Delay repay due to barrier staff at East Croydon

[lj9090]

I *think* this is a valid reason for delay repay, but just want to check before I advise a friend of mine to put this through.

Ticket held: Super Offpeak Day Return Poole to Croydon Stations, Not Via London, with Two Together. At 4pm I'd texted her to say they couldn't return via Clapham till 7pm, so get on a southbound Southern train to Southampton than goes via Gatwick; the 16.48 would do perfectly. As they weren't boarding at London Terminals, Paddington,Vauxhall or Clapham Junction then as per nationalrail.co.uk/BE it's perfectly valid.
Except the barrier staff at East Croydon refused to let them through saying not valid till 7pm, and the ticket office refused to "upgrade" the ticket (I'm not sure if that's her words or theirs!). Everyone she could find claimed their were not valid till 7pm.

They're now on the 17.51 instead as they've manage to find some way of persuading staff the ticket is valid (not sure how at the moment!), but can they claim for delay repay? They'll be home at 21:13 instead of 20:18, so that's over 30 minutes.

 

[bb21]

Not sure about Delay Repay, but I think she definitely has a case for complaint.

 

[lj9090]

It's strange, because the ticket is still valid to head up to Clapham, break the journey there, and then resume down the SWML after 7pm. So there's not a single train they could get from ECR on which the ticket is not valid.

What's even wierder is now someone at the station printed off something from their planner and claimed the 16.48 they wanted to get wasn't valid, but the 17.51 is so let them through.
So I've looked this up and it seem that a TIS based planner excludes the direct 16:48 as the 16:52 with changes is "quicker". So as it's not on the planner of course that means it's not valid...!

And to just top it off the guard on the train is now confirming the 16:48 would have been valid but the 17:51 they have got isn't! I don't think these friends of mine are going to be trying a British train journey again for a a while...

 

[bb21]

lol seems like a mess.

Definitely chase Southern up for this I say.

 

[RJ]

I've read the text for restriction BE. It says it applies to trains timed to depart London Terminals or Clapham Junction during the evening peak.

Unless they were leaving a Croydon Station on a service not timed to stop at a London Terminal or Clapham Junction, it appears the staff were correct.

The restriction is probably like that because the trains are still busy leaving Croydon heading south in the evening peak.

 

[TEW]

Are you sure? The restriction code BE says that it is not valid boarding at the listed stations for a destination outside London Zones 1-6 on trains to timed to depart at the restricted times. The way I read that the restriction only applies to the listed stations; London Terminals, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction. It's the standard restriction for Super Off Peak tickets on SWT.

 

[southernmanc]

Southern super off peak restictions cover entry into ECR barriers, journey seems to be wholly within the NSE so seems to me to be correct (apart from the guards advice later on)

 

[TEW]

Poole to Croydon Station route Not via London is priced by SWT not Southern though and it has SWT's Super Off Peak restriction, BE, applied to it. Restriction code BE does not restrict journeys from East Croydon.

 

[southernmanc]

even so IF that were correct, would not be info that gateline would be privvy to, more ticket office based info, gateline instruction would be no entry to super off peak within London (vic, lbg, clj, ecr) unless journey origin / destination is outside NSE area...

 

[bb21]

And you think staff given the wrong information is an acceptable excuse to refuse passenger travel?

I wonder what the DfT will make of that.

 

[southernmanc]

not that staff have been given wrong information the information just isn't there, and your advise to chase up with Southern head honchos could be the way to go, but gateline staff are trained not to allow entry to super off peak tickets at that time. That information is just not accessible on a gateline and only gets put to regular use by ticket office staff.

 

[IanD]

not that staff have been given wrong information ... but gateline staff are trained not to allow entry to super off peak tickets at that time.

Make your mind up!

 

[causton]

not that staff have been given wrong information the information just isn't there, and your advise to chase up with Southern head honchos could be the way to go, but gateline staff are trained not to allow entry to super off peak tickets at that time. That information is just not accessible on a gateline and only gets put to regular use by ticket office staff.

Perhaps they should be trained differently?

What if a bus driver took a shortcut because he was trained to do it that way, missing out your stop? Would you accept the answer "I've been trained that way though, I wouldn't have the information of the exact route of this bus to hand"?

...if you're unsure as to whether it's valid as it's something you haven't seen before, and you don't have a quick way of finding out, you surely have to let them through!

 

[tony6499]

It still hasn't been ascertained whether that ticket is valid for that journey, I go along with RJ and say it isn't due to the fact the 1632 does call at Victoria and Clapham Junction in the restricted time

 

[southernmanc]

Make your mind up!

I though I was clear in SAYING that anything more than basic knowledge of tickets is not accessible or trained to gateline staff unless an individual takes his/her own time to consult 'knowlegebase' (however useless it is)

 

[TEW]

not that staff have been given wrong information the information just isn't there, and your advise to chase up with Southern head honchos could be the way to go, but gateline staff are trained not to allow entry to super off peak tickets at that time. That information is just not accessible on a gateline and only gets put to regular use by ticket office staff.

Well they shouldn't be trained that way. They should be trained that in cases where there is doubt then they should allow passengers through the gates. A Croydon Stations-Poole is not something they would come across to often I imagine so not something they should be expected to know. But they should be trained that as it's something unusual that they should err on the side of caution and allow the passengers through, especially if they are insistent it is valid.

 

[southernmanc]

But they should be trained that as it's something unusual that they should err on the side of caution and allow the passengers through, especially if they are insistent it is valid.

surprisingly passengers insist a lot of things. Back to to this topic and without the info to hand, send in delay repay with account of what happened and send in! No harm in trying...

 

[TEW]

They do. But if I don't know something, or I'm not 100% sure then I will allow the passenger through. Just recently I had a passenger insisting that a ticket was valid which seemed pretty unlikely to me. He insistent though and I let him through. When I got home I checked up and the passenger was indeed correct, his ticket was valid via the illogical route. If I'd checked up and he'd been wrong then next time he wouldn't have been let through.

 

[bb21]

It still hasn't been ascertained whether that ticket is valid for that journey, I go along with RJ and say it isn't due to the fact the 1632 does call at Victoria and Clapham Junction in the restricted time

Read the restriction text yourself and make up your own mind. Here is the definitive source of the restriction text.

Now tell me why you think his ticket is invalid.

surprisingly passengers insist a lot of things. Back to to this topic and without the info to hand, send in delay repay with account of what happened and send in! No harm in trying...

Therefore all passengers must be distrusted?

I think the OP needs to contact the DfT urgently if this were the attitude adopted by the company. Maybe they would also like to invoice Southern £94.80 for making this "mistake"?

 

[southernmanc]

The problem is that at that time we are talking about is rush hour, and there was no doubt on behalf of the staff on the gates, he/she was adamant it wasn't valid and should be up to ticket office staff to double check, (unless an excess was requested straight away)

 

[bb21]

The problem is that at that time we are talking about is rush hour, and there was no doubt on behalf of the staff on the gates, he/she was adamant it wasn't valid and should be up to ticket office staff to double check, (unless an excess was requested straight away)

The bottom line is, Southern were at fault and staff were unable to do their jobs correctly. I am not going to get into the nitty-gritty as to where the fault lies exactly (gateline or ticket office), as the underlying cause does not change.

Southern need to sort this out.

 

[lj9090]

FYI South West Trains trainline based planner will show the 16.48 & the 17.51 as valid on this ticket, I've let my friend know this for when she writes a letter in to Southern.

Southern's webTIS planner doesn't because I think it reckons the 16.52 (and changing at Three Bridges to the 16.48 service) is quicker! It does still list the 17.51 as valid, which is what the ticket office ended up printing out to let them get through to a train an hour later than planned.

The fact both planners list various trains between 4pm & 7pm as valid does really suggest that reading the BE restriction as only being applicable if *boarding* at the stations listed is being read in the way it was intended.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem is that at that time we are talking about is rush hour, and there was no doubt on behalf of the staff on the gates, he/she was adamant it wasn't valid and should be up to ticket office staff to double check, (unless an excess was requested straight away)

Yep. Rush hour. By the time they got through the queue to the first ticket window, they were met by a member of staff who just shrugged and wasn't willing to either look up if the ticket was valid or sell them something to make it valid.

And by the time they queued up at the next ticket window to find someone less unhelpful the train had gone. Exactly what is a passenger supposed to do? How early do they need to get to the station in order to allow for unneccesary delays caused by badly trained and indifferent staff? And if they weren't expecting any problems?

 

[Clip]

They do. But if I don't know something, or I'm not 100% sure then I will allow the passenger through. Just recently I had a passenger insisting that a ticket was valid which seemed pretty unlikely to me. He insistent though and I let him through. When I got home I checked up and the passenger was indeed correct, his ticket was valid via the illogical route. If I'd checked up and he'd been wrong then next time he wouldn't have been let through.

But with that attitude you are letting yourself wide open to the passenger being wrong and then having someone end up on hrere with a 'man at the gateline scenario' and we all know where that leads to with scepticism.

It is however about time that many Tocs did indeed give their gateline staff at such busy ststaions a tablet of some sort loaded with the correct software to check journeys and their validity.

 

[hounddog]

It is however about time that many Tocs did indeed give their gateline staff at such busy ststaions a tablet of some sort loaded with the correct software to check journeys and their validity.

Or at the very least a list of the 'exceptions' as in this case.

 

[Greenback]

It is however about time that many Tocs did indeed give their gateline staff at such busy ststaions a tablet of some sort loaded with the correct software to check journeys and their validity.

Absolutely right. But think of the expense!

 

[Clip]

Absolutely right. But think of the expense!

Oh aye, its always going to cost - what doesnt. Mind you I remember at my last TOC when I told them that getting Blackberrys for management would improve productivity they balked at the cost because of the data. What they failed to understand was they were looking at the non business tarrifs. I do believe they all have them now as some of us wouldnt answer emails all day

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern's webTIS planner doesn't because I think it reckons the 16.52 (and changing at Three Bridges to the 16.48 service) is quicker!

The default view of many journey planners is to hide overtaken services - if staff are interpreting that as making the journey 'invalid' for travel, they're quite wrong.

Online planners are just making a default assumption that most passengers want the fastest possible journey from A-B; although you'd think they might give a higher weighting to journeys with no changes.

 

[tony6499]

Read the restriction text yourself and make up your own mind. Here is the definitive source of the restriction text.

Now tell me why you think his ticket is invalid.


?

not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Terminals (except Paddington or Vauxhall or Clapham Junction) before 11:00 or after 15:59 until 19:01;
London Paddington before 11:00 or after 15:01 until 19:16;
Clapham Junction before 11:09 or after 16:06 until 19:10;
Vauxhall before 11:03 or after 16:03 until 19:05.

How would you read this restriction to say that travel on the 1632 ex Vic is valid ? To me anyone would say it wouldn't be valid

 

[FenMan]

not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Terminals (except Paddington or Vauxhall or Clapham Junction) before 11:00 or after 15:59 until 19:01;
London Paddington before 11:00 or after 15:01 until 19:16;
Clapham Junction before 11:09 or after 16:06 until 19:10;
Vauxhall before 11:03 or after 16:03 until 19:05.

How would you read this restriction to say that travel on the 1632 ex Vic is valid ? To me anyone would say it wouldn't be valid

The complete text is very clear; boarding at ECR, or indeed any station in the zones that isn't listed, is permitted when leaving the Travelcard zones:-

Boarding at stations listed below, to any station outside the London Fares Zones 1-6, not valid on trains timed to depart:

London Terminals (except Paddington or Vauxhall or Clapham Junction) before 11:00 or after 15:59 until 19:01;
London Paddington before 11:00 or after 15:01 until 19:16;
Clapham Junction before 11:09 or after 16:06 until 19:10;
Vauxhall before 11:03 or after 16:03 until 19:05.

 

[IanD]

To me anyone would say it wouldn't be valid

Anyone who can't be bothered to read the whole text but jumps in to the middle.

(As I read it, the restriction will let you board the 16:32 ex Victoria and alight at East Croydon - as it is in Zones 1-6 - and then board a train departing from East Croydon at, say, 16:48)