Northern Rail - ASLEF to ballot members.

[jay252]

So here's the situation,

Aslef and northern have been locked in talks regarding this year's (April 2014) pay rise.
The first offer was 2.7% backdated to April followed by 2.5% next April. This was turned down.
The next and final offer was 2.7% backdated to April followed by 2.5% or RPI, whichever was greater.
This was also turned down and now members are to be balloted to strike over the pay deal.

The reason for this seems to be that the deal does sound favourable although the headline salary is not good enough compared to other TOCS. Northern claim they will not budge and aslef members seem in favour of striking.

So the question is.....what is everyone's view on this?

 

[Tomnick]

Is the ballot only in relation to the pay deal? I gather that it's not a happy ship generally, so there could be rather a lot more to it than just that.

 

[455driver]

What else was attached to the paydeal?

Normally disputes are about the strings more than the %age offered!
But then, that wouldnt be very newsworthy would it!

 

[jay252]

The initial ballot (due to start today) was due to what has been deemed an unacceptable pay deal.
Further issues have however come to light, such as northern ALLEDGEDLY saying managers will be used to cover shortages (this is prior to any strikes...due to cancellations and warnings from the dft) and northern have also said anyone who strikes will not get the pay deal backdated, but if you don't strike you can have the pay deal and get the back pay.
It's rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way!

 

[455driver]

Yeah but what other things were attached to the paydeal or was it a straight %age offer with no strings, you dont seem to want to answer that for some reason!

 

[Emyr]

northern have also said anyone who strikes will not get the pay deal backdated, but if you don't strike you can have the pay deal and get the back pay.

Is that even legal?

 

[northwichcat]

Is that even legal?

I don't think so. However, a lot of what's said by both sides during a dispute is exaggerated. Northern may have said accept the offer as it is or they'll withdraw it or similar.

 

[jay252]

As far as I'm aware and from what we have been told from the aslef reps it is all down to the % of the deal that has been offered.
Northern and TPE used to be 1 franchise until they split, now from the time that the two became separate franchises the difference in pay between northern drivers and TPE drivers is approximately £3,500. This is what the issue appears to be. Northern drivers overall salary is falling behind most other TOCS.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern and TPE used to be 1 franchise until they split, now from the time that the two became separate franchises the difference in pay between northern drivers and TPE drivers is approximately £3,500. This is what the issue appears to be. Northern drivers overall salary is falling behind most other TOCS.

Work in the north of England and you expect to earn less than equivalent employees in other parts of the country.

Whether Northern drivers should earn the same as TPE ones is a difficult one. Northern drivers learn more traction types so you could argue you're more highly skilled. However, TPE drivers work for an employer who has a better cashflow.

Actually there's always been 2 franchises in the North, for most of 2004 there was 3 (TPE started in early 2004, while FNW and ATN were merged in late 2004.) It's just it's no longer an East/West split.

 

[T3P0]

Yeah but what other things were attached to the paydeal or was it a straight %age offer with no strings, you dont seem to want to answer that for some reason!

No strings. Just the stated offer.

 

[455driver]

No strings. Just the stated offer.

Thanks for answering!

In that case I think it is a reasonable offer!

 

[Emyr]

In that case I think it is a reasonable offer!

That depends whether the current payscales for Northern Rail drivers are unreasonably low or not.

 

[455driver]

But in the current climate any payrise is good, other people are not getting one (and havent for a few years) so the drivers wont get any support off the public for a start.

We (FGW) accepted 2.7% once ASLEF managed to get it re-offered after ASLEF turned it down first time round, much to the members chagrin.

 

[TDK]

and northern have also said anyone who strikes will not get the pay deal backdated, but if you don't strike you can have the pay deal and get the back pay.
It's rubbing a lot of people up the wrong way!

Where your source on this statement or is it just hearsay, surely Northern are not that stupid as to publish something like that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for answering!

In that case I think it is a reasonable offer!

The thing is it all depends on when the deal first opened as we all know the RPI has now plummeted. The RPI in February I think was about 3.5%. The only thing Northern can really do is offer the pay that the RPI was when the paydeal initialised and the RPI that is current for the next year. If Northern will not budge on this a strike is almost certain I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But in the current climate any payrise is good, other people are not getting one (and havent for a few years) so the drivers wont get any support off the public for a start.

I really don't think the drivers are too worried about support from the public.

 

[jay252]

If this website allowed me to upload images from my phone I would show you the evidence!

 

[ComUtoR]

Work in the north of England and you expect to earn less than equivalent employees in other parts of the country.

They currently earn more than Southeastern Drivers. **

I fully support them if they decide to strike. Often the threat of a strike is enough to go back into negotiations.

Q. If members are balloted and a yes vote is successful what happens next ? Does a date get set immediately ? After a date gets set I assume that it can still get called off should they renegotiate ?

Cheers

** Salary Comparison
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/nrail/

Northern Rail (ATN) £44,197 Northern Rail (FNW) £41,625 Southeastern £43,391

Whats the difference between (ATN) and (FNW) ?

 

[trainophile]

All this week they have been tweeting trains cancelled or starting short "due to a member of train staff being unavailable". There have been four or five every day. I've just arrived at Manchester Picc and the first thing I heard was yet another cancellation for this reason. What on earth is going on? Unofficial pre-strike action?

 

[Monty]

If this website allowed me to upload images from my phone I would show you the evidence!

Use Imgur to upload the image and then you can link it to the forums.

 

[westv]

All this week they have been tweeting trains cancelled or starting short "due to a member of train staff being unavailable". There have been four or five every day. I've just arrived at Manchester Picc and the first thing I heard was yet another cancellation for this reason. What on earth is going on? Unofficial pre-strike action?

Half term?

 

[Mag_seven]

So here's the situation,

The first offer was 2.7% backdated to April followed by 2.5% next April. This was turned down.
The next and final offer was 2.7% backdated to April followed by 2.5% or RPI, whichever was greater.
This was also turned down and now members are to be balloted to strike over the pay deal.

Many people in this country have had next to no pay rises in the last few years. It's about time train drivers were brought kicking and screaming into the real world. 2.7% is a good offer in the current climate.

 

[Tomnick]

As I've already asked, is the ballot just about the pay deal, or are the already very poor (as I understand it) industrial relations playing a part too?

 

[jay252]

Google the question and a forum comes up with all the information....its www.wx something or another.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where your source on this statement or is it just hearsay, surely Northern are not that stupid as to publish something like that?....

You'd be surprised what Northern will say to get 'the right response'.

Remember that dispute Northern had with the RMT over the use of agency staff? The one where the RMT said Northern should employ the staff directly? The one where Northern told their staff (not just the union members) that the RMT "wanted Northern to sack the agency staff"?

....** Salary Comparison
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/nrail/

Northern Rail (ATN) £44,197 Northern Rail (FNW) £41,625 Southeastern £43,391

Whats the difference between (ATN) and (FNW) ?

Northern were supposed to 'harmonise' between Arriva Trains Northern (ATN) grades and First North Western (FNW) grades. ATN had higher pay, FNW had better conditions. The unions naturally wanted the higher pay of the ATN grades with the conditions of the FNW grades and Northern wanted the pay of the FNW grades and the conditions of the ATN grades. As you can imagine, no agreement was made, hence two different pay rates.

 

[ComUtoR]

Northern were supposed to 'harmonise' between Arriva Trains Northern (ATN) grades and First North Western (FNW) grades. ATN had higher pay, FNW had better conditions. The unions naturally wanted the higher pay of the ATN grades with the conditions of the FNW grades and Northern wanted the pay of the FNW grades and the conditions of the ATN grades. As you can imagine, no agreement was made, hence two different pay rates.

Many thanks.

I assume then that FNW are the ones being balloted. Even if it was ATN I would still 100% support their decision to strike.

 

[muz379]

As far as I'm aware and from what we have been told from the aslef reps it is all down to the % of the deal that has been offered.
Northern and TPE used to be 1 franchise until they split, now from the time that the two became separate franchises the difference in pay between northern drivers and TPE drivers is approximately £3,500. This is what the issue appears to be. Northern drivers overall salary is falling behind most other TOCS.

I dont think it did used to be 1 franchise , routes and traction have swapped between them many times in the past though .

Pay isnt the only thing you need to compare tho its conditions too .

TPE do get 3.5k more basic pay , however they sign less routes and have Sundays in the working week which is more of a limitation on RDW .

And Virgin drivers get paid about £8000 more than Northern drivers .

But they too have sundays in their working week and split rostering .

Actually there's always been 2 franchises in the North, for most of 2004 there was 3 (TPE started in early 2004, while FNW and ATN were merged in late 2004.) It's just it's no longer an East/West split.

There is not a E/W split in terms of franchise , however internally within Northern there is no harmonization between E & W

But in the current climate any payrise is good, other people are not getting one (and havent for a few years) so the drivers wont get any support off the public for a start.

We (FGW) accepted 2.7% once ASLEF managed to get it re-offered after ASLEF turned it down first time round, much to the members chagrin.

The public support does worry me as a guard because rail staff all get lumped in one and the same when it comes to the publics perception . And as a grade that needs public support im worried .

They currently earn more than Southeastern Drivers. **

I fully support them if they decide to strike. Often the threat of a strike is enough to go back into negotiations.

Q. If members are balloted and a yes vote is successful what happens next ? Does a date get set immediately ? After a date gets set I assume that it can still get called off should they renegotiate ?

Cheers

** Salary Comparison
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/nrail/

Northern Rail (ATN) £44,197 Northern Rail (FNW) £41,625 Southeastern £43,391

Whats the difference between (ATN) and (FNW) ?

Whilst the two franchises where merged , the new TOC Northern never managed to negotiate with the company councils to harmonize T&C's from the two different TOC's so you still have pay and condition difference between Traincrew on the East and Western side of the franchise .

All this week they have been tweeting trains cancelled or starting short "due to a member of train staff being unavailable". There have been four or five every day. I've just arrived at Manchester Picc and the first thing I heard was yet another cancellation for this reason. What on earth is going on? Unofficial pre-strike action?

From what ive seen there has been a high number of unit casualties , probably the first sign of cold weather and all that .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many thanks.

I assume then that FNW are the ones being balloted. Even if it was ATN I would still 100% support their decision to strike.

I believe it is all Drivers represented by ASLEF accross the whole franchise

 

[jay252]

Just to note.... northern (former atn), Sundays are inside the working week. Only northern (former fnw) have Sundays outside.

 

[PG]

Firstly forgive me if this is a slightly simplistic view from someone outside the industry.

Back in the mid 90s after privatisation a fair few TOCs were under the ownership of one or other of the bus groups. Said bus groups decided they could make economies by getting less train drivers doing more work i.e. increase productivity. They kind of shot themselves in the foot as they ended up with barely enough drivers to cover the work and given that the time period to recruit and train drivers is in the region of 18 - 24 months, never mind the circa £100k cost, it was easier to increase wages in an attempt to poach other TOCs drivers. Thus we end up with the situation, as one TOC after another attempted to maintain staffing levels, that drivers wages increased significantly compared to pre-privatisation levels.

Fast forward to now and, as I read it, drivers wages at Northern have for various reasons slipped down the league table of pay at the TOCs. Understandably the drivers at Northern aren't to happy about this as in their eyes their spending power has declined in real terms compared to drivers at other TOCs. Hence why, especially if as has been hinted at in this thread industrial relations are currently poor, the drivers (through their union) are considering taking strike action even though in the current climate a 2.7% increase sounds a decent offer especially to those outside the industry. However the wages of those outside the industry are a somewhat secondary concern compared to their own wages - it's not as if were the drivers to forego their pay rise that those in other industries would be offered it instead!

Think it comes down to a game of buff and who blinks first -

are there enough jobs going at other TOCs that enough Northern drivers would leave, possibly even relocating for said jobs, so that Northern management would find covering diagrams difficult thus jeopardising the franchise or retention of it at retendering?​

verses;

are there enough new recruits available to fill positions reasonably quickly so that, even given the cost of taking on and training new drivers, it is more cost-effective not to amend the current pay offer to drivers?​

FWIW my guess is the offer will, eventually, be revised to a point where it is accepted by the drivers.

 

[SPADTrap]

Many people in this country have had next to no pay rises in the last few years. It's about time train drivers were brought kicking and screaming into the real world. 2.7% is a good offer in the current climate.

Maybe "many people" should try do something about that! Fight for yourself and your industry. I'm sure if "people" put half the effort they spent complaining about what others get into securing something for themselves they'd actually get somewhere! Horribly British thing to do, focusing on what others get and ignoring yourself for some odd reason...

 

[northernchris]

are there enough jobs going at other TOCs that enough Northern drivers would leave, possibly even relocating for said jobs, so that Northern management would find covering diagrams difficult thus jeopardising the franchise or retention of it at retendering?​

verses;

are there enough new recruits available to fill positions reasonably quickly so that, even given the cost of taking on and training new drivers, it is more cost-effective not to amend the current pay offer to drivers?​

As has already been mentioned there has been numerous cancellations this week due to a lack of traincrew - Blackpool seems particularly badly affected this week. However as Abellio are bidding separately from Serco I'm not sure if Northern's current performance will be taken in to account for the new franchise

From what I've read elsewhere on the forum there are many new recruits in training, although given the timescales required to train a driver it is unlikely to be quicker to take on additional staff. Hopefully Northern and ASLEF can resolve this issue before it goes to a strike

 

[muz379]

Maybe "many people" should try do something about that! Fight for yourself and your industry. I'm sure if "people" put half the effort they spent complaining about what others get into securing something for themselves they'd actually get somewhere! Horribly British thing to do, focusing on what others get and ignoring yourself for some odd reason...

Arguably is this not what the FBU is doing with its long campaign now of strikes over the pension dispute , and Unite did earlier this month with NHS staff going on strike .

Some industries like Retail though are ridiculously un unionized meaning employers can just do what they please .

Firstly forgive me if this is a slightly simplistic view from someone outside the industry.

Back in the mid 90s after privatisation a fair few TOCs were under the ownership of one or other of the bus groups. Said bus groups decided they could make economies by getting less train drivers doing more work i.e. increase productivity. They kind of shot themselves in the foot as they ended up with barely enough drivers to cover the work and given that the time period to recruit and train drivers is in the region of 18 - 24 months, never mind the circa £100k cost, it was easier to increase wages in an attempt to poach other TOCs drivers. Thus we end up with the situation, as one TOC after another attempted to maintain staffing levels, that drivers wages increased significantly compared to pre-privatisation levels.

Alex Hynes said recently on a radio program he did that its 36 months to train a driver which is in line with my understanding of matters . So even if you have a driver shortage today unless you can get loads of qualified drivers in or get people to transfer around depots to alleviate some of the shortest depots you are going to have a chronic issue of driver shortage for 36 months . But then the cycle repeats because people leave for various reasons in that 36 months .

Given that there is also a finite capacity in training resources and a lot of depots fighting to get their recruits on the courses you are leading to a bottleneck in filling the boots of Men that are leaving .

are there enough jobs going at other TOCs that enough Northern drivers would leave, possibly even relocating for said jobs, so that Northern management would find covering diagrams difficult thus jeopardising the franchise or retention of it at retendering?​

there are drivers leaving for other TOCS . But northern in its current form is not bidding so whilst there will be financial penalities for leaving the TOC in a mess im sure that the issue doesnt impact as much as some wished .

are there enough new recruits available to fill positions reasonably quickly so that, even given the cost of taking on and training new drivers, it is more cost-effective not to amend the current pay offer to drivers?​

FWIW my guess is the offer will, eventually, be revised to a point where it is accepted by the drivers.

Its not necessarilly the number of new recruits they have to worry about , everytime they advertise for jobs they get saturated with apps . There are numerous Guards in depots up and down the franchise nervous about the implications of the DOO proposals for the new franchise . Add to that the off the street apps and there are possibly too many apps .

The bottleneck is in getting the recruits out driving on their own , as I said above Alex Hynes reckons its 36 months to train a driver .Its very resource heavy and those resources can only stretch so far .

I hope the offer is revised to an acceptable level because that means I get paid more as well as it is a non management grade offer so I am also eligible for it . However I dont see a revision personally .