ATW to Rebrand Gerald Premier Service

[headshot119]

LNW-GW Joint - many thanks for fares advice.

It has been mentioned that relatively few people make use of the dining facility. Does anyone know if any effort is made to induce second class passengers to dine on the train? Are they allowed to transfer to the first class dining car or are table cloths put out in second class? Are the menus placed on the tables in second class? Do the menus carry the name of the train?
http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/PremierServiceMenu/

Standard class passengers are made aware of the buffet service by frequent PA announcements. As a standard class passenger I regularly make use of it when I travel on the WAG.

 

[Class 170101]

Realtime trains curently shows the same status for the 17:16 Cardiff to Holyhead for December 16th 2014 as it does for today 22 October 2014 as far as the restaurant service is concerned.

 

[Starmill]

Realtime trains curently shows the same status for the 17:16 Cardiff to Holyhead for December 16th 2014 as it does for today 22 October 2014 as far as the restaurant service is concerned.

They have also got 1ST APs on sale. So First Class accommodation will have to be provided. This can be fulfilled without the restraunt and the chef, but the case of the restaurant service marker in the timetable is interesting...

 

[Starmill]

The suggestion above is that the chef would be withdrawn, and in his place, there would be microwaved alternatives.

I've not seen any mention of the train itself being withdrawn.

I think this rather likely.

 

[merlodlliw]

It should be pointed out that ATW have not published the December 2014 timetables yet, however with Gerald being open access and not a franchise service, no matter what National Rail may publish today, anything can happen tomorrow, if you have booked 1st in December, ATW if removing all first for standard has is occurring on the new Holyhead/Manchester run, will simply offer a refund.
The days of giving away free food are over, the other eight services Cardiff to Holyhead only have a trolley.
ATW have informed the RMT that the catering staff are at risk, ATW don't have to inform anyone except Network Rail & ORR that an open access service is being axed,

 

[Greenback]

Even though ATW don't have to make an announcement about withdrawing the train, I'm sure they will. No company* will want to expose themselves to the hassle of refunding anyone who has booked a ticket, nor to the opposition and criticism that will ensue regarding the lack of a timely announcement. (Except for airlines, who seem to do this regularly)

If NR and ORR are informed, I'd expect the information to be leaked out.

If the loco and coaches is replaced by a 175, then Id expect it to happen at a timetable change and for the fact to be publicised before the booking window opens.

If I'm wrong then ATW are finished as far as I'm concerned!

 

[berneyarms]

Are they not contracted by WAG to provide the loco hauled train until May 2015?

The issue of the onboard chef is I think a separate issue.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I think you are right. There may be a change in stock next May, but I can't see anything happening in December.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, I think you are right. There may be a change in stock next May, but I can't see anything happening in December.

ATW were hoping to stop the train at Ruabon/Chirk and Gobowen next May and cancel the stopper 158 from Wrexham at 0747 to Birmingham,however as this was leaked, all hell as let loose up here, I am in the dark about Gerald as is anyone else outside of ATW land, when the delayed ATW timetable for December is published, we may find out more.
If the WG cutbacks are from next April? it will be May, Another key point is the lease for the rolling stock runs out soon, WG paid £3.5 millions to hire in stock and refurb the six carriages for five years., that is another cost to find, besides the £1.5 million a year to run the train from WG revenue account, it is this account that pays the catering staff wages that is being chopped,

 

[Greenback]

I don't know what will happen in May. If the WG deems that funding the loco and coaches service is not value for money, then the service will be withdrawn, or be replaced with a 175 if stock is available by a bit of rejigging.

If the WG deems that the service, minus the catering is value for money in terms of whatever it's going to pay, then it will stay. Many expected the Fishguard services to go in September but they are still there.

I don't think anyone can argue that the restaurant/buffet is value for money. It's more debatable whether Gerald as a loco hauled premium service is value for money.

We'll just have to wait and see what transpires next year.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't know what will happen in May. If the WG deems that funding the loco and coaches service is not value for money, then the service will be withdrawn, or be replaced with a 175 if stock is available by a bit of rejigging.

If the WG deems that the service, minus the catering is value for money in terms of whatever it's going to pay, then it will stay. Many expected the Fishguard services to go in September but they are still there.

I don't think anyone can argue that the restaurant/buffet is value for money. It's more debatable whether Gerald as a loco hauled premium service is value for money.

We'll just have to wait and see what transpires next year.

I agree we will have to wait and see, however free food with a First Class ticket is long expired, and the lay up of seven hours a day at Canton doing nothing to raise revenue is even more bonkers.
I will be seeing Gerald at Gobowen this evening,ill see how many are in First.

 

[Envoy]

Gerald laid up in Canton for most of the daytime is indeed a waste of resources. Wonder what the loadings are for the daytime boat connection at Fishguard? ATW seem to use 150's for this 'express' service with few stops. Perhaps 'Gerald' could be used on this service as it would have time to go from Cardiff down to Fishguard, meet the boat and get back to Cardiff in order to continue to Holyhead. This would free up a DMU.

 

[Greenback]

The last time I went to Fishguard, on a summer Sunday, the loadings were good on a 4 car train. I suspect they may not be quite as good during the week when Gerald is resting in Cardiff.

 

[Starmill]

I did wonder why they didn't just continue the Gerald service to Swansea and start it back from there, calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot and Neath shouldn't have been too hard. There'd be no need to offer the catering service for this part of the journey and some people might value it as a direct West Wales - North Wales service. It's not like the set is short on time!

 

[berneyarms]

Gerald laid up in Canton for most of the daytime is indeed a waste of resources. Wonder what the loadings are for the daytime boat connection at Fishguard? ATW seem to use 150's for this 'express' service with few stops. Perhaps 'Gerald' could be used on this service as it would have time to go from Cardiff down to Fishguard, meet the boat and get back to Cardiff in order to continue to Holyhead. This would free up a DMU.

The daytime boat train is actually rostered for a class 158.

Your proposal is all well and good, but when would the set get serviced given that maintenance is done in Cardiff?

Yes it could do the run to Fishguard on certain days but the problem is that it overnights every night and weekends in Holyhead.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree we will have to wait and see, however free food with a First Class ticket is long expired, and the lay up of seven hours a day at Canton doing nothing to raise revenue is even more bonkers.
I will be seeing Gerald at Gobowen this evening,ill see how many are in First.

Is free food in first class a "dead" product?

Virgin, East Coast and East Midlands Trains (breakfasts) would tend to disagree with that statement.

 

[headshot119]

The daytime boat train is actually rostered for a class 158.

Your proposal is all well and good, but when would the set get serviced given that maintenance is done in Cardiff?

Yes it could do the run to Fishguard on certain days but the problem is that it overnights every night and weekends in Holyhead.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is free food in first class a "dead" product?

Virgin, East Coast and East Midlands Trains (breakfasts) would tend to disagree with that statement.

The day time boat train, as in the 10:20 10:40 off of Newport via the Swansea District? It's always been a 150 when I've seen it if that's the service you are referring to.

I'm sure when ATW have the second set for the Manchester diagram, that some clever interworking could be done to allow both sets to end up at a maintenance base at suitable intervals (presumably the second set is being maintained at Crewe?) , and make more efficient use of the rolling stock.

 

[berneyarms]

The day time boat train, as in the 10:20 off of Newport via the Swansea District? It's always been a 150 when I've seen it if that's the service you are referring to.

I'm sure when ATW have the second set for the Manchester diagram, that some clever interworking could be done to allow both sets to end up at a maintenance base at suitable intervals (presumably the second set is being maintained at Crewe?) , and make more efficient use of the rolling stock.

The boat train (10:40 ex-Newport) is rostered for a 158. But sets can get switched around if say a 175 fails somewhere.

 

[headshot119]

So what does it do when it gets back to Cardiff Central?

 

[berneyarms]

So what does it do when it gets back to Cardiff Central?

Joins up with another 158 to head to Ebbw Vale Parkway.

 

[Greenback]

It used to go to Cheltenham, at least it did on the one occasion I caught ti from Llanelli!

 

[berneyarms]

It used to go to Cheltenham, at least it did on the one occasion I caught ti from Llanelli!

The Cheltenham service is now a through service from Maesteg.

The 158 starts the day in Carmarthen, then goes to Pembroke Dock, then across to Newport before doing the boat train to Fishguard.

But, as I say, if a 175 needs replacing, then the 158 can be swapped off the boat train.

 

[Greenback]

I know, they are always changing things around!

 

[merlodlliw]

The daytime boat train is actually rostered for a class 158.

Your proposal is all well and good, but when would the set get serviced given that maintenance is done in Cardiff?

Yes it could do the run to Fishguard on certain days but the problem is that it overnights every night and weekends in Holyhead.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is free food in first class a "dead" product?

Virgin, East Coast and East Midlands Trains (breakfasts) would tend to disagree with that statement.

The servicing of Gerald is shorly not required every day,after all it only travels 500 miles or a day, plus there is a spare set of everything at Canton.

The difference with other TOCs you mention is, a lot more passengers travel in First Class, with Gerald it averages two or non on the Cardiff up run.

 

[PHILIPE]

Gerald's locos and Stock are based at Canton, and has already been stated, is required to spend time there for Maintenance or swapping vehicles in and out.
Gerald is a Welsh Government sponsored train, so, therefore it can not work an ATW franchised train so this rules the Fishguards boats out. All this has been discussed at great length on the Forum with reasons etc', before.

 

[berneyarms]

The servicing of Gerald is shorly not required every day,after all it only travels 500 miles or a day, plus there is a spare set of everything at Canton.

The difference with other TOCs you mention is, a lot more passengers travel in First Class, with Gerald it averages two or non on the Cardiff up run.

Leaving aside the issue of what it is permitted to operate, as posted above how would you decide which days it goes to Canton and which days it would stay in service. The problem is that the set is maintained at one end of the country yet spends the weeknights and weekends at the other end of the country. It would have to be serviced at some stage during the week.

Sorry - I misread your earlier post as suggesting that free food in first class in general was dead.

 

[Mark62]

Why don't they follow EC approach to catering in first class and offer an all in one price. I suspect that many travel first class on EC simply because the catering facilities are free and the food is usually a high standard and plentiful(depending on the crew)
I use long distance services a lot. And I discussed with other passengers if the prefer EC or XC and every time people will opt for EC if they can.
EC approach to catering in first class should provide a model for other operators. The travelling chef on AWT can still be utilised using EC model and one just may just find that when word gets around that the first class coaches start to run at a profit.
Clearly passengers are travelling in AWT first class but they aren't using the restaurant service. So rather than simply scrap the service, surely it's time to get creative. That may be beyond AWT.
To illustrate my point, I recently travelled in EMT first class on the London Sheffield service. An elderly couple were sat near me and asked the steward why they had not be given any complimentary food during their journey. The steward replied that they only give soft drinks and coffee, tea etc free of charge. I heard the chap saying to his wife, " this is the last time I travel on these trains."

 

[Greenback]

Why don't they follow EC approach to catering in first class and offer an all in one price. I suspect that many travel first class on EC simply because the catering facilities are free and the food is usually a high standard and plentiful(depending on the crew)
I use long distance services a lot. And I discussed with other passengers if the prefer EC or XC and every time people will opt for EC if they can.
EC approach to catering in first class should provide a model for other operators. The travelling chef on AWT can still be utilised using EC model and one just may just find that when word gets around that the first class coaches start to run at a profit.
Clearly passengers are travelling in AWT first class but they aren't using the restaurant service. So rather than simply scrap the service, surely it's time to get creative. That may be beyond AWT.
To illustrate my point, I recently travelled in EMT first class on the London Sheffield service. An elderly couple were sat near me and asked the steward why they had not be given any complimentary food during their journey. The steward replied that they only give soft drinks and coffee, tea etc free of charge. I heard the chap saying to his wife, " this is the last time I travel on these trains."

There are not the numbers travelling in first class, though. Even if they were, I think it;s doubtful that incorporating the price of food into the ticket prices will make it profitable. We need to be clear, ATW won't pay for it unless it brings in more revenue than it costs. The WG don't want to pay for it either, as their budget is increasingly tight.

If creative means ATW saying let's run a restaurant on two services a day that makes a loss and attracts very few people because there isn't really a large market for it on that route, buy hey, if we increase the prices to offer complimentary food we might get a couple more people in then I'm glad being creative is beyond them!

 

[merlodlliw]

I use long distance services a lot. And I discussed with other passengers if
Clearly passengers are travelling in AWT first class but they aren't using the restaurant service. So rather than simply scrap the service, surely it's time to get creative. That may be beyond AWT. Mark 62

I can assure you, its the low numbers using first on Gerald, not that they don't use the dinner, the dinner and first are all the same mark 3 carriage.
Last evening I saw Gerald go through Gobowen, it only had three people in the first/diner carriage.How many of these were staff? On the morning run, I usually only see the catering staff sat in First, perhaps a couple maximum having breakfast on a few days.
The Minister who was the powerhouse behind Gerald,modeled the idea on Wrexham and Shropshire trains, however this was more a Political stance than how many would actually use the trains first Class facility, no market research was carried out, No politicians in Cardiff bay or any AMs to my knowledge in North Wales have raised any objection to the First Class diner being axed.
If this becomes the only casualty of budget cuts to Rail in Wales, we have not done too badly.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, it was originally a political vanity project in my view. There's no real demand for first or a restaurant facility, and there never has been.

There's no point in trying to tweak the product, it was ill conceived in the first place.

 

[merlodlliw]

Indeed, it was originally a political vanity project in my view. There's no real demand for first or a restaurant facility, and there never has been.

There's no point in trying to tweak the product, it was ill conceived in the first place.

I fully agree, by all means keep the train running, with an amended timetable & cut out the seven hour stopover in Canton.Better the train runs without First Class than loose the service.