Delay repay due to barrier staff at East Croydon

[tony6499]

The complete text is very clear; boarding at ECR, or indeed any station in the zones that isn't listed, is permitted when leaving the Travelcard zones:-

Boarding at stations listed below, to any station outside the London Fares Zones 1-6, not valid on trains timed to depart:

London Terminals (except Paddington or Vauxhall or Clapham Junction) before 11:00 or after 15:59 until 19:01;
London Paddington before 11:00 or after 15:01 until 19:16;
Clapham Junction before 11:09 or after 16:06 until 19:10;
Vauxhall before 11:03 or after 16:03 until 19:05.

The fact they are using a SWT ticket/restriction when Southern 'SOP' tickets have a vastly different validity and restriction has caused the confusion and if RJ says there is a problem then there is a problem.

If the gate line staff are trained to refuse SOP tickets at this time they are and as a Southern station they obey what they're told to do

 

[bb21]

The fact they are using a SWT ticket/restriction when Southern 'SOP' tickets have a vastly different validity and restriction has caused the confusion and if RJ says there is a problem then there is a problem.

What?

I sincerely hope you have nothing to do with gatelines, or revenue in general. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous reasons I have ever heard. Are you not capable of making up your own mind or do you not understand ticket restrictions at all?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fact they are using a SWT ticket/restriction when Southern 'SOP' tickets have a vastly different validity and restriction has caused the confusion and if RJ says there is a problem then there is a problem.

If the gate line staff are trained to refuse SOP tickets at this time they are and as a Southern station they obey what they're told to do

So the fact that the gateline staff are badly trained is perfectly OK? If the boot were on the other foot a "genuine mistake", even if reasonably held, wouldn't be accepted as a valid reason.

The wording of the restriction is obvious: "boarding at stations listed below, to any station outside the London Fares Zones 1-6". The stations listed are London Terminals (not Paddington, Clapham Junction or Vauxhall), Paddington, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction. It is permitted to board at East Croydon, which is neither a London Terminal, Vauxhall or Clapham Junction.

Most other restrictions in London apply to the train regardless of where you board, but that's not relevant to this.

 

[TEW]

But with that attitude you are letting yourself wide open to the passenger being wrong and then having someone end up on hrere with a 'man at the gateline scenario' and we all know where that leads to with scepticism.

It is however about time that many Tocs did indeed give their gateline staff at such busy ststaions a tablet of some sort loaded with the correct software to check journeys and their validity.

True but without the means to actually check validity of tickets I don't see any other option.

 

[Wolfie]

The problem is that at that time we are talking about is rush hour, and there was no doubt on behalf of the staff on the gates, he/she was adamant it wasn't valid and should be up to ticket office staff to double check, (unless an excess was requested straight away)

So it is acceptable for a TOC (and god forbid one which has just been given the biggest franchise of the whole lot!) to not bother either training its staff properly or giving them the tools to do their job properly and just screw a passenger who wishes to travel with a perfectly valid ticket in rushhour is it? Methinks a letter to the OP's MP is in order - parliamentary correspondence does rather have the effect of waking Govt Depts up - perhaps a missive from DfT might make Southern management get off their rearends and do their job properly..... and yes, failure to properly train or provide the requiste tolls should cost the hopeless complacent TOC money - perhaps if their bottom line is hurt they may just get the message!

 

[RJ]

Most other restrictions in London apply to the train regardless of where you board, but that's not relevant to this.

Agreed - somehow I managed to miss the first first paragraph when initially looking at the restriction.

I've checked the NRE journey planner for a Poole to East Croydon journey (specifying via Ford) and it does show the £47.90 Not Via London Super Off Peak Return as valid to leave East Croydon at any time of day.

Apologies for any confusion - my mistake (post duly struck through!) and there is a valid grounds for complaint.

 

[IanD]

Agreed - somehow I managed to miss the first first paragraph when initially looking at the restriction.

I've checked the NRE journey planner for a Poole to East Croydon journey (specifying via Ford) and it does show the £47.90 Not Via London Super Off Peak Return as valid to leave East Croydon at any time of day.

Apologies for any confusion - my mistake (post duly struck through!) and there is a valid grounds for complaint.

The fact they are using a SWT ticket/restriction when Southern 'SOP' tickets have a vastly different validity and restriction has caused the confusion and if RJ says there is a problem then there is a problem.

If the gate line staff are trained to refuse SOP tickets at this time they are and as a Southern station they obey what they're told to do

Oh dear. What's your opinion now?

 

[tony6499]

Oh dear. What's your opinion now?

If someone like RJ can be confused it sums it up and no doubt there will be a change in validity anytime soon to cover such occasions.

In the past Southern staff had it drummed into them about SOP tickets and their validities and things such as a SWT flow were never mentioned. I can't blame staff if the training they receive is wrong and this is what needs addressing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Agreed - somehow I managed to miss the first first paragraph when initially looking at the restriction.

And this shows why it's such an easy mistake to make.

Given that NRE have gone to the trouble of providing short URLs for every single restriction in the system, taking seconds to find them, it is frustrating that gateline staff are not given the tools to check.

 

[Sepiida]

Hi

So, I'm the friend of lj9090 who was affected by this. Firstly, thank you all so much for the comments posted here, they were all very helpful. I'd also like to say that, sorry, I can be a bit long-winded sometimes so this is going to be a fairly long post.

To bring you up to speed, I requested delay repay compensation and issued a complaint regarding how not one single member of staff gave us the same answer as any other one, none of them were seemingly correct, and few if any took any direct action to help us, as well as the fact that their website allows you to buy our tickets, where they will apparently refuse you travel with.

I was issued with Rail Vouchers due to this trip a week ago or so and thought that would be the end of this.

However, over the weekend I received a letter from their customer services department that basically said 'no, we were right, your tickets were not valid, but we've given you the compensation anyway.' - possibly over the odds, in fact. I didn't know what time our train actually got in on that day and didn't see an obvious definition of delay on the form, and there were literally minutes in the balance of if it was above or below 60.

My intention is to respond directly to their letter, because I disagree with a lot of their reasons. I'm fairly sure other people will end up in the same situation as we were, stuck with basically no one on their side, or willing to listen, and having to fight just to have somewhere to sit while they wait, let alone catch the train they've been ticketed for, and I think that they should do something about it rather than ignore the problem or pretend it doesn't exist - which is apparently their current strategy.

I can do part of this letter on my own but if possible I would like some help with drafting a complaint specific to the ambiguous restrictions that affected us and I can only imagine have an impact on other travellers.

Before I go any further, I'd like to submit the following information for your attention, in an attempt to remove any ambiguity as to who has their foot firmly planted on the right side of this specific situation:

As of today you can in fact still buy a SWT Super Offpeak Day Return route: not via London ticket for travel with Southern on their via Barnham route, for both trains in question (it refuses to show the 16:48 but the 16:52, trying to save 4 minutes with a change at Three Bridges, some other sites with different ticket selectors don't show this, but we will see later this does not really matter):
16:52: http://i.imgur.com/yc8xZu9.png
17:51 http://i.imgur.com/C1AIXnC.png

(I've tried several browsers to check I'm not crazy, but the above is from Chrome)

Anyway, this is the brunt of their response (the full text can be found here) - I would note it was written by someone with Manager in their job description, and any spelling/grammar mistakes are probably from me transcribing it rather than them.

Please rest assured that I have recorded your comments on the matter for review by the responsible management, in the hopes that they may go some way towards helping us to improve our service.

Having said this, I must also advise you that our staff were in fact correct to advise that your ticket was not valid until after 19:00, and the barrier had also read your tickets correctly when it did not allow you to access the platform.

This is because tickets such as yours, with the restriction code BE are not valid for travel on services departing the London Terminals before 19:01. The link you have provided in your letter, www.nationalrail.co.uk/BE, confirms this as under "return travel" it states that these tickets are "[...] not valid on trains timed to depart:

-London Terminals (except Paddington or Vauxhall or Clapham Junction) before 11:00 or after 15:59 until 19:01;
[...]"

Because both your intended service (16:48 to Southampton Central) and the service you actually boarded (17:51 to Southampton Central) both departed London Victoria inside this time frame, your tickets were not valid for travel on either service.

From your letter I understand that the conductor of the 17:51 service to Southampton Central allowed you to travel on that occasion, however in future please bear the above in mind.

Furthermore, in your letter you say that our website, www.southernrailway.com, indicates that these tickets are valid on the 16:48 service to Southampton Central. Having run this search through our website myself, I can confirm that this is not the case. In a search for a return journey from Southampton Central to East Croydon (I understand that your journey was more complex than this, however for the sake of simplicity I have isolate this leg only, because it is the only leg in question), when a Super Off Peak ticket is selected (which have the restriction code BE) the 16:48 and 17:51 services, as well as several others, are clearly omitted from the list of possible return services, with a statement that this has been done.

I took it upon myself to spend a few moments to investigate their claim: You cannot buy Super Offpeak tickets with the restriction code BE for Southampton Central to East Croydon from their website:

Super Off Peak Day Return Route Via Barnham - restriction PB - their website says NO: http://imgur.com/AaNWl9L
Super Off Peak Day Travelcard Route: Southern Trains Only - restriction PB - their website says NO: http://imgur.com/Uu53cT9
Super Offpeak Day Return Route: Not Via London - restriction BE - their website says YES: http://imgur.com/eyVhceu (note both the 16:48 and 16:52)

(All imagery obtained today, 10th of November)

It seems fairly easy to point out the obvious and callous mistake the person who reviewed our case made - they are incorrect that the tickets they refer to, shown as not available in that time window on their website, have the restriction BE, as they apparently have restriction PB and are priced by Southern (detailed here). If they'd taken 10 seconds to check that these were indeed the tickets we'd had, they may have noticed that tickets that do have the restriction BE (detailed here[url]) are shown as valid on their website for specifically the leg in question. I don't believe there can be any argument at all that this is the case, and I think I can handle writing this and supplying the above articles to prove the point.

However, in my opinion, there's a bigger problem in their somewhat choosy interpretation of the BE restriction to match their opinion, something any member of staff could do at any station even if they had the national rail definition in front of them: They specifically omitted the key language of 'boarding at the stations listed below', as has been discussed earlier in this thread. The whole situation at large where there is very confusing use of language and, if their experience is anything like ours, they were basically faced with a different brick wall in every direction. I also had no idea that Southern sold similarly titled tickets for a similar route that would have not been valid, which can only add to the problems.

How can I best convey to them that the situation with complicated restrictions like this cannot be dealt with by putting their hands over their ears and pretending that there isn't a problem?

 

[bb21]

There are a few ways you can play this, however I think the most important thing that you need to decide is what you want to get out of taking this further.

You could pick their arguments to pieces easily, however you need to bear in mind that if you make a big fuss about it, they may well collude with SWT to get things changed, so that the ticket can no longer be useful to you in the future.

You may want to make good use of this ticket for a long time to come, in which case you may have to swallow your pride and let them get away with it for this time. Getting the confirmation that you are right is not always the best solution, circumstances considering. At the end of the day, they issued you the compensation you wanted this time so you haven't lost out.

These are just a few pragmatic approaches to this case. It really depends on what your main objective is.

 

[Paul Kelly]

You could pick their arguments to pieces easily, however you need to bear in mind that if you make a big fuss about it, they may well collude with SWT to get things changed, so that the ticket can no longer be useful to you in the future.

If this was a particularly good value ticket I would agree, but it hardly is. It's more than twice the price of the CDR via Barnham, which has no afternoon peak restrictions at all! In my opinion it's not at all illogical, nor a loophole, that it should be valid on the Southern route via Barnham in the afternoon peak.

 

[lj9090]

It's far from the cheapest way of doing this route, so I don't think there's much worry about having it withdrawn or priced upwards out of usefullness.
I had actually recommended a different ticket - via Barnham and route excess the outbound to travel via Clapham - but the one sold was recommended instead by the ticket office in Poole.

I beleive the eventual aim is to right some of the distress of being stuck behind the barriers with no options of what to do next and incoherent staff responses in trying to find a solution.
A followup letter once again finding staff totally confused as to how to sucesfully decode ticketing restrictions really hasn't helped matters, and I think the aim of this is to obtain some sort of commitment that steps will be taken to improve this situation.

From what I can gather lurking around this forum for a while before joining this sort of thing is something that quite a few of you have come up against and are working towards finding some solutions for this sort of problem, so some assistance in how best to follow this up with Southern would be appreciated.

 

[bb21]

It doesn't have to be the absolute cheapest or a loophole for a fare to be a useful fare, as it depends on what each different person gets out of it, and if things are changed as a result of taking this response further, it may have wider implications not just restricted to the way the complaint might wish to use it.

I have no intention to sway the decision either way. I just wanted to point out the possibilities as some people may well find it a good ticket with a good balance between convenience and value.

But if the decision is to press on and being ready for a potentially long battle, then it is perfectly fine by me because the response from Southern deserves being challenged from the perspective of someone in a neutral position.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The way to challenge them is relatively easy. Ask them what the full restriction text is, and where in the restriction text are restrictions with respect to boarding at East Croydon stated, because as far as you can see, restrictions only apply to London Terminals and Clapham Junction.

You can also state that if a satisfactory response is not received with 28 days, you will be taking this matter to Passenger Focus. You can also say that if you do not receive a satisfactory response in due course, they will be reported to the DfT for their non-compliance with the TSA and breaches of the terms of their franchise.

I find that the threat to report them to the DfT usually encourages a more meaningful response to be generated.

Unfortunately for all the good things they do in other respects, Southern's customer service are one of the most clueless in my experience, so be prepared to stand firm and you may have to really force your point.

As to the commitment to improve the situation, forget it. In reality you can probably get the promise out of them but whether anything will be done will be anyone's guess.

 

[Sepiida]

Firstly thank you for your advice bb21, but I figure I'll respond to your first post anyway because I've been writing it for so long!

There are a few ways you can play this, however I think the most important thing that you need to decide is what you want to get out of taking this further.

You could pick their arguments to pieces easily, however you need to bear in mind that if you make a big fuss about it, they may well collude with SWT to get things changed, so that the ticket can no longer be useful to you in the future.

You may want to make good use of this ticket for a long time to come, in which case you may have to swallow your pride and let them get away with it for this time. Getting the confirmation that you are right is not always the best solution, circumstances considering. At the end of the day, they issued you the compensation you wanted this time so you haven't lost out.

These are just a few pragmatic approaches to this case. It really depends on what your main objective is.

Well, to be perfectly candid, I'm not a big rail user - the reason for our travel to East Croydon was basically a one off, visiting the Home Office buildings there for an in person Visa application for my SO. The reasoning for our buying of these specific tickets was that they were shown by every service's websites as being valid for travel on those trains and were therefore versatile enough for our purposes (they were not suggested by the Poole ticket office). It was suggested by the home office to 'allow up to 3 hours', and they wanted us there for 13:05, and no real idea when we'd be going home. That time is pretty inconvenient with the myriad of restrictions put forward on travel to London: we wanted to take the faster South West train service and change at Clapham to get to the appointment safely on time without any risky changes (other route had ~4 minute windows), so we didn't just buy the cheaper Southern tickets that we could have that would (probably) have caused no issue for this return route. The application process was stressful enough - I just wanted to buy some train tickets that would get us there on time and give us acceptable options on travel on travel home, since even the more expensive SWT tickets were problematic since many of their trains skip over Clapham at peak times. Plus, if I could save enough money to buy Lunch, then all the better. Every search engine was very forthcoming with these as a valid option so I took it, not considering there could be a problem. I wasn't trying hard to weasel something out to save a few pence, and the cost of the Visa application we were making at our destination was ~2 orders of magnitude greater than any money we really saved picking these over Off-Peak or Anytime SWT tickets - we just wanted less hassle (and lunch).

And hassle was all we got.

Honestly the thing for me is that, this could catch someone just like us again tomorrow - an infrequent traveller buying tickets from a website for going to a very stressful and important meeting and having their day ruined by complicated restrictions and helpless staff who either refused to or couldn't acknowledge the possibility that we might have had a point, or that their answer was just the next on a pile of different ones. Thank goodness it was on the way home. Really just the one guy helped us out by printing out an itinerary that showed we could use the tickets we had for that 17:51 on that route (and even then he still said they were no good for the 16:48). If the train guard had decided our tickets were no good, I don't really know how far they could have chosen to take that but I imagine it would have made things a lot more complicated for us. If we hadn't been able to get through the barriers, we would have been stuck until at least 7 pm after a busy day around Croydon, and we couldn't see much evidence of any real seating in or near the station.

I just don't think that's a thing that should really be able to happen so easily. My biggest gripe is kind of that the barriers refused us entry, since our tickets were apparently valid for those trains (and apparently even for the trains up to Clapham) and I would have thought they would have known that and let us through, but I can understand why they wouldn't.

As for the loophole being useful, I'm not sure it really is? I can't really think of much of a use case if you're required to bring a long a wedge of evidence that proves you can use those tickets to experience an uncertain delay at the station every time you travel, but then again I'm not very creative. I know it's not something I will be doing again, that's for sure. As people have noted, generally the SWT tickets are significantly more expensive than the Southern ones when travelling from my home station, Poole, to East Croydon, and if you're confident in doing so, excessing is the way to go apparently. I have little to no confidence in this, hence buying the tickets that I did, but I think this might save you more money.

Further though, and adding credence to your point, searching for Poole vs Southampton Central to East Croydon via Barnham, while SWT and Southern do price tickets for both routes, the uh, the logic behind Southern's pricing seems to elude me, which seems like it might be a much larger and more 'useful' situation than trying to use a BE restricted ticket to return home as we did. Poole to Croydon via Barnham with a change at Southampton vs Southampton to Croydon doesn't really seem to make sense to me, unless it's priced to encourage literally anyone to use it instead of the SWT route. If you can save money and have Southern's staff smile and wave you through by playing your cards better than we did, then that's probably more of a useful loophole.

In terms of making use of this BE business specifically, I feel being informed that it is invalid for this journey and persisting anyway would be a very poor decision for anyone to make - If it is valid, it's only their ticketing system and being very specific with the language of the restriction code that says so - no actual human who works for Southern (or anywhere else to my knowledge) has said 'yes these are valid for all these trains' up front. I'm happy to accept that maybe they should not be valid, but that doesn't change the fact that they're being sold right now, and we were sold them as being valid.

To me, what we tripped over feels much more like a trap than a loop hole. And I'd personally feel a lot better knowing that this trap is closed off.

Really, I think, it is partly that I'd just like them to agree I'm right that you can buy them, and all the other usual blithe pleasantries you'd associate with such an acknowledgement so I can let it go. I kinda agree that the idea of changes and clearer rules, as well as better options for checking them so that people don't accidentally fall into these surprise cracks, is basically hopeless, but I can still point it out to them as best I can. The easy out for them is to just stop these tickets being sold for that route, the worst outcome of which is probably by 'fixing' the pricing for the Poole to East Croydon via Barnham route I guess? While the real problem is that everything else we had happen to us is going to play out again and again every time someone gets caught between what one system says vs what another system says, I'd settle for at least this trap being closed off.

 

[bb21]

The gatelines can only do what they are programmed to do, and I doubt that they would have considered these tickets when programming the gates tbh, so I am not surprised that they were rejected by the gates, but that should not be a problem, as staff should have allowed you on your way once they confirmed the restrictions of the ticket you held, and it was disappointing that they did not.

I only hope the Borders Agency (or whatever the department is called now seeing that it changes every couple of years) staff were more helpful than that lot, having experienced first hand how miserable and rude they can be at Lunar House.

What we normally recommend that people do is to pay up as demanded on the spot as otherwise it would just be more hassle, and then seek a refund in the aftermath. This also has the added advantage that financial damages have incurred and if they don't play ball, there is clear evidence of their breaches of various things and if necessary, they can be taken to court. This course of action however does depend on the passenger being confident of the validity of their tickets, and of course the sum demanded on the spot.

Do chase up then in this case. Press them on those questions I mentioned earlier. If they give dud answers then there are a few avenues this could possibly go down.

 

[talldave]

I agree with bb21 that Southern's customer services people are clueless. The problem you also need to be aware of in a "ping-pong" complaint like this that goes through a number of responses is that each time you get back to them, it'll be a difference clueless Southern person that deals with your complaint - so start each communication with a brief "bullet point" summary of how you got to where you are now.

Ticket restrictions appear to be one area that Southern display a special incompetence in. You are right and they are wrong, so their "we'll let you off even though you're wrong" response needs correcting to an apology for being wrong - twice. Tickets are key to their business, I find it incomprehensible how they manage to have such a poor understanding of their own business.

It's taken me months to persuade them to correct their Gatwick Express website to reflect the actual validity of tickets with restriction "C0" rather than what someone imagined the facts to be. Even then, they've corrected the desktop site but not the mobile site :cry:.

 

[yorkie]

Can someone obtain a photo of this notice please?

Are Southern HQ aware of it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't unknown for such "illegal" notices to be posted. Silverlink used to have a notice at Milton Keynes Central stating that remote tickets would not be issued (to avoid people splitting tickets/fare dodging by buying the start and end bit only). Didn't last long.

Neil

 

[PeterY]

The more I read about the evening peak restrictions the more I become confused about what is valid and what isn't.

It was so simple many years ago when one didn't have to worry about the evening peak, with return tickets.

Perhaps the TOC's should bring out a document so joe public can understand the rules.

I see at Watford Junction L.M have on their ticket office "certain off peak tickets are not valid between 16.30 and 19.00" "Certain", is a very loose word.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps the TOC's should bring out a document....

There is such a 'document' for each flow.....

Put in your origin and destination here and it'll be produced for you http://www.brfares.com/#home

Gateline staff, if they are not sure, must not prevent anyone travelling and must either promptly check without delay or give passengers the benefit of the doubt. If they have no ability to check, they have to let you though unless they have memorised that particular restriction code and know for a fact it's not valid.

 

[talldave]

Southern gateline staff are often confident, but sadly are trained wrong. I can't imagine that Southern have an employee who could write an explanation for customers.

 

[sarahj]

There is such a 'document' for each flow.....

Put in your origin and destination here and it'll be produced for you http://www.brfares.com/#home

Gateline staff, if they are not sure, must not prevent anyone travelling and must either promptly check without delay or give passengers the benefit of the doubt. If they have no ability to check, they have to let you though unless they have memorised that particular restriction code and know for a fact it's not valid.

Of course when the on train staff check the ticket and inform the punter thats its not valid you get 'but they let me through the gate'.

The problem here is that 99% of super off peaks that the staff do see, perhaps more, will not be valid. Some handy way should be found to help those who need to know, but there has not been a printed ticket guide on here for almost 5 years. The only thing I could think is perhaps add to that note would be 'this applies to tickets between london and southern destinations south of east croydon/ boundary 6. or VV.' Which covers the basics.

 

[PeterY]

There is such a 'document' for each flow.....

Put in your origin and destination here and it'll be produced for you http://www.brfares.com/#home

Gateline staff, if they are not sure, must not prevent anyone travelling and must either promptly check without delay or give passengers the benefit of the doubt. If they have no ability to check, they have to let you though unless they have memorised that particular restriction code and know for a fact it's not valid.

Thanks Yorkie for the link. I'm not sure what all the two digit codes mean though i.e. LW B4 .

 

[bb21]

They are restriction codes. Each fare (other than Anytime ones) has a restriction code which points to the time restriction the fare has. The restriction text is decoded and displayed automatically in BRFares if you click on it.

Different fares valid on the same train may have different restrictions.

 

[Sepiida]

I figured I would quickly drop by to report a Christmas Miracle. In my post box on Christmas Eve, I found the following letter, which I will attempt to transcribe verbatim. There are a couple of kinda nonsense sentences/paragraphs but whatever I guess.

Thank you for contacting us on [when] regarding our previous correspondence.

I am sorry to hear that you are disatisfied with your previous response regarding the BE restriction code which was applicable to the tickets your purchased for your return journey between Poole and East Croydon on [travel date]

Having liaised with our Fares department regarding this issue, I can see that our previous advice regarding this issue was incorrect and I apologise for any confusion caused. You were indeed correct to note that by boarding at East Croydon, and thereby outside of the London Terminals and other named stations in the BE restriction code.

The reason your ticket would not work in the barriers is that it is possible to use this ticket for travel from East Croydon to Clapham Junction and continue the journey to Poole from there. Indeed, as you are aware this is a faster route, thereby it is also the more popular method of making this journey, by comparison to using the slower 16:48 service towards Southampton Central to begin. The barriers do not open in order to prevent passengers travelling to Clapham Junction during the additional "peak" period that the Super Off Peak ticket observes, however the ticket is still valid for travel from East Croydon in the manner you had intended.

Furthermore, our Fares Manager has advised that confusion regarding the BE restriction code is not uncommon. As such, a detailed brief for our staff has recently been drawn up regarding this issue and is due to be distributed very shortly, so as to avoid any further incidents of confusion in the future.

Once again, I am sorry for the confusion, however I hope that this information has been helpful to you.

Thank you for taking the time to write to us, and I hope that your future journeys are pleasant and incident-free.

Yours sincerely,

[The same individual whom wrote the previous letter, shockingly enough!]

So I guess for the time being, nothing may have actually changed - they've now apparently unified their opinion that they're valid, and haven't suddenly adjusted their pricing or made the ticket unavailable on their website, so I guess hopefully future travellers may not get trapped by thinking they can do this and getting told they can't. At the very least they've almost just about acknowledged that their previous letter was a bunch of tripe and that they're allegedly going to be briefing their staff about something (who knows what) that might make a difference.

As for the correspondence they're replying to, I ended up responding with a summary of everything that occurred, and what each of us had said, and pretty much quoted bb21's advice regarding the restriction text. I also used brfares to show that the tickets they'd said couldn't be purchased were entirely non-relevant because they had the code PB and that you could clearly and easily buy BE tickets for even the 'leg in question' that would show their trains as an available option. Then I printed out a a big stack of paper showing everything in detail, the BE restriction text, a photo of our tickets, their website showing them as available for our trip and their 'leg in question' and the corresponding BR fares page showing the restriction code, and stuffed all that in an A4 envelope. So, the usual amount of overkill for anything I do, I guess...

Thank you all once again for the help you've offered in this process, and I hope having badgered Southern, or at the very least, highlighting the issue on this forum, will help someone out in the future.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Of course when the on train staff check the ticket and inform the punter thats its not valid you get 'but they let me through the gate'.

The problem here is that 99% of super off peaks that the staff do see, perhaps more, will not be valid. Some handy way should be found to help those who need to know, but there has not been a printed ticket guide on here for almost 5 years. The only thing I could think is perhaps add to that note would be 'this applies to tickets between london and southern destinations south of east croydon/ boundary 6. or VV.' Which covers the basics.

Does that make remembering the 1% a bit easier?

 

[stephy]

Love a good victory!