not).

It's a fundamental decision, not one to be taken lightly. For many, it's a plunge into the unknown, and for some it can be a disastrous move. You need to research, plan and ensure, that if you have immediate family, that they are all on board with the move, because once you do it the likelihood is that there is no going back.

 

[yorksrob]

The UK is a lost cause. The main reason is because the UK is insular and is not prepared to look at what works outside the UK. For example, no country would have bus deregulation if they would bother to take note of what is possible in neighbouring countries.

People only have one life and staying in the UK to try and save it is a big risk if it doesn't pay off.

I wouldn't worry. Since the European Commission is busily forcing our European partners to adopt our own failed policies (see management of railways) we'll soon have plenty of countries to keep us company.

 

[Butts]

Absolutely right. I'd leave the UK if I could. Sadly, family commitments ge tin the way.

Who would have you.....

Seriously where abroad is an attraction for you ?

 

[43021HST]

Um, I think you will find it is the legislation changes which has stopped that happening!
Those nasty bosses you hate so much dont like it either but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of a good rant shall we!

Make sure yo have a good insurer because as soon as one of these employees you took on without any sort of background check steps out of line you will be up to your neck in compensation claims, its the modern way!
There is a well known phrase for this-
Dont hate the player, hate the game!


To be honest, on this thread you sound like the sort of person that expects everything to land at your feet without you having to put any effort into it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you are quite happy for the taxpayer to fund students doing courses in Miley Cyrus or the Simpsons are you?
Both of these have been offered (and done) in the past.
Can you explain exactly what use these qualifications are going to be in the future?

Surely the whole point of College etc is to enable the recipient to get a head start on the job market and not just to get paid to get p+ssed for 2 years, and if it is going to improve their earning potential then why shouldnt they pay for it themselves?
Of course its the 'you must go to College' mentality which has buggered the job up because people who dont need to go to College feel compelled to even though they dont know what they want to do in the future or what course they want to do at College resulting in them getting disillusioned with the course and building up a sh+tload of debt as well.

My god 455driver you really do have a knack for being insulting; do you deliberately try it or is it something that comes naturally? So many assumptions! The key to when debating seriously on a public forum is to avoid generalisations about other users.

Legislation changes? Can you list some legislations then, that require someone to fill out an exhaustively long questionnaire on customer service before taking up a zero hours contract job with pizza hut?

So by wanting to start up a scheme that's easier for workers, you instantly assume that it's going attract all the buffoons, I know plenty of people who are very competent workers but could never pass an interview due to their nervous nature. You must be something of a misanthrope.

No I'm very familiar with the fact that nothing good ever lands at your feet easily, but there's nothing wrong with wanting things to be that bit easier for my fellow man and myself, making things easier is called progress or are you against that as well?

The Miley Cyrus and Simpsons college courses are only offered in the States, which I do believe the student has to pay for. Something the UK taxpayer doesn't pay for. Did you skim read some right wing tabloid for that?

Have you even been too college or are you just buying into the lazy student stereotype? I go to college and I can tell you I rarely have the time for drinking, as I usually have an essay to do the following day. The reason why students shouldn't have to pay for college, is poorer students like me wouldn't have the chance of getting a decent job because they can't afford it or do you assume that everyone always has the financial means to pay for something that's considered a human right.

The reason why people feel compelled to go college is because it gives them a chance to avoid working in some soul crushing job and instead have a sense of hope that one day they may be able better themselves and the fact they can take pride in every college assignment, something the alienated workforce working in a supermarket or fast food outlet can't do.

I can see you already have pushed me into the lazy student stereotype, but you don't know me personally so you have no right to make these assumptions. You strike me as being your typical confirmation biased, kneejerk reaction based tabloid reader. I could be wrong though .

I live in a country where emigration is almost a way of life for many families. It's easy to look at the financial implications, but when you see the emotional effects emigration can have on families, it makes you think about whether it is the right decision. It's scary how many people I know here have at least one member of their immediate family live in another country, whether it be the UK, USA or Australasia.

You have to be 100% commited to making the decision. It took me 14 years of travelling back and forth before making the decision to move to the ROI on a full time basis. In many way I get the best of both worlds. I try to make it back to the UK as often as possible, normally once or twice a month. If you emigrate further afield, that is not a realistic option. There are things you will miss, (and things you will not).

It's a fundamental decision, not one to be taken lightly. For many, it's a plunge into the unknown, and for some it can be a disastrous move. You need to research, plan and ensure, that if you have immediate family, that they are all on board with the move, because once you do it the likelihood is that there is no going back.

I completely agree, I wouldn't want to leave the country as it can be truly miserable living far away from your family and everything you've known and grown up with as quite aptly pointed put.

 

[fowler9]

As someone who has sadly ended up becoming a regular in this countries service industry I have watched my pay and conditions get worse as the country has apparently got wealthier. I am now a manager and in real terms earn £1000 a year less than I did 5 years ago working 5 hours a week more on flexible shifts where I can't choose my time off that easily. My employers seem to think I am working for them because they are doing me a favour and I am just grateful. 100% behind the OP.

I'd leave this country tomorrow just for a change of wallpaper. Anyone who wouldn't leave just hasn't travelled enough already and seen what is out there.

 

[radamfi]

It's scary how many people I know here have at least one member of their immediate family live in another country, whether it be the UK, USA or Australasia.

Are the Irish only interested in English speaking countries?

 

[Greenback]

I live in a country where emigration is almost a way of life for many families. It's easy to look at the financial implications, but when you see the emotional effects emigration can have on families, it makes you think about whether it is the right decision. It's scary how many people I know here have at least one member of their immediate family live in another country, whether it be the UK, USA or Australasia.

One branch of my family emigrated to Australia in the 1960's. My grandparents tried it, but didn't like it out there and came back, even though they had sold their home, their business and most of their possessions to go out in the first place. I think it helped kill my grandad, as he died a couple of years afterwards.

You have to be 100% commited to making the decision. It took me 14 years of travelling back and forth before making the decision to move to the ROI on a full time basis. In many way I get the best of both worlds. I try to make it back to the UK as often as possible, normally once or twice a month. If you emigrate further afield, that is not a realistic option. There are things you will miss, (and things you will not).

You have to sever a lot of your ties with people in the UK if you go to the other side of the world, even though things like Skype can help these days. Some of my friends have done it, and they are happy enough according to their messages, but they did spend a few shorter visits there beforehand.

It's a fundamental decision, not one to be taken lightly. For many, it's a plunge into the unknown, and for some it can be a disastrous move. You need to research, plan and ensure, that if you have immediate family, that they are all on board with the move, because once you do it the likelihood is that there is no going back.

Definitely, I'm unable to do it because we have caring responsibilities here. And, as much as I'd love to go at a later stage, unless my other half is as committed as I am, then we won;t be doing it.

Who would have you.....

Seriously where abroad is an attraction for you ?

New Zealand is my number one destination. I already have friends and (by now( distant family out there, and I loved my all too brief visit there some years ago.

Unfortunately, as you say, they won't have me!

I'd also consider Norway, Germany, Spain, Netherlands and Ireland.

I don't fancy the US, Canada or Australia, even if I could get in, I'm not sure why.

Are the Irish only interested in English speaking countries?

There's a long tradition of emigration to the new world, but I've found Irish people living all around Europe on my travels. Whether they would consider themselves permanent residents rather than temporary economic migrants I couldn't say though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My parents emigrated to Australia in the early 80s in an attempt to create a new life. They kinda liked it but when my sister and I came along they came home. Why? It was just so far from family, which with two kids under three was too much for them. So we all came back and lived in my grandparents' spare room for nearly a year.

This was an age before Skype but it was in the age of the jetliner. The distance was too much.

It does mean I have Australian citizenship, as will my daughter when I get around to applying for it. I have the chance to move to another country without any visa problems. I'm not sure that I would. Some things in Australian life appeal to me, some don't, but really I don't think life would be very different.

It does also mean I'm one of those filthy immigrants

 

[Greenback]

Your family's experience shows how important it is to have a good support network. Some families seem to manage that easily when they relocate, others don't find it so easy for a variety of reasons.

In my grandmother's case she had family already there but still couldn't settle. I believe, but don't know, that she missed her friends back home more than anything. She'd also given up the shop that she ran, I think it was all too much of a change for her.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Definitely. My parents had some family out there and made friends too, but coming from a tight-knit family (my mother is the eldest of six) they just never quite managed to replace the feeling of home.

I'm glad they did it, it's given me experiences I'd never ever have had if they'd stayed in Bradford all their lives, but it does emphasise just how big a step it is.

The missus moved to Ireland to do her doctorate and she had similar feelings, though she was only an hour on the plane from her family and friends. I know plenty think Ireland is just the same as England but it isn't. Dublin is reasonably similar but it's still definitely "abroad", it's definitely different. Even more so further down the country (as she found herself). It took her a while to adjust to doing things their way instead of her way, and that was in a country a couple of hundred miles away.

 

[Hornet]

Are the Irish only interested in English speaking countries?

The Irish attitude to learning a foreign language is much like the UK's. Many of the Irish working in Europe tend to work in the tourist area's, where being deficient in the local language is not a great problem. Some, like my partner's daughter have done TEFL (Teach English as a Foreign Language) courses. She has a degree in Italian and Linguistics, and spent several years doing TEFL courses in Italy.

The USA, UK and Australia/New Zealand have massive Irish communities. 20 million people in the USA have Irish roots, and in the UK around 5 million people have ties to Ireland. The Great Famine had a fundamental impact on Irish emigration, and over the last 100 years high unemployment has also had a huge impact.

There is not much call for 'an gaelgeor' abroad, even though it is taught in all schools. The nearest school to me has all it's lessons 'I Gaeilge' (in Irish). What is ironic is that, even with an unemployment rate of 12%, Ireland has a shortage of skilled IT people, because they lack suitable language skills, both to communicate with the foreign companies they have to deal with, and in designing and producing software for foreign markets.

 

[Butts]

I can see why a lot of people would select New Zealand to emigrate to as it's almost a "home away from home"

Christchurch, when I was there a few years ago, was reminiscent of an English Town like Salisbury.

Unlike Australia which I have also visited, NZ remains more "British" at least for the time being.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite agree, my first choice would be NZ, far better than Australia (though I'd consider Melbourne).

Others that I would consider - Switzerland, parts of Germany, Austria or Poland.

Not interested - USA, Italy, France

However, having been to most of these I'd also have to say that the UK is actually quite hard to beat - honestly !

 

[radamfi]

I am surprised there is so much enthusiasm for New Zealand on a public transport forum. I can understand being attracted by the scenery, but it is not renowned for public transport. It even has (or had) a form of bus deregulation, although not as extreme as in the UK. Auckland is a very car oriented and sprawling city. Not many trains there either, given its low population.

 

[43021HST]

Basically why would you leave a country to find better employment and effectively leave your family?

I would rather be jobless with a large supporting family than rich and lonely.

 

[Butts]

I am surprised there is so much enthusiasm for New Zealand on a public transport forum. I can understand being attracted by the scenery, but it is not renowned for public transport. It even has (or had) a form of bus deregulation, although not as extreme as in the UK. Auckland is a very car oriented and sprawling city. Not many trains there either, given its low population.

This is the General Discussion section, most peoples desire to emigrate would not be influenced by the preponderance of Public Transport. Indeed some may wish to get away from "commuter madness"

 

[SWTH]

I go to college and I can tell you I rarely have the time for drinking, as I usually have an essay to do the following day. The reason why students shouldn't have to pay for college, is poorer students like me wouldn't have the chance of getting a decent job because they can't afford it or do you assume that everyone always has the financial means to pay for something that's considered a human right.

The reason why people feel compelled to go college is because it gives them a chance to avoid working in some soul crushing job and instead have a sense of hope that one day they may be able better themselves and the fact they can take pride in every college assignment, something the alienated workforce working in a supermarket or fast food outlet can't do.

Sorry, but not being able to afford it yourself isn't an excuse for demanding tax-payers fund your education. An education is a basic right, further education is up to you. I couldn't afford it, so I didn't go. I took the slow option and worked my way up.

And on the subject of sweeping generalisations, you're assuming every student takes pride in their work, and that no supermarket or fast food chain employee does.

I'm afraid your posts do come across as moaning about being subjected to the whims and ways of the big bad real world - sorry, but that's the way it is. The days of walking into a job are gone. If you can't be arsed to fill in a few application forms (and some what seems pointless questionnaires), why should anyone bother to employ you?

 

[Butts]

Basically why would you leave a country to find better employment and effectively leave your family?

I would rather be jobless with a large supporting family than rich and lonely.

It depends how rich you are

 

[Tetchytyke]

Australia is very American, except they drink tea and play cricket. New Zealand has retained more "Britishness", but don't take that to mean it is like Britain. It is very different.

Sorry, but not being able to afford it yourself isn't an excuse for demanding tax-payers fund your education. An education is a basic right, further education is up to you. I couldn't afford it, so I didn't go. I took the slow option and worked my way up.

Twenty or thirty years ago I think you'd be right, although ironically it was twenty or thirty years ago that you got everything paid for you.

It's still possible to "work your way up" in some industries, but they are definitely reducing in number. So many jobs are now advertised as "degree essential", and the numbers of those jobs is rising.

Of course you don't need a degree to actually do those jobs, but if you don't have a degree then the automatic recruitment software rejects your application regardless of experience.

 

[Greenback]

This is the General Discussion section, most peoples desire to emigrate would not be influenced by the preponderance of Public Transport. Indeed some may wish to get away from "commuter madness"

I agree. My liking for New Zealand has nothing do with trains, or lack of them, or other forms of public transport. It's simply a beautiful country with lovely people.

 

[43021HST]

Sorry, but not being able to afford it yourself isn't an excuse for demanding tax-payers fund your education. An education is a basic right, further education is up to you. I couldn't afford it, so I didn't go. I took the slow option and worked my way up.

And on the subject of sweeping generalisations, you're assuming every student takes pride in their work, and that no supermarket or fast food chain employee does.

I'm afraid your posts do come across as moaning about being subjected to the whims and ways of the big bad real world - sorry, but that's the way it is. The days of walking into a job are gone. If you can't be arsed to fill in a few application forms (and some what seems pointless questionnaires), why should anyone bother to employ you?

So you're saying that poor students shouldn't be able to access education because god forbid should the tax payer have to pay for it? Why do people always us the whole 'tax payer' arguement to justify things, I would rather taxpayers money be used to fund education rather than lining shareholders pockets.

Well most students do take pride in their work, they've chosen to be on that course, they're not there against their own choice, unlike school. I've worked in a fast food chain, there's no real room to take pride in your work because you have to conform to strict standards.

Yes the world is big and bad, but there's nothing wrong with wanting things to be better rather than blithely accepting things.

 

[SWTH]

Twenty or thirty years ago I think you'd be right, although ironically it was twenty or thirty years ago that you got everything paid for you.

It's still possible to "work your way up" in some industries, but they are definitely reducing in number. So many jobs are now advertised as "degree essential", and the numbers of those jobs is rising.

Of course you don't need a degree to actually do those jobs, but if you don't have a degree then the automatic recruitment software rejects your application regardless of experience.

If you really want that degree, you'll find a way of funding it. The university side of things isn't an issue with regards to funding anyway. If funding a year or two at college before going to uni means a little pre-planning and working a summer job, or working evenings/weekends in addition to study, then so be it. In my situation, even that was beyond my means, but I certainly didn't expect anyone else to provide for me.

As for working your way up, it's still possible, you just need to employ a little lateral thinking, and be flexible.

 

[43021HST]

If you really want that degree, you'll find a way of funding it.

By paying off a mountain of debt, for the first 10 years of your working life.