Great Carrier Bag Heist

[starrymarkb]

We've had the container deposit for decades too - both the old style voluntary schemes you're talking about (which more resembles a primitive store loyalty discount than a proper litter reduction initiative) and the modern container deposit since 1977.

A modern container deposit scheme does not rely on the customer taking it back to the vendor where they got it, but they can go to any recycling depot with their cans/bottles/cartons. Collecting drink containers for recycling earns the Scouts in SA over $9 million every year, and they are by no means the only community group to benefit from people handing over their empty drink containers.

Is that like the German Pfand system where you pay 25c for each can or plastic bottle, and then get that back when you return it to a recycling point - most supermarkets have a machine that you insert bottles into, the machine scans the barcode, sorts it into the correct bin and either gives cash or a voucher to be redeemed at the till

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eElEpGlSJjk

We should have these in the UK IMO!

 

[CarltonA]

Tesco at Amersham had a "recycling centre" which was shipping container size. A female voice came from inside and told you what to do (recorded I hope). First you swiped your clubcard and then inserted bottles and cans etc. In return you got a few pence worth of points. As I was leaving my car running whilst using it perhaps I was undoing any ecological benefit. Last month I drove into the recycling bay to find the whole thing had gone. Perhaps the experiment was a failure.

 

[AM9]

In Wales, they just don't put the empty bags out on the self-serve tills - you have to ask for them, or buy a "bag for life" - or of course bring your own! and don't leave them in the car like I always seem to do

Sounds like you've cracked it then. JUst need to remember not to leave them in the car.

Seriously though, these sort of changes are quite effective in changing the public's behavior all the better for the environment. Just look how Vacuum Cleaner manufacturers have wheeled out designs in the last few weeks, that are not sold on their macho power consumption but more on their cleaning effectiveness. And that's in less than 3 months from the embargo. Pity those fools who rushed-out and grabbed the last high power cleaners more as a fit of pique.

The Tesco position will probably be challenged some time soon. They simply can't do anything right at the moment.

 

[DownSouth]

Is that like the German Pfand system where you pay 25c for each can or plastic bottle, and then get that back when you return it to a recycling point - most supermarkets have a machine that you insert bottles into, the machine scans the barcode, sorts it into the correct bin and either gives cash or a voucher to be redeemed at the till

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eElEpGlSJjk

We should have these in the UK IMO!

Yes - but without the barcode scanning machines. The collection depots are set up to process large quantities of cans (think trailer loads or full 240 litre bins) which are often already squished, and I can't see a barcode scanner being anywhere near as fast as a human being for sorting large quantities, let alone handling squished cans or cartons! Many collection depots are operated by volunteers from the Scouts, so it would be counter-productive to introduce big machines which would do a worse job.

The 10¢ deposit is included in the sale price - the basic operation of the scheme is shown here.

It does look a bit like a money-go-round, but the vast majority of deposit collections never involve the 10¢ getting back to the consumer - they either get collected by non-profit community groups (think Scouts, Churches, local sporting clubs, Parents and Friends groups at schools), or picked up by homeless people, or sorted out at local council recycling depots when picked up from a kerbside recycling bin. Along with election day barbecues and cake stalls, it's one of the most distinctive characteristics of local charity support in South Australia.

The amount of money involved in the extra handling fees of the scheme works out to about half a cent per container, which is extremely efficient given the benefits involved - a recycled aluminium drink can requires less than 5% of the energy to produce than a brand new one, and so this is recovered through lower manufacturing costs.

The big three drink companies (Coca-Cola Amatil, Pepsi-Schweppes and Lion Nathan) don't like it, and they have been alarmingly successful at getting container deposit legislation in other states derailed despite overwhelming public support based on the SA operation.

 

[table38]

Sounds like you've cracked it then. JUst need to remember not to leave them in the car.

I did mention it a few times at a Tesco in North Wales, and signs did get put up in the car park! I'm not sure I can take all the credit for that, but you never know

Alternatively I have, on occasions, just dumped everything back in the trolley and then bagged it when I got back to the car.

 

[AM9]

Interestingly, this is being pushed through under climate change legislation, so wont even see the house of commons.. Truly, this is democracy at work.

And I must reiterate the points of this being no more then a badly thought out token gesture towards environmentalism, I even wrote to my MP about it, and received a letter from some conservative minister that totally missed all my points and babbled on for half a page about a 'blight on the countryside' and '1000 year degradation times' He did however suggest, that the legislation may exempt easily degradable bags, which, if so, reduces my opposition to this farce of environmentalism slightly, however the fact that this will not be heard in the commons still gets my back up, why have a democracy if we are more than happy to circumvent it when it suits the government, using a link between climate change and carrier bags that is at best tenuous.

I wonder, if I now have to pay for a carrier bag, if it will still have TESCO emblazoned upon it, as if so, I will have to start charging for my services advertising their stores, as I am no longer getting the bags for free.

On the bright side, this is pretty much the only piece of Lib Dem manifesto to actually be enacted by the ConDems...

A single Google search found this as the first item:

https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/reducing-and-managing-waste/supporting-pages/charging-for-single-use-plastic-carrier-bags

The reason for the legislations is given as:

"Discarded plastic bags are a very visible form of littering and can cause injury to marine wildlife. The effect of plastic bags on the environment goes beyond littering. They consume resources, including oil, in their creation. Even when disposed of responsibly, plastic bags can last for long periods of time in landfill sites."

Looks like a pretty good reason the introduce some 'encouragement' to make the public and business behave a bit less selfishly.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Tesco at Amersham had a "recycling centre" which was shipping container size. A female voice came from inside and told you what to do (recorded I hope). First you swiped your clubcard and then inserted bottles and cans etc. In return you got a few pence worth of points. As I was leaving my car running whilst using it perhaps I was undoing any ecological benefit. Last month I drove into the recycling bay to find the whole thing had gone. Perhaps the experiment was a failure.

We had one too, at my local Tesco. It too has recently disappeared. Is it a sinister plot by scouts / local scrap merchants concerned at a reduction in their income? The female voice was from one of those new apprenticeships - everyone's career has to start somewhere, and it's a drier job than rounding up trolleys from the car park!

On the subject of the environmental benefits of the policy, someone remind me just how many MILLION carrier bags I have to use to equal one persons carbon emissions on a flight across the atlantic Any proposal to ban flying out there Mr Cameroon? Mr Millipede? the other unmemorable ones?

 

[AM9]

We had one too, at my local Tesco. It too has recently disappeared. Is it a sinister plot by scouts / local scrap merchants concerned at a reduction in their income?

On the subject of the environmental benefits of the policy, someone remind me just how many MILLION carrier bags I have to use to equal one persons carbon emissions on a flight across the atlantic Any proposal to ban flying out there Mr Cameroon? Mr Millipede? the other unmemorable ones?

Probably not as many as you think with the impact of manufacture/distribution/collection/destruction ignoring the selfishly dumped ones that kill wildlife. It is estimated that eight billio0n bags were distributed by supermarkets in 2012.
I think that eventually, flying long haul will become too expensive for many, just like it was in the early days.

 

[jon0844]

Tesco at Amersham had a "recycling centre" which was shipping container size. A female voice came from inside and told you what to do (recorded I hope). First you swiped your clubcard and then inserted bottles and cans etc. In return you got a few pence worth of points. As I was leaving my car running whilst using it perhaps I was undoing any ecological benefit. Last month I drove into the recycling bay to find the whole thing had gone. Perhaps the experiment was a failure.

The company that provided the equipment went bust. Tesco wants to introduce something else, but the current machines have all gone until then.

Either the equipment was wanted by a leasing company that owned them, or Tesco simply didn't want the equipment on their land if nobody was able to come and empty them.

Now, I don't know why the company involved went bust - so can't comment on whether it was successful or not. I used to recycle quite a lot when they were generous with the clubcard points. Even used to go around looking for plastic to recycle. Then the benefits were reduced, and now I just chuck it all in the recycling bin outside by front door.

Don't earn any money, but nor does it mean me having to bag stuff up and put it in the car (and if I drove ONLY to recycle, that wouldn't be very good for the environment) or wait ages to put the stuff in. I still have memories of them getting clogged up, and the last time I used the machines was over five years ago.

 

[Butts]

Thinking back I'm sure Kwik save used to charge for carrier bags years ago, they used to have free boxes as an alternative.

 

[Johnuk123]

Thinking back I'm sure Kwik save used to charge for carrier bags years ago, they used to have free boxes as an alternative.

I had a relative who used to be on the till at Kwiksave and when she tells people how nothing in the shop was priced up and she had to memorise every single price everybody thinks she's mad.

First thing on a Monday morning all till operators had a trolley load to be tested on, get more than 2 prices wrong and you were off the tills for the day.

I think they did charge for bags.

 

[Butts]

I had a relative who used to be on the till at Kwiksave and when she tells people how nothing in the shop was priced up and she had to memorise every single price everybody thinks she's mad.

First thing on a Monday morning all till operators had a trolley load to be tested on, get more than 2 prices wrong and you were off the tills for the day.

I think they did charge for bags.

That's true about memorising the prices, I once interviewed someone who worked for them (donkeys years ago).

 

[Johnuk123]

That's true about memorising the prices, I once interviewed someone who worked for them (donkeys years ago).

It took a certain type of female to be able to do it, some found it fairly easy others just couldn't do it so didn't get the job.
You imagine telling a till-person nowadays in a similar sized store they had to know the prices in their head.
Can you imagine people now having to work out change without a machine telling them.

 

[Amberley54]

It took a certain type of female to be able to do it, some found it fairly easy others just couldn't do it so didn't get the job.
You imagine telling a till-person nowadays in a similar sized store they had to know the prices in their head.
Can you imagine people now having to work out change without a machine telling them.

I worked for Kwik Save for a couple of months in early 80's as a student. Took about a week to learn prices as smaller range than other supermarkets and a much simpler pricing structure.

Oh yes, I'm a male - is that significant in the context of the above post?

 

[Johnuk123]

I worked for Kwik Save for a couple of months in early 80's as a student. Took about a week to learn prices as smaller range than other supermarkets and a much simpler pricing structure.

Oh yes, I'm a male - is that significant in the context of the above post?

I can't ever remember seeing a bloke on the till at Kwiksave, you must have been quite unique.

Mind you in those days most supermarkets hardly ever had a man on the till.

 

[Butts]

I can't ever remember seeing a bloke on the till at Kwiksave, you must have been quite unique.

Mind you in those days most supermarkets hardly ever had a man on the till.

When I was a student and worked at Tesco's in the late seventies, Men were not allowed on the tills only women fulfilled that role.

 

[krus_aragon]

Just look how Vacuum Cleaner manufacturers have wheeled out designs in the last few weeks, that are not sold on their macho power consumption but more on their cleaning effectiveness. And that's in less than 3 months from the embargo.

Do bear in mind that said legislation was passed some years previously; it's just that the British media didn't start making a fuss until the cut-off date.

 

[Kite159]

Are the shops donating proceeds from the sale of the bags or profits from the sale of bags?

If profits, I can see the 'cost' of a roll of bags increase sharply to reduce profits.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One question is:

Will there be shops that insist on you having a bag (and thus charging you) even if you bring your own bags or are happy to carry the stuff without a bag?

Thus it becomes a compulsory tax / levy / fine rather than something which can be avoided by prior planning.

In the past, perhaps before we became more interested in the environmental aspect, I have been in shops which insisted that I put the stuff I had bought into one of their bags (I guess for security reasons so the guard knew who had paid ?).

Up thread someone gives an example of a greetings card, already in a plastic sleeve, being put into a paper bag. Clearly no bag is necessary.

 

[PeterC]

Thinking back I'm sure Kwik save used to charge for carrier bags years ago, they used to have free boxes as an alternative.

Most tinned, bottled and boxed products that used to be boxed are now shiped shrink wrapped onto cardboard trays.

 

[westcoaster]

We use the scan and shop at our local tesco's, I some how always forget to hand back the unused carrier bags must have about 100 in the kitchen draw. I've noticed some shops now ask if you want a bag like asda and waitrose, and no longer have them out for you to take.

 

[yorksrob]

Most tinned, bottled and boxed products that used to be boxed are now shiped shrink wrapped onto cardboard trays.

This was true of my shelf stacking days nearly 20 years ago.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How bio-degradable is shrink-wrapping?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How bio-degradable is shrink-wrapping?

Plastic bags don't bio-degrade anyway. They degrade, quite quickly, but only into small pieces of plastic which kills wildlife when ingested.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Plastic bags don't bio-degrade anyway. They degrade, quite quickly, but only into small pieces of plastic which kills wildlife when ingested.

Perhaps I did not clearly phrase my question, so I will ask....

"How degradable is the shrink-wrapping that is used around goods delivered in bulk to supermarkets?"

 

[AM9]

Do bear in mind that said legislation was passed some years previously; it's just that the British media didn't start making a fuss until the cut-off date.

By '"wheeled out", I was referring to designs that had obviously been completed well before the cut-off date, but suddenly materialised when the panioc-buying of the old macho designs had exhausted the supply chain.
Manufacturers do the bare minimum allowed by law so they need constant regulation if we are going to get any worthwhile improvements in all products other than cynical style changes.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Perhaps I did not clearly phrase my question, so I will ask....

"How degradable is the shrink-wrapping that is used around goods delivered in bulk to supermarkets?"

No, the question was quite clear, and the inference.

Save the planet by using fewer, and degradable carrier bags, but destroy that benefit by increasing the use of non-degradable plastic elsewhere in the overall supply chain!

Force people to use carrier bags in the first place by removing cardboard boxes from the checkout area as you can now backload the delivery lorries and sell the cardboard for recycling.

Greenwash.

Move to more fuel efficient lorries and shout from the rooftops the carbon reduction achieved, but reduce the number of distribution centres so those lorries travel further, emit more emissions overall, but don't factor that into the equation.

 

[Yew]

The reason for the legislations is given as:

"Discarded plastic bags are a very visible form of littering and can cause injury to marine wildlife. The effect of plastic bags on the environment goes beyond littering. They consume resources, including oil, in their creation. Even when disposed of responsibly, plastic bags can last for long periods of time in landfill sites."

Looks like a pretty good reason the introduce some 'encouragement' to make the public and business behave a bit less selfishly.

It also look like its pretty unrelated to climate change, despite being pushed through the commons without a vote due to the 2008 climate change act, I'm glad you approve of our democracy being undermined, so some toffs don't occasionally have to ask their gardener to remove a plastic bag from the hedge... This really is a tiny gesture, the percentage of our landfill that is formed by plastic supermarket bags is astronomically small. Which, considering the inconvenience I truly do not understand. Surely the government has more important things to do than this, such as setting a realistic energy policy, instead of building windmills. I still dont understand why there isnt an expemtion for paper bags, that would make sense, as they degrade quickly, and are made from a sustainable resource.

I also note the charge is a minimum for single use bags, can I claim my 5p back if I reuse the bag?

 

[Carlisle]

The cost here is in effect a landfill tax. The aim is to make people recycle and compost their refuse and minimise landfill refuse, .

Yes but it not all the general publics fault as all our various tiers of national and local government have been aware of imposing of these taxes for many years and whilst some areas have excelled in moving away from using landfill other areas appear to have made zero progress on that front

 

[AM9]

Yes but it not all the general publics fault as all our various tiers of national and local government have been aware of imposing of these taxes for many years and whilst some areas have excelled in moving away from using landfill other areas appear to have made zero progress on that front

Well maybe the new law should only apply to those who haven't excelled in moving away from landfill. That will be quite easy as lazy areas will just carry on shopping at the same supermarkets and pay their five pence when asked.