Britain ordered to pay £1.7bn by Europe

[radamfi]

I don't think that is worth the membership fee.

Maybe you don't care but you could be ruining a lot of people's life plans. I would tolerate leaving the EU as long as Freedom of Movement is maintained, like what they have in Norway and Iceland.

A workaround could be, assuming Freedom of Movement between the UK and Ireland continues, to move to Ireland for a few years to acquire Irish citizenship, and from there you could continue to where you wanted to go in the first place.

 

[Johnuk123]

Heres the thing , of course we would still trade with our former EU partners . We would have to because aprox 50% of our export trade is with EU countries . The thing is we would then still be subject to many EU regulations on our exports . But we would not be part of the EU anymore so would have no say whatsoever in setting them . So is that more or less democratic ?

And you haven't even began to answer the question of what you would do to replace all of the jobs that would be lost when massive manufacturers withdraw from the UK if it left the EU .

Us buying cars made in Germany or Wine made in france doesnt give people in the UK jobs . And I wonder how many people would be left in this country who could afford such luxuries if employment was massively reduced .

The Economist said recently: ...the idea that leaving Europe would be `economic suicide' is complete nonsense'.

The external tariff on Britain's imports from outside Europe would disappear. We would gain more from this than we would lose from the imposition of a tariff on British exports to Europe.

The Swiss ignored the encouragement of their Government and voted against joining Europe. They have negotiated for themselves an excellent trade agreement - thereby putting a lie to the utterly false claim that no European country can possibly survive unless it becomes part of the EU.

EU regulations are already regarded as an absolute minefield. Just ask some of the foreign companies who have had eurocrats leaping up and down all over them. Many would jump at the chance to invest in a less regulated part of Europe.

If Britain left the EU it could regain power of its legal system, armed forces, and agriculture. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses would be saved from stifling European bureaucracy.English is the worlds leading business language. English dominates the Internet. Our language means that we can trade with any other country in the world.

 

[radamfi]

The UK was one of the poorest countries when it joined the EEC, with a GDP per capita roughly half of the richer countries like the Netherlands, Belgium and West Germany. The UK has almost caught up with the rest of western Europe now. The former communist countries will undoubtedly catch up with western Europe now thanks to EU membership, meaning that mass immigration from east to west will no longer be an issue.

 

[Johnuk123]

The UK was one of the poorest countries when it joined the EEC, with a GDP per capita roughly half of the richer countries like the Netherlands, Belgium and West Germany. The UK has almost caught up with the rest of western Europe now. The former communist countries will undoubtedly catch up with western Europe now thanks to EU membership, meaning that mass immigration from east to west will no longer be an issue.

When do you think that will happen?

 

[muz379]

The Economist said recently: ...the idea that leaving Europe would be `economic suicide' is complete nonsense'.

The external tariff on Britain's imports from outside Europe would disappear. We would gain more from this than we would lose from the imposition of a tariff on British exports to Europe.

The Swiss ignored the encouragement of their Government and voted against joining Europe. They have negotiated for themselves an excellent trade agreement - thereby putting a lie to the utterly false claim that no European country can possibly survive unless it becomes part of the EU.

EU regulations are already regarded as an absolute minefield. Just ask some of the foreign companies who have had eurocrats leaping up and down all over them. Many would jump at the chance to invest in a less regulated part of Europe.

If Britain left the EU it could regain power of its legal system, armed forces, and agriculture. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses would be saved from stifling European bureaucracy.English is the worlds leading business language. English dominates the Internet. Our language means that we can trade with any other country in the world.

We wouldn't necessarily regain power over our armed forces if we where still NATO members , but that is another discussion altogether - we wouldnt deplor our armed forces alone anymore anyway .

What of all the jobs that would vanish from British soil if we did leave the EU then ?

How exactly do we regain control over our legal system ? , and would this really make any real difference . I mean european court of justice decisions benefit us sometimes in that they are applied equally to our trading partners .

 

[Johnuk123]

What of all the jobs that would vanish from British soil if we did leave the EU then ?

What about all the new jobs created when we are able to trade without tariffs with the rest of the world which is a lot bigger than Europe.

A huge proportion of the UK’s exports pass through Antwerp and Rotterdam, and are therefore counted as exports to the EU. The great majority of this trade is actually for other parts of the world so to count it as European trade is false.

 

[radamfi]

When do you think that will happen?

It will clearly be a while, but convergence will happen eventually. The rest the EU opened their labour markets to the 'poor Brits' back in the 70s/80s. It wouldn't be right to say, "Well we've got what we wanted out of the EEC/EU while we were poor and now we are leaving."

 

[muz379]

What about all the new jobs created when we are able to trade without tariffs with the rest of the world which is a lot bigger than Europe.

A huge proportion of the UK’s exports pass through Antwerp and Rotterdam, and are therefore counted as exports to the EU. The great majority of this trade is actually for other parts of the world so to count it as European trade is false.

There are some large manufacturers claiming they would be pulling out though , are we really going to be able to replace them with some domestic products ?

So let me get this right , about 50% of our exports are declared as going to europe . And you are saying that not all of that actually goes to European countries

What happens to the other 50% of our exports ?

 

[Johnuk123]

How exactly do we regain control over our legal system ? , and would this really make any real difference . I mean european court of justice decisions benefit us sometimes in that they are applied equally to our trading partners .

In all our long and distinguished history I doubt if any King or Queen or P.M. has longed for the day they could ask Strasbourg how we should conduct our legal affairs.

Why do people think we're incapable of conducting our own affairs without interference, we managed it before Europe took over and we can again.

 

[mac]

Going back to the first post will the government and eu just announce in a few weeks that by working together Britain will not have to pay any more and this shows how much better things will be if we don't vote UKIP.

 

[muz379]

In all our long and distinguished history I doubt if any King or Queen or P.M. has longed for the day they could ask Strasbourg how we should conduct our legal affairs.

Why do people think we're incapable of conducting our own affairs without interference, we managed it before Europe took over and we can again.

Surely you mean Brussels , what has Strasbourg got to do with any of this ?

 

[Johnuk123]

There are some large manufacturers claiming they would be pulling out though , are we really going to be able to replace them with some domestic products ?

So let me get this right , about 50% of our exports are declared as going to europe . And you are saying that not all of that actually goes to European countries

What happens to the other 50% of our exports ?

Claiming they are pulling out is one thing, these are the same companies who a few years ago were also claiming if we didn't join the Euro they would leave, but they never did. A lot of this talk is simple scaremongering.

As regards trade :
What I'm saying is a lot of the exports going through Europe to the rest of the world are in fact classed as European thereby distorting the figures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely you mean Brussels , what has Strasbourg got to do with any of this ?

I meant in the case of the ECHR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Going back to the first post will the government and eu just announce in a few weeks that by working together Britain will not have to pay any more and this shows how much better things will be if we don't vote UKIP.

That is a possibility.

 

[Emyr]

– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa, prioritising disaster relief and schemes which provide water and inoculation against preventable diseases.

I contest that the foreign aid budget represents good value for money and helps promote British trade interests and helps maintain the viability of certain markets in which British businesses trade.

– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project which is uneconomical and unjustified.

If you want an economical HS2, silence the NIMBYs, The justification for it is capacity, not the headline journey times.

– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.
– UKIP will repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18bn a year.
– There will be no new subsidies for wind farms and solar arrays.
– UKIP will abolish green taxes and charges in order to reduce fuel bills.

UKIP haven't done their homework on the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. They would rather send us all to hell in an inefficient motorised handcart.

– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.

I didn't know what the DCMS does, so I looked it up on Wikipedia...

[DCMS]is responsible for government policy in the following areas:

the

• Arts
• Broadcasting
• Internet and international ICT policy
• Telecommunications and broadband
• Creative industries
  • Advertising
  • Arts market
  • Design
  • Fashion
  • Film
  • Music industry
  • Publishing
• Historic environment
• Architecture and design
• Cultural property and heritage
• Alcohol and entertainment licensing
• Gambling and racing
• Press freedom and regulation
• Libraries
• Museums and galleries
• National Lottery
• Tourism
• Sport
• Olympics

If the DCMS did not exist, we would need to create it or distribute its responsibilities appropriately.

– UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.
– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.
This will reduce the ability of British businesses to efficiently recruit appropriate staff and impact their ability to compete with foreign businesses.

– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.
False economy.

– UKIP will withdraw from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
– We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights. The interests of law-abiding citizens & victims will always take precedence over those of criminals.
This is a bad idea. See this and related posts: http://jackofkent.com/2014/09/about-the-human-rights-act-and-echr/

– UKIP will reverse the government’s opt-in to EU law and justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant and European Investigation Order. We will replace the EAW with appropriate bi-lateral agreements.
This will be laborious and expensive to implement and lead to inconsistencies.

– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.
The Agency Workers Directive protects the positions of non-agency workers by not permitting a cheap alternative.

 

[St Rollox]

What a fantastic thread.

Love it.

Yours

A Scottish YES voter.

 

[muz379]

Claiming they are pulling out is one thing, these are the same companies who a few years ago were also claiming if we didn't join the Euro they would leave, but they never did. A lot of this talk is simple scaremongering.

As regards trade :
What I'm saying is a lot of the exports going through Europe to the rest of the world are in fact classed as European thereby distorting the figures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I meant in the case of the ECHR.

True I know Honda where quiet upset for some time and considered it an error to build their factory in the UK , they soon shut up when the pound regained strength though .
However to not be in the euro and to be completely separated from the EU are entirely different things . And I much think that separating from the EU would do significant damage to the pound .
As the second biggest manufacturer of cars outside of the euro I would be concerned at the threats being levied by these car manufacturers though .Obviously neither of us will really know if they are honest or empty threats . But if they feel compelled to make them they are clearly worried about the scenario and even if they didn't immediately leave the UK on us leaving the EU I think it could fire a starting pistol on an economic chain of events that eventually leads to them leaving .

I understand what you are saying about trade . However what I dont get then is what happens to the other 50% that are not declared as European exports .

Ahh but of course the european court of human rights and the EU are completely separate things (given that the last time someone from UKIP canvased me he didnt even know the difference im tempted to be concerned about their plans for it ). If you wanted to talk about us leaving the European convention on human rights you should have said . However leaving that is another thing that would make this country a laughing stock .And for all the media like to print stories about foreign terrorists being able to stay in this country . The reality is that the day to day business of the court is much more mundane .

Another thing that troubles me is how Farage has managed to build up this image as a man of the people and an ordinary man when if you look at his background he is just as elite as the rest of them . Just because he has been pictured drinking a pint and smoking he has managed to hoodwink loads into thinking he is a normal person just like them .

 

[EM2]

Emyr - Exactly.

And if you restrict free movement from within the EU, you end up with a lot of unpicked vegetables, a lot of unwashed dishes, a lot of unmade coffee, a lot of uncleaned toilets, shops, offices, shopping centres and railway stations, a lot of uncared-for elderly people and all the other jobs unfilled that Brits don't want to do.

 

[muz379]

Emyr - Exactly.

And if you restrict free movement from within the EU, you end up with a lot of unpicked vegetables, a lot of unwashed dishes, a lot of unmade coffee, a lot of uncleaned toilets, shops, offices, shopping centres and railway stations, a lot of uncared-for elderly people and all the other jobs unfilled that Brits don't want to do.

Add to that a lot of unnursed and uncleaned hospitals .

But of course we would have more control over agriculture . So we could decide exactly how many unpicked vegetables we can grow :roll:

 

[Johnuk123]

Who picked the veg before the Poles came ? or did we only start eating broccoli in the last 20 years.

 

[muz379]

Who picked the veg before the Poles came ? or did we only start eating broccoli in the last 20 years.

Have we only had immigration into this country in the past 20 years ?

 

[Johnuk123]

Anybody who thinks we should keep endlessly bailing out European countries who are incapable of managing themselves can vote to stay in Europe if ever a very unlikely referendum is held.
This is why labour detest me because they are flatly refusing a referendum as they aren't very confident of the outcome.
Surely if they were confident that they could put across a convincing argument for Europe they would have one.
If pro Europe was miles in front we would have had one years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have we only had immigration into this country in the past 20 years ?

The vast majority of European immigration has been in the last 20 yrs.

 

[radamfi]

The vast majority of European immigration has been in the last 20 yrs.

But it existed before that, although not on the same scale.

Seen the original "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" series from the 80s?

 

[Greenback]

What a fantastic thread.

Love it.

Yours

A Scottish YES voter.

Although I'm against them in principle, even I sometimes wish we had a like button here!

Add to that a lot of unnursed and uncleaned hospitals .

But of course we would have more control over agriculture . So we could decide exactly how many unpicked vegetables we can grow :roll:

It's certainly much easier for business to fill difficult roles from European applicants without having to get work permits, sponsors or whatever.

 

[muz379]

Anybody who thinks we should keep endlessly bailing out European countries who are incapable of managing themselves can vote to stay in Europe if ever a very unlikely referendum is held.
This is why labour detest me because they are flatly refusing a referendum as they aren't very confident of the outcome.
Surely if they were confident that they could put across a convincing argument for Europe they would have one.
If pro Europe was miles in front we would have had one years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The vast majority of European immigration has been in the last 20 yrs.

We are not part of the eurozone so our part in the eurozone bailout was somewhat limited .

As for labour , I too dont think it is an electable policy to refuse to have a referendum without explaining thoroughly why .If labour explained why we where better off in Europe seriously and then said that is why we dont need a referendum that for me would be a good policy one that might make me think about voting for them .

The Tories at times Detest me because their anti EU stance is only an elitist we think we can make more money for our chums in the city if we are not part of the EU .It dates back to the nationalist views during the height of the British empire . But the world has changed a lot since then .

The vast majority of immigration from europe has been in the last 20 years yes . But this countries history of accepting immigrants from around the world extends far beyond 20 years . What about the Indians , the Caribbean and the Irish immigrants ? Do they all have high paying jobs in the city ?

 

[ExRes]

But it existed before that, although not on the same scale.

Seen the original "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" series from the 80s?

What does Auf Wiedersehen Pet got to do with immigration into this country ?

 

[SS4]

What flummoxes me is the amount of flak Labour get regarding a money tree but UKIP consider our leaving the EU a panacea with no comeback at all.

Don't forget Farage has no problems drawing an MEP's salary and perks and joining up with some shady characters to keep said perks.

I wonder what a Norwegian or Swiss national would make of still having to follow EU rules but not being a member


edit: Make no mistake: A UKIP (or Tory) government will not benefit the common man. It is for the richest to make even more money at the expense of the poor and sick. UKIP have been very quiet on the future of the Working Time Act - something which definitely benefits workers

 

[muz379]

Don't forget Farage has no problems drawing an MEP's salary and perks and joining up with some shady characters to keep said perks.

Farage is just as slimey as any other politician . However people seem to think he is a man of the people .

 

[SS4]

Farage is just as slimey as any other politician . However people seem to think he is a man of the people .

Couldn't agree more. A slick media image certainly helps and has fooled OP into thinking the BBC dislike him

 

[radamfi]

What does Auf Wiedersehen Pet got to do with immigration into this country ?

We are talking about European immigration. That was immigration from the UK to West Germany.

 

[EM2]

What does Auf Wiedersehen Pet got to do with immigration into this country ?

Because the same regulations that would allow those guys to work in Germany, would also allow people to come and work here.

 

[starrymarkb]

What does Auf Wiedersehen Pet got to do with immigration into this country ?

Free Movement of Labour - British builders going to work on a project in Germany