Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[ainsworth74]

Instead it was "this is the model we are making. you can pick what colour it is in but nothing else".

Still better than Ford and the Model T where you couldn't even choose the colour

 

[92002]

Class 170s are DOO (P) approved and have done DOO (P) work between Ipswich and Liverpool Street and still do between Ipswich and Colchester.
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Correct but where is the electric stock currently to displace the 170/ 171s?

Seem to remember there are just a few 319s looking for a home shortly.

 

[3141]

I'd guess if Southern had truly been able to specify the 171s, they'd have had the same bodyshell length and width as the Electrostars?

It is as you say a guess that Southern might have preferred a 20-metre DMU, but if they'd got that the present capacity problems would be even more acute, and posts on this thread would instead be asking why on earth they'd chosen a shorter train with fewer seats.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Class 170s are DOO (P) approved and have done DOO (P) work between Ipswich and Liverpool Street and still do between Ipswich and Colchester.

Not on Southern's safety case they aren't.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

We are fairly soon going to be swimming in 100mph EMUs with nowhere to go.

Class 319s for example, and Class 317s.
If there are not enough 319s to go around, send 317s up north in lieu of 319s and put the 319s to work.
Or use Class 365s if any are shaken lose by the musical depot-roads game being played at Thameslink.

If they can have their 3rd rail equipment re-instated then the 365s should goto SouthEastern unless there have been so many changes to them and the 465s and 466s that they would no longer be compatible.

 

[Class 170101]

Not on Southern's safety case they aren't.

This may well be true and indeed XC do not operate DOO between Ely and Stansted (a DOO permitted route with DOO capable trains) but it cannot be said that it cannot be done with this type of traction.

 

[Class377/5]

Seem to remember there are just a few 319s looking for a home shortly.

No 'homeless' 319s until mid 2016. They ones released have been snapped up.

 

[The Ham]

No 'homeless' 319s until mid 2016. They ones released have been snapped up.

Chances are that if there were 319's going spare their lease costs would drop a little or be offered for sale and someone would suddenly find a use for them to provide extra capacity. Even if this was only in the same way that Chiltern use their bubble car (i.e. running selected peak hour routes to free up the normal units to strengthen other services).

 

[dubscottie]

Isn't that Bombardier's philosophy to try and keep to a standardised design, especially if its for a relatively low number of trains, nothing wrong with that in my view, and how do you know they wern't more customer focused but the costs of changing the design might have been too high for the customer. Obviously a large order may justify significant changes to the design.

Dick Fern (the then boss of Irish Rail) said it in an article of "Modern Railways" IIRC.

All they wanted was a change in the door positions. Adtranz said no.. So off to Japan with €400 million of cash that could have gone to Derby had they been more flexible.

And the Irish Rail order was large enough (234 Vehicles). CAF can do small orders and Siemens seem willing also. Derby is just lazy and wonder why they lose orders:roll:

 

[fgwrich]

Dick Fern (the then boss of Irish Rail) said it in an article of "Modern Railways" IIRC.

All they wanted was a change in the door positions. Adtranz said no.. So off to Japan with €400 million of cash that could have gone to Derby had they been more flexible.

And the Irish Rail order was large enough (234 Vehicles). CAF can do small orders and Siemens seem willing also. Derby is just lazy and wonder why they lose orders:roll:

Unfortunately for Derby, after getting nowhere with flogging the Turbostar concept to IE, they then put forward the 172 to NI Railways for the New Trains Two programme - Whilst the 172's layout would have been more suited to this rolling stock procurement than the IE attempt, the two things that let them down were the compatibility wanted by NIR to work with the 3000s and the late running of the Class 172 build programme. So another case of You want this, but we will only build you this.

And whilst they replaced the Mk3 sets, the 22000s as built by Hyundai Rotem / Mitsui are rather pleasant units to travel on. The same MTU powerpack as a Class 170, but with the ambiance of the Mk3s they replaced. One of Dick Fearn's key clauses of the new DMU fleet was to be based largely around the Mk3s they were set to replace, and it's a job they've managed to do rather well. I reckon that had a batch been built for Scotland, we wouldn't be seeing the 170s being sent away.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Unfortunately for Derby, after getting nowhere with flogging the Turbostar concept to IE, they then put forward the 172 to NI Railways for the New Trains Two programme - Whilst the 172's layout would have been more suited to this rolling stock procurement than the IE attempt, the two things that let them down were the compatibility wanted by NIR to work with the 3000s and the late running of the Class 172 build programme. So another case of You want this, but we will only build you this.

And whilst they replaced the Mk3 sets, the 22000s as built by Hyundai Rotem / Mitsui are rather pleasant units to travel on. The same MTU powerpack as a Class 170, but with the ambiance of the Mk3s they replaced. One of Dick Fearn's key clauses of the new DMU fleet was to be based largely around the Mk3s they were set to replace, and it's a job they've managed to do rather well. I reckon that had a batch been built for Scotland, we wouldn't be seeing the 170s being sent away.

Would the engines used in them both fit within the UK loading gauge and meet the current emissions regs?

 

[47802]

Dick Fern (the then boss of Irish Rail) said it in an article of "Modern Railways" IIRC.

All they wanted was a change in the door positions. Adtranz said no.. So off to Japan with €400 million of cash that could have gone to Derby had they been more flexible.

And the Irish Rail order was large enough (234 Vehicles). CAF can do small orders and Siemens seem willing also. Derby is just lazy and wonder why they lose orders:roll:

It seems to me your comments are just lazy, unless you know the full ins and outs of the contract, just changing the doors probably meant a complete redesign of the train and maybe Derby didn't think it was worth it for the contact that was on offer, maybe others did but then maybe such as the others might be willing to make less money or even no money on the contact just to get into the market and/or have designs more suited to the requirements, unless you know the full ins and outs I suggest you avoid lazy comments.

 

[edwin_m]

CAF can do small orders and Siemens seem willing also.

CAF yes, Siemens no I would say. They withdrew from the bidding for Crossrail after winning Thameslink, not exactly a small order to most people, and they apparently only supplied the last batch of 350s because they were obliged to by an option in a previous contract.

Any rolling stock supplier will turn down an order if they don't think they can make a profit from it. Perhaps the question should be why some standard rolling stock platforms appear to be more flexible than others.

 

[Techniquest]

And whilst they replaced the Mk3 sets, the 22000s as built by Hyundai Rotem / Mitsui are rather pleasant units to travel on. The same MTU powerpack as a Class 170, but with the ambiance of the Mk3s they replaced. One of Dick Fearn's key clauses of the new DMU fleet was to be based largely around the Mk3s they were set to replace, and it's a job they've managed to do rather well. I reckon that had a batch been built for Scotland, we wouldn't be seeing the 170s being sent away.

I must concur the 22000 'Rotem' DMUs are very good at their job, having spent a most significant amount of time travelling on them over the last few years. If we could have some of them over here, they'd prove just as popular. Well, maybe not with the cranks, the 29000s are the choice for cranks in my mind what with the rather decent noise they make (think 185 on steroids and mixed with a 156)! Of course, the 2700s were also brilliant for noise, and the 2600s aren't too bad either!

Anyway, as for the topic, I take it that confirmation has been received that ScotRail are sending some 170/4s down to Southern in the near-ish future? I've been trying to keep up to date with this thread as I'm finding it interesting, but might have missed something.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyway, as for the topic, I take it that confirmation has been received that ScotRail are sending some 170/4s down to Southern in the near-ish future? .

Yes, post #144 gave the public confirmation:

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) deal boosts capacity on crowded Sussex line GTR has revealed plans to give passengers vital extra capacity on the Uckfield to London Bridge line by deploying 12 additional carriages of Class 170 diesel trains, etc, etc.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1960502&postcount=144

 

[Techniquest]

Anyway, as for the topic, I take it that confirmation has been received that ScotRail are sending some 170/4s down to Southern in the near-ish future? .

Yes, post #144 gave the public confirmation:

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) deal boosts capacity on crowded Sussex line GTR has revealed plans to give passengers vital extra capacity on the Uckfield to London Bridge line by deploying 12 additional carriages of Class 170 diesel trains, etc, etc.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1960502&postcount=144

Link won't work on my phone at all, will try and read it another time (I'd skip back to that post in this thread but the app doesn't give you post numbers!).

Another interesting development in the scene then!

 

[Scotrail84]

These units have recently been spruced up and have a nice interior. All first class sections removed and are now std class only (suburban turbos) we call them.

Will these units be doo operated? They can have 393 that unit failed today
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Also heard recently that 170 405-415 leases are up very soon and nothing has been don't to rectify this. Being honest these 1st gen turbos are not in the best condition inside and out. They get hammered everyday on e and g's or Aberdeens, Inverness and Dunblane services. Not unusual to see them on Fife circles either.

 

[physics34]

These units have recently been spruced up and have a nice interior. All first class sections removed and are now std class only (suburban turbos) we call them.

Will these units be doo operated? They can have 393 that unit failed today
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also heard recently that 170 405-415 leases are up very soon and nothing has been don't to rectify this. Being honest these 1st gen turbos are not in the best condition inside and out. They get hammered everyday on e and g's or Aberdeens, Inverness and Dunblane services. Not unusual to see them on Fife circles either.

Will be interesting to see if southern totally redo the interior to match the others... Also, will they get vinyls or full southern livery we shall see.

 

[Fincra5]

I'd expect a Southern refurb tbh. Maybe some will enter whilst some are off being southernised.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'd expect a Southern refurb tbh. Maybe some will enter whilst some are off being southernised.

Will they be doo?

 

[hwl]

I'd expect a Southern refurb tbh. Maybe some will enter whilst some are off being southernised.

Does anyone one have any idea about how long the lease would be as this might effect what TSGN are willing to invest in them?

 

[Fincra5]

Will they be doo?

Considering no other 171s are... I'd go with no.

 

[Scotrail84]

Considering no other 171s are... I'd go with no.

I'm meant to know that how? Thee 170s are set up for do working by the way. All they need are mirrors or cameras at the stations.

 

[Southern Dvr]

I'm meant to know that how? Thee 170s are set up for do working by the way. All they need are mirrors or cameras at the stations.

Of which Uckfield route has none. Southern do not have DOO(P) for 171s on their safety case.

 

[Scotrail84]

Nobody up here has heard anything about this happening yet.

 

[physics34]

Nobody up here has heard anything about this happening yet.

Its definitely happening. Look earlier in the thread. Im a 171 driver for Southern and is all set for july 2015. We have already received briefs about them. They are off-lease from Scotrail.

The uckfield line is non-DOO.

One of the units is expected to arrive in the winter for Southern to evaluate required mods.

 

[Fincra5]

I'm meant to know that how? Thee 170s are set up for do working by the way. All they need are mirrors or cameras at the stations.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were.

 

[Starmill]

Will they be doo?

It would be amusing - Ashurst is entirely without ticket issuing facilities, which would mean free journeys from there using the Southern DOO model!

 

[deltic08]

I wonder why TPEx didn't nip in and nab them or arrange for them to go to Chiltern and keep their own 170s on the Hulls?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It would be amusing - Ashurst is entirely without ticket issuing facilities, which would mean free journeys from there using the Southern DOO model!

Seriously, not even a permit to travel machine?!