Britain ordered to pay £1.7bn by Europe

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't speak for the rest of the population but personally I couldn't care less whether the treasury has already budgeted for it or not. I can think of better things to spend £1.7 billion on.

Do you know what the EU will be spending it on? For all we know, the EU may well spend it on stuff that's just as deserving as anything you or I can think of. Since there's been no comment in the media on what work the EU does with the money, it's impossible to tell either way. Indeed, since the EU does spend money in the UK, it's possible that some of that money would have come back to the UK anyway. I don't know whether it will, but equally, those politicians (from all parties, it seems ) who are engaging in this silly, mindless, nationalistic posturing about the money probably don't know that it won't.

 

[N Levers]

Do you know what the EU will be spending it on? For all we know, the EU may well spend it on stuff that's just as deserving as anything you or I can think of. Since there's been no comment in the media on what work the EU does with the money, it's impossible to tell either way. Indeed, since the EU does spend money in the UK, it's possible that some of that money would have come back to the UK anyway. I don't know whether it will, but equally, those politicians (from all parties, it seems ) who are engaging in this silly, mindless, nationalistic posturing about the money probably don't know that it won't.

The money goes to Countries such as Germany and France who paid too much to the EU. If I recall France will be getting back around 800 million Euros.

 

[muz379]

Assuming of course that 'dieing' isn't considered as something that impairs your ability to control heavy machinery
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Right now, Nigel Farage doesn't need to convince the majority of people he's responsible. To make a massive splash this time round, he simply needs to convince maybe 15% of registered electorate to vote for him.

And realistically, there are probably more than enough people who are angry/don't understand economics/don't-believe-what-scientists-say-about-anything-including-smoking/etc. to make up that number of votes. An image of being in a pub and smoking is probably helpful for securing that section of the electorate. Even if the entire other 85% were convinced that he's irresponsible/silly/whatever, then that's still lets him get him the votes he wants.

Arguably gaining the first MP is a splash , if they get another one than that is particularly embarrassing for the main party in government .

Thats the thing he can promise things that he wont be in a position after the next election to actually deliver and will be able to carry on making the flase promises . Their plan isnt to win the election becase that would be bad news for them . Their plan is to get enough MP's and share of the vote to embarass the main parties and to have a really loud voice .

I think one of the groups they are targeting is the pub experts . The type of men predominately who like to mouth off about David Cameron and the Eu and Human rights and elf and safety gone mad . But then dont vote . UKIP is trying to look like it is the party for them . The "im not being racist mate but all them (racial slur) are over ere taking our jobs "crowd.If UKIP can get enough of them that dont currently vote to go and vote for them by seeming to back the agenda of these people then they can create their own new share of the vote .

The mad thing is is farage is just as much an elitists from a posh background than the rest of them in westminster . Its just that a cigarette and a pint is making people who should hate him side with him .
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The money goes to Countries such as Germany and France who paid too much to the EU. If I recall France will be getting back around 800 million Euros.

Its a bit like UKIP the isnt it , Where some of the expenses Nigel Farage claims go to employing his German wife .

 

[SS4]

Or just has to wait for the next pronouncement from the European Commission to do his work for him.

Do you know where to find them? What we hear is spin from a media largely against the EU. Does anyone know the last EU story which was positive?

 

[yorksrob]

Do you know where to find them? What we hear is spin from a media largely against the EU. Does anyone know the last EU story which was positive?

Not the one that bumped up our subs by 1.7 billion. And Greece as well, one of the countries that has been shafted the most EU hubris via the Euro fiasco.

Every country in Europe has had to cut their budgets since the recession. The EU should be doing the same, not demanding member countries stump up more.

 

[muz379]

Just off my top of the head, something good I can think of that the EU has done for me recently is the vote the commission had which brought in reforms to regulation in the telecoms industry

The best change that this implemented was an end to roaming charges in the EU , meaning when I visit France , Spain ,Germany,Italy and Poland (all places I plan to visit in the next 18 months ) I can take my phone with me and not worry that I am going to face a stupidly high bill when I return home .

David Cameron even spoke of how he was pleased this was happening and was looking forward to further market integration . It seems he only really speaks tough on the EU when his backbenchers throw a strop .

The EU commission was prepared to vote that change in despite clashes with the telecoms industry and the proposition that it could take 2-3pc off the revenue of mobile companies . Meanwhile back in the good old UK our politicians cant even get Vodafone to pay their taxes right .It seems like Id rather we withdraw from westminster

As for other good things the EU has done for us is , Im sure that any women here will apreciate the fact that they are entitled to be paid the same as men . And any older people can rejoice in the fact that EU law gurantees them the right to be protected from age based discrimination in the workplace .Some of the good the EU has done would of course have happened independantly in its own right . However would it have happened so soon without EU pressures .

Every country in Europe has had to cut their budgets since the recession. The EU should be doing the same, not demanding member countries stump up more.

Interestingly both in real terms and as a percentage of GDP we are spending more now than we where in 2007 . Central gov spending in 2007 was around £400bn , now it is in excess of £560bn . So arguably if we have more money to spend on domestic matters

Add to that the fact that Osbourne likes to keep telling us that the government plan is working and the economy is improving .Meaning you are liable to pay more to the supranational organisations you are a part of

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately Government spending involves many elements that are non discretionary, such as out of work benefits which necessarily increase in times of recession, or in work benefits when, as at present, economic recovery doesn't generate recovery in wages. This is why overall spending is going up at the same time thar cuts in more discretionary spending have to be made.

This is why supernational organisations should play their part in cutting down and the EU has failed in that.

 

[Deerfold]

I hate smoking and I have never tried a cigarette in my life. However, at least heavy smoking doesn't impair your ability to control heavy machinery, and doesn't make people behave in ways they wouldn't otherwise, unlike heavy drinking.

How about a heavy smoker who's not been able to have a smoke for a few hours. Do you think they might be more distracted or have their ability to concentrate affected?

 

[Johnuk123]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-coalition-collapses-eu-referendum-bill-225822689.html

A bid to set in law a proposed British referendum on EU membership failed on Tuesday, with both parties in the coalition government blaming the other.

Another day and yet another boost to UKIP.

On a side note the latest Rochester betting.
Conservatives - 6/1
UKIP -1/6

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How about a heavy smoker who's not been able to have a smoke for a few hours. Do you think they might be more distracted or have their ability to concentrate affected?

No-one can answer this question better than Butts

 

[muz379]

Unfortunately Government spending involves many elements that are non discretionary, such as out of work benefits which necessarily increase in times of recession, or in work benefits when, as at present, economic recovery doesn't generate recovery in wages. This is why overall spending is going up at the same time thar cuts in more discretionary spending have to be made.

This is why supernational organisations should play their part in cutting down and the EU has failed in that.

You are right in saying some of it is out of the governments hands . The biggest increase of nearly £50bn is pensions . We have an aging population and so many predict pension spending spiraling out of control in years to come .

The next biggest increase is in healthcare , now there was me thinking the government was pursuing an economic plan of austerity and making the NHS make cost savings . Perhaps not .
Same with education . increases there of about £15bn

I thought unemployment has also hit a new low since the recession started meaning your points about out of work benefits arent quite true .

Welfare funding has only risen by about £10bn since then which will probably mostly cover in work benefits because of the compounding effect of wages wising below the rate of inflation .

Ultimately either you accept George Osbourne assertion that things are looking up with the economy albeit not as quick as the government wanted . Which means as our economy has improved meaning we owe out supranational organization more than we actually thought .

Either that or the economy is not improving one bit and George osbourne is a liar . And so we dont owe the EU £1.7bn

Im not a big fan of Osbourne but id be more inclined to believe that as is he in possession of the statistics and they show the economy is on the mend again meaning we now owe more than we did .

The sheer fact that economic factors are taken into account in deciding how much we pay into the EU backs up what you are saying . I agree in times of recession we should have to put less in however the sheer fact that the EU are saying things are looking up for you we want more money shows that is the process .

Its £1.7bn .Given that the country has not been bankrupt by increasing spending by £120bn since 2008 I dont think that an extra £1.7bn is going to tip us over the edge .

 

[SS4]

Not the one that bumped up our subs by 1.7 billion. And Greece as well, one of the countries that has been shafted the most EU hubris via the Euro fiasco.

Every country in Europe has had to cut their budgets since the recession. The EU should be doing the same, not demanding member countries stump up more.

What if you changed those last three words to "pay their dues"? It's quite odd how we demand large companies pay their fair share of tactics and legislation should be passed to enforce this but not with the country as a whole

Another day and yet another boost to UKIP.

I wish you were wrong. It seems few want to look at UKIP's domestic policies. If they did they'd see they're a party of the rich just like the parties they claim to be different from.
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Its £1.7bn .Given that the country has not been bankrupt by increasing spending by £120bn since 2008 I dont think that an extra £1.7bn is going to tip us over the edge .

It's not. Cameron just wants to look good at home and to look good entails you must be anti Europe

 

[gordonthemoron]

SNP reckon that Cameron knew about this in May. Is Cameron a buffoon or up to no good?

 

[Butts]

No-one can answer this question better than Butts

It really depends on the circumstances. If you are expecting to not be able to smoke it is annoying but bearable.

However if an unexpected occurrence results in no access to tobacco then that is a different matter. For example an Aircraft delay when you are airside and there are no smoking facilities. :cry:

 

[Oswyntail]

What if you changed those last three words to "pay their dues"? It's quite odd how we demand large companies pay their fair share of tactics and legislation should be passed to enforce this but not with the country as a whole

What anyone - companies, governments, individuals - should be expected to do when confronted with an unexpectedly large bill with a demand for instant payment is eaxmine it in detail. As far as I can tell, this is what is happening.

I wish you were wrong. It seems few want to look at UKIP's domestic policies. If they did they'd see they're a party of the rich just like the parties they claim to be different from.

Sorry, but none of them is "a party for the rich" - that is a cliche that is used when rational criticism is unavailable. Both Labour and Conservatives (and Lib Dems, really) genuinely wish to govern this country for the general good, not to benefit any particular group. They have different ideas about what is best, that is all. The sooner we can ignore this hogwash about Tories hating the poor and Labour crushing the rich, the sooner we can have a sensible debate about what needs doing. I am fed up with posturing and want thought and explanations. It is that posturing that has directly encouraged the "growth" of UKIP - none of the major parties are allowed to speak intellectually about their policies, so a party that has no sane policies can look as good as any other.

It's not. Cameron just wants to look good at home and to look good entails you must be anti Europe

Interesting statement! If by "looking good at home" you mean he (or anyone really) seeks to reflect the general domestic opinion, is that not Democracy? And should the democratic view be followed even if, in the case of, say, Europe, it is manifestly, stupidly wrong? Of course, anyone may be wrong about what the populace is thinking.

SNP reckon that Cameron knew about this in May

.Ah, the SNP, that completely disinterested purveyor of truth and accuracy.:roll:

Is Cameron a buffoon or up to no good?

Something of a fallacious dichotomy here. Cameron is patently not a buffoon, and it is difficult to see what "no good" he might be up to. A possible alternative is: earlier in the year, HMG were informed of a likely adjustment to reflect relative economic growth; when the details were given, HMG were unsurprisingly taken aback, particularly given the short notice; they examine the "workings" and express their disquiet. In other words, HMG are acting just as one would expect any sensible organisation to act.

 

[Emyr]

What anyone - companies, governments, individuals - should be expected to do when confronted with an unexpectedly large bill with a demand for instant payment is eaxmine it in detail. As far as I can tell, this is what is happening.

Either you haven't had any demands from HMRC, or you're a big enough player to afford to wine, dine and golf your way to a favourable settlement.

 

[Amberley54]

SNP reckon that Cameron knew about this in May. Is Cameron a buffoon or up to no good?

The Government has indeed known about this for several months, as it was eventually forced to admit last wveek, and the Treasury had already factored an amount not a million miles (or should that be Euros?) from the eventual figure into its planning for the Autumn statement.

 

[SS4]

What anyone - companies, governments, individuals - should be expected to do when confronted with an unexpectedly large bill with a demand for instant payment is eaxmine it in detail. As far as I can tell, this is what is happening.

It is also standard to do an investigation using a neutral party and to publish a report only when done? We only found out the government may have known more than it was letting on after the EU bashing commenced.

Sorry, but none of them is "a party for the rich" - that is a cliche that is used when rational criticism is unavailable. Both Labour and Conservatives (and Lib Dems, really) genuinely wish to govern this country for the general good, not to benefit any particular group. They have different ideas about what is best, that is all.

OK, I can give you that

The sooner we can ignore this hogwash about Tories hating the poor and Labour crushing the rich, the sooner we can have a sensible debate about what needs doing. I am fed up with posturing and want thought and explanations. It is that posturing that has directly encouraged the "growth" of UKIP - none of the major parties are allowed to speak intellectually about their policies, so a party that has no sane policies can look as good as any other.

Perhaps but it's still domestic opinion. I feel the broadcasters must also share some of the blame for the current system of sound bites and digestible policies. They're going on about Farage as though it's the second coming of Jesus and refusing to admit he is as stage managed as the others.

Interesting statement! If by "looking good at home" you mean he (or anyone really) seeks to reflect the general domestic opinion, is that not Democracy? And should the democratic view be followed even if, in the case of, say, Europe, it is manifestly, stupidly wrong? Of course, anyone may be wrong about what the populace is thinking.

The same Democracy in which a swing seat vote is worth more than a safe seat one? Our representative democracy is in place because it's impractical to have direct democracy and also because Joe Public cannot be expected to know the inner workings of the various duties? Public opinion is fickle and not always best for the country (and not just when I disagree with said opinion )


I am just sick of the anti EU sentiment which no other part of Europe seems to feel

 

[yorksrob]

Either that or the economy is not improving one bit and George osbourne is a liar . And so we dont owe the EU £1.7bn

Im not a big fan of Osbourne but id be more inclined to believe that as is he in possession of the statistics and they show the economy is on the mend again meaning we now owe more than we did .

The sheer fact that economic factors are taken into account in deciding how much we pay into the EU backs up what you are saying . I agree in times of recession we should have to put less in however the sheer fact that the EU are saying things are looking up for you we want more money shows that is the process .

Its £1.7bn .Given that the country has not been bankrupt by increasing spending by £120bn since 2008 I dont think that an extra £1.7bn is going to tip us over the edge .

To be honest, I'm not convinced that the statistics used by any of the Western countries are adequate to explain what's going on on the ground. The recovery without any wage growth is a case in point.

All European countries have been through the mangle over the past six years and the EU could have helped them to deal with the life and death costs by slimming down a little, yet countries have had to fight tooth and nail to get so much as a freeze in their budget. The fact that Greece is being shaken down says all you need to know.

 

[table38]

I am just sick of the anti EU sentiment which no other part of Europe seems to feel

I'm sure that is what the established parties want you to think, as it's a key part of their narrative to isolate UKIP.

However, Marine Le Pen (Front Nationale) is doing quite well in France, and so is Geert Wilders Dutch Freedom Party. In Holland, it's actually the Socialists that are exploiting the anti-EU sentiment.

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If Wikipedia is to be believed, then:

The elections in 2014 saw a big anti-Establishment vote in favour of eurosceptic parties taking around 25% of the seats available. Those who won their national elections include: UKIP in the UK, the first time since 1906 that a party other than Labour or the Conservatives had won a national vote, the Front national in France, Denmark's Peoples Party, SYRIZA in Greece, and second places taken by the Five Star Movement in Italy and Sinn Féin in Ireland. Following the election, European Council President Herman Van Rompuy agreed to re-evaluate the economic area's agenda and to launch consultations on future policy areas with the 28 member states

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Say that your bank had finally realised that an internal bank audit had brought to light that you had been underpaying a certain loan. Would they demand all the money back at one fell swoop?

(Please note that my favourite Radio 4 programme is "Money Box" where all unusual matters financial eventually come to light)

 

[Kite159]

Say that your bank had finally realised that an internal bank audit had brought to light that you had been underpaying a certain loan. Would they demand all the money back at one fell swoop?

(Please note that my favourite Radio 4 programme is "Money Box" where all unusual matters financial eventually come to light)

Is that the same team of auditors who have refused to sign off the accounts of the EU for 14-odd years?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is that the same team of auditors who have refused to sign off the accounts of the EU for 14-odd years?

19 isn't it?

 

[Kite159]

Is it that long? (I had 1999 in my head for some reason)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is it that long? (I had 1999 in my head for some reason)

Had a gander and this BBC article from November 2007 states:

The auditors for the EU have refused to sign off the bloc's financial accounts - for the 13th year in a row.

 

[muz379]

To be honest, I'm not convinced that the statistics used by any of the Western countries are adequate to explain what's going on on the ground. The recovery without any wage growth is a case in point.

All European countries have been through the mangle over the past six years and the EU could have helped them to deal with the life and death costs by slimming down a little, yet countries have had to fight tooth and nail to get so much as a freeze in their budget. The fact that Greece is being shaken down says all you need to know.

Its true that wages arent rising in line with inflation . Which would explain some of the increases in some of the spending but some of it seems to me to suggest that the country is doing as well as we are told we are

Greece is getting shaken down because of noise being made by the powerhouses of the EU economy. Its nothing to do with anything anybody in Brussels controls .Did Germany not make a huge noise about the Greek bailout meaning it was reduced in scope

Surely as I said the fact that the EU is looking at us and thinking we are on the up which like it or not we are and asking for more money shows how the system works . Our economy does better than we projected we pay more . I certainly wouldnt find you putting this point forward if we where one of the countries being given a rebate like France .

Say that your bank had finally realised that an internal bank audit had brought to light that you had been underpaying a certain loan. Would they demand all the money back at one fell swoop?

(Please note that my favourite Radio 4 programme is "Money Box" where all unusual matters financial eventually come to light)

I dont know because I dont have your education but I would have imagined that personal banking matters and worldwide economic affairs are completely different matters :roll:

Just like celebrity tax evasion and small time tax matters are different .

Im sure when any celebrity/famous person gets found out for tax evasion the money is demanded all at once . However the other year when I had a tax miscalculation matter HMRC allowed me to pay it back in installments through PAYE .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is that the same team of auditors who have refused to sign off the accounts of the EU for 14-odd years?

Well, look up the name of those EU auditors and then you will be well on your way to compare them to those auditors who are retained by the large UK banking organisations....

 

[table38]

Just like celebrity tax evasion and small time tax matters are different .

I'm sure you mean tax avoidance, before any celebrities sue the forum

Tax avoiding celebrities like Tony Benn...

A stalwart of the left, Tony Benn was a critic of tax avoidance measures. As an owner of expensive properties in London and the south of England, it seemed inevitable after his death in March that his family would face a hefty inheritance tax bill.

But now publication of the details of his will – coupled with records held by the Land Registry – suggests he took practical steps more than a decade ago to reduce the impact of this tax on his heirs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I dont know because I don't have your education but I would have imagined that personal banking matters and worldwide economic affairs are completely different matters :roll:

Don't you believe it. Banks have an uncomfortable habit for firstly demanding outstanding monies in one fell swoop. It is part of their banking ethos, be it a small account or a multinational group.
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However the other year when I had a tax miscalculation matter HMRC allowed me to pay it back in installments through PAYE .

Rather a large difference between the Banks and HMRC in the way outstanding monies are involved.

 

[yorksrob]

Greece is getting shaken down because of noise being made by the powerhouses of the EU economy. Its nothing to do with anything anybody in Brussels controls .Did Germany not make a huge noise about the Greek bailout meaning it was reduced in scope

But Greece is being shaken down in the same way that we are - i.e. in contributions to the EU budget, which is separate from the structural issues generated by the single currency and its trade imbalances, and the consequential bailouts.

Does Brussels not have control over its budget ?