Greater Anglia post May 2015

[badassunicorn]

I wonder what will happen to the rest of Greater Anglia once the WA inners and Shenfield Metros have gone at the end of May next year. Do you think, that having a more consolidated route will enable GA to improve other services/stock? Or with their big money metro services gone will they struggle to improve things for those further outside London?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what will happen to the rest of Greater Anglia once the WA inners and Shenfield Metros have gone at the end of May next year. Do you think, that having a more consolidated route will enable GA to improve other services/stock? Or with their big money metro services gone will they struggle to improve things for those further outside London?

I think LM are better for not having to worry about London metro services like Silverlink did. Though I suppose evidence is that Silverlink *didn't* really worry about them, which is why they were crap.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

One of the slightly odd bits is that they'll still be running "Metro" route to Hertford East

 

[59CosG95]

One of the slightly odd bits is that they'll still be running "Metro" route to Hertford East

But that will eventually fall into the hands of Crossrail 2...

 

[jamesontheroad]

Do you think, that having a more consolidated route will enable GA to improve other services/stock?

While I think having a more focused route structure should help, I can't say that much I've seen or experienced of GA leads me to expect them to improve. Just like Northern, Abellio seem perfectly content to trundle along investing the bare minimum in rolling stock maintenance and refurbishment, with little of the innovation (new routes, etc) demonstrated by their predecessor.

 

[colchesterken]

Our problem is the layout. Went to London last week got the crack 1900. non stop to Colchester, it still took 48 mins for 52 miles
How long to do 52 miles on GWR or East or West coast, what we need is the new station in outer Chelmsford and all stoppers waiting in loops there and Witham for fasts to overtake
New signals to allow at least 100 to Shenfield then 125 to Colchester ( dont care after that ) Ohh and a high speed junction at Eastgates to get to town station quicker

 

[jopsuk]

Our problem is the layout. Went to London last week got the crack 1900. non stop to Colchester, it still took 48 mins for 52 miles
How long to do 52 miles on GWR or East or West coast, what we need is the new station in outer Chelmsford and all stoppers waiting in loops there and Witham for fasts to overtake
New signals to allow at least 100 to Shenfield then 125 to Colchester ( dont care after that ) Ohh and a high speed junction at Eastgates to get to town station quicker

You're not ambitious enough, clearly. What's, ahem, needed for the GEML is six tracks to Shenfield (2x Crossrail, 2x suburban, 2x Intercity), 4 tracks as far as Haughley Junction (north of Stowmarket), with the Intercity tracks throughout configured for 200mph running. Meanwhile the West Anglia should have a four-track line running to Harlow (with that being an additional LO/Crossrail X terminus), line speed upgrade to 125mph. Add in Stansted-Braintree-Colchester and Cambridge-Haverhill-Colchester, all into a sub surface interchange in Colchester.

Wibbling obviously. But think big!

 

[chubs]

Surely Abelio are just doing what they were contracted to do, and whatever happens post in the future will be dependant on what the DfT specifies regarding service levels, new stock etc?

Oh and a few politicians and their 'Norwich in 90' campaign of course

 

[91104]

I'm curious to know what will happen to the first 2 up services from Southend Victoria that I catch regularly as these are currently booked for class 315s as they call at all stations up to Ilford as I'm guessing London Overground will take all the 315s so hopefully will get a faster service with class 321s running non stop from Shenfield to Stratford.

 

[Class 170101]

Our problem is the layout. Went to London last week got the crack 1900. non stop to Colchester, it still took 48 mins for 52 miles
How long to do 52 miles on GWR or East or West coast, what we need is the new station in outer Chelmsford and all stoppers waiting in loops there and Witham for fasts to overtake
New signals to allow at least 100 to Shenfield then 125 to Colchester ( dont care after that ) Ohh and a high speed junction at Eastgates to get to town station quicker

You could never get 125 on the GEML unless you closed all the AHB and user worked level crossings or made them Full Barriers but doubtless that would need a full risk assessment as a new installation. The Full Barrierred crossing also have to be monitored by signaller unlike AHBs.

Norwich in 90 isn't exactly ambitious and could almost certainly be achieved by using the existing infrastructure, a remodelled timetable and higher acceleration trains.

 

[dk1]

Makes no difference whatsoever whether a bigger or smaller TOC. All written in to the DfT contract & should it change they are protected & compensated. Why else would anyone bother to bid?

 

[w0033944]

You could never get 125 on the GEML unless you closed all the AHB and user worked level crossings or made them Full Barriers but doubtless that would need a full risk assessment as a new installation. The Full Barrierred crossing also have to be monitored by signaller unlike AHBs.

Norwich in 90 isn't exactly ambitious and could almost certainly be achieved by using the existing infrastructure, a remodelled timetable and higher acceleration trains.

My local GEML crossing, Swainsthorpe AHB, is a good example - houses on three sides and an NR building with access from the road on the fourth means that bridging would be impossible unless the line dropped through the village and climbed the other side. Closure would chop the village in half with a 1 1/2 mile round trip via single-track lanes to get from one side of the line to the other with a vehicle, so full barriers would be the only practical option.

 

[racyrich]

You're not ambitious enough, clearly. What's, ahem, needed for the GEML is six tracks to Shenfield (2x Crossrail, 2x suburban, 2x Intercity), 4 tracks as far as Haughley Junction (north of Stowmarket), with the Intercity tracks throughout configured for 200mph running. Meanwhile the West Anglia should have a four-track line running to Harlow (with that being an additional LO/Crossrail X terminus), line speed upgrade to 125mph. Add in Stansted-Braintree-Colchester and Cambridge-Haverhill-Colchester, all into a sub surface interchange in Colchester.

Wibbling obviously. But think big!

And here is Network Rail's CP5 wibble:

In the longer term it is not feasible to operate additional outer and long distance services beyond 28 trains per hour over the GEML without a prohibitively expensive capacity upgrade between Shenfield and London Liverpool Street. It is therefore proposed to consider the scheme put forward in the London to Ipswich Multi-Modal (LOIS) Study. This scheme involved four-tracking between Colchester and Chelmsford and then building a new line across to the LUL Central Line and then running into a proposed Crossrail line 2 alignment, thereby enabling additional outer services to operate. However this would need to be considered in the context of the best use for Crossrail line 2 (further details below) and is therefore only one of a number of potential options.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...iture plans/route plans/anglia route plan.pdf

 

[Class 170101]

Crossrail two seems to be heading up towards West Anglia land and Cheshunt so I think the GE option described is a dead duck.

As for 28 paths an hour I would like to see that applied in practise, I don't think it would last long.

 

[Bald Rick]

You could never get 125 on the GEML unless you closed all the AHB and user worked level crossings or made them Full Barriers but doubtless that would need a full risk assessment as a new installation. The Full Barrierred crossing also have to be monitored by signaller unlike AHBs.

Norwich in 90 isn't exactly ambitious and could almost certainly be achieved by using the existing infrastructure, a remodelled timetable and higher acceleration trains.

With new trains, Norwich in 90 is possible now. It just means not stopping anywhere else except Ipswich, and clearing a lot of other trains out of the timetable. Quite a few previously keen MPs didn't like that proposal.

Aside from the level crossings, getting to 125 is relatively easy once you have re spaced most of the signals, upgraded the overhead line, boosted the power supply, provided new positions of safety for track workers, strengthened a few bridges and recanted almost every curve.

But, as the former track engineer for the patch once told me, getting it to 125 is easy. Keeping it at 125 is altogether a different matter, especially with most of the route bring built on clay, or having heavy, fast freight twice an hour, or both.

 

[Chris125]

Crossrail two seems to be heading up towards West Anglia land and Cheshunt so I think the GE option described is a dead duck.

They are safeguarding the route of a third branch towards Hackney Central, so the option does appear to remain open.

Chris

 

[Class 170101]

It will be interesting to know whether you could physically reach 125 between Ipswich and Norwich calling at both Diss and Stowmarket or whether you would be braking so soon after having reached it to make it pointless.

In any event I don't think 125 is the most important aspect. One thing I always remember being told, raise your minimum speeds not your maximum speeds.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be interesting to know whether you could physically reach 125 between Ipswich and Norwich calling at both Diss and Stowmarket or whether you would be braking so soon after having reached it to make it pointless.

In any event I don't think 125 is the most important aspect. One thing I always remember being told, raise your minimum speeds not your maximum speeds.

In theory you can, but not for long.

But you are quite right about minimum speeds. And the easiest minimum speed to raise is the 0mph for 2 minutes when stopped at a station.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder how much time could you gain by replacing the 90s with higher accelerating EMUs (say 379s) on the Norwich services.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder how much time could you gain by replacing the 90s with higher accelerating EMUs (say 379s) on the Norwich services.

4-6 mins on the current stopping patterns.

 

[chubs]

Were the 170's faster than the MK2+86 when they briefly operated norwich to lst?

 

[dk1]

Were the 170's faster than the MK2+86 when they briefly operated norwich to lst?

About the same really. Not much in it on acceleration, both 100mph. If anything 170s had the edge as station dwell times where reduced.

 

[GB]

Ohh and a high speed junction at Eastgates to get to town station quicker

You won't get that as firstly it would be a waste of money and secondly the curvature of the triangle would prevent any meaningful increase.

 

[Class 170101]

About the same really. Not much in it on acceleration, both 100mph. If anything 170s had the edge as station dwell times where reduced.

Lost slightly on running times but made up in dwell times, so no difference end to end, just the capacity of course. Unlikely to see a 170 south of Colchester unless formed of 6 vehicles (2x3) or 9 (3x3).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder how much time could you gain by replacing the 90s with higher accelerating EMUs (say 379s) on the Norwich services.

4-6 mins on the current stopping patterns.

Did you include dwell times in that calculation? If not then 2½ to 3 minutes additonal in dwell times probably could be removed with the abolition of slam door stock.

 

[dk1]

Lost slightly on running times but made up in dwell times, so no difference end to end, just the capacity of course. Unlikely to see a 170 south of Colchester unless formed of 6 vehicles (2x3) or 9 (3x3).

It has happened several times since, the last being an 8-car during the Summer. I never lost anytime when i worked them on the route.

 

[Class 170101]

It has happened several times since, the last being an 8-car during the Summer. I never lost anytime when i worked them on the route.

Didn't realise an eight car managed to be found with all the hard wotrking of the DMU fleet, as for not losing time thats no surprise.

 

[dk1]

Didn't realise an eight car managed to be found with all the hard wotrking of the DMU fleet, as for not losing time thats no surprise.

Where theres a will...

 

[306024]

I'm curious to know what will happen to the first 2 up services from Southend Victoria that I catch regularly as these are currently booked for class 315s as they call at all stations up to Ilford as I'm guessing London Overground will take all the 315s so hopefully will get a faster service with class 321s running non stop from Shenfield to Stratford.

That is a good guess 315s will no longer stable at Southend, and Southend drivers will no longer have 315 traction knowledge.

As for 28 paths an hour I would like to see that applied in practise, I don't think it would last long.

I wouldn't

Some parts of the signalling can't support that frequency, so it would probably have to wait for ECTS, which is a way off for the GEML. Even then with the mix of stopping patterns on the Colchester line to spread the loadings it would be a challenge, unless the extra trains came from the Southend line.

 

[CapitalStar378]

This is from the Anglia RUS which sounds like it may disappoint those hoping to avoid longitudinal seats on the LO WA services;

6.4.3 On services from Enfield Town to London Liverpool Street,
and from Chingford to London Liverpool Street, the introduction of
high density rolling stock planned by Transport for London when
they take over the responsibility for these services in 2015 is
expected to cater for the forecast demand up to 2043.

Guess it depends on the meaning of high density, there could be a mix of transverse and longitudinal.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is from the Anglia RUS which sounds like it may disappoint those hoping to avoid longitudinal seats on the LO WA services;

6.4.3 On services from Enfield Town to London Liverpool Street,
and from Chingford to London Liverpool Street, the introduction of
high density rolling stock planned by Transport for London when
they take over the responsibility for these services in 2015 is
expected to cater for the forecast demand up to 2043.

Guess it depends on the meaning of high density, there could be a mix of transverse and longitudinal.

This isn't new news, the previous Greater Anglia RUS had also suggested trains with 378 style interiors for these routes:

Consideration should be given to providing Class 378 or similar rolling stock with high passenger capacity layout, which it is expected will be necessary to accommodate long term increases in passenger demand on West Anglia Inner-suburban services and improve performance by reducing station dwell times in the peak.

To be exact, the latest draft is not an RUS (Route utilisation strategy) but the new type of Route Study.