SouthWest trains and wrong photocard

[blakey1152]

Hi All,
One of my best friends has contacted me for advice as to what may happen and as I don't know I thought I would ask on the forums for help.

He was travelling from either Aldershot or Woking into London and he was on a Southwest trains service.
The revenue inspectors boarded the train and found that the Travelcard didn't match the accompanying photocard - he had used his partners Travelcard.

The inspectors took the Travelcard and made him pay for a ticket into London - which he did and also took his name and address and other details down but they didn't say what they were going to do.

He is worried about getting a penalty fare - but would this not have been issued at the time? If not what other likely outcomes are there from this incident?

Thankyou
Blakey

 

[yorkie]

That's not something I'd expect to be resolved by the issuing of a Penalty Fare, and the inspectors didn't think so either, so they didn't issue one. Instead, it's likely to result in a Prosecution.

SWT might offer the opportunity of reaching an out of court settlement, and even if they don't offer it, they might accept such an offer made by the passenger. The amount would need be agreed between the parties, and is not possible for anyone on this forum to predict.

For more information regarding relevant legislation and possible penalties see RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal

 

[najaB]

He is worried about getting a penalty fare - but would this not have been issued at the time? If not what other likely outcomes are there from this incident?

Indeed, a PF has to be issued at the time. It can't, TTBOMK, be issued retrospectively. From the fact that they've taken the documents from him, it appears that they are conducting an investigation to see if there's enough to warrant a prosecution. There's three possible outcomes:

1. They are satisfied that it was mistake and take no further action.
2. They determine that there evidence of malfeasance, but the case isn't sufficiently strong to be sure of a conviction so they'll offer a settlement.
3. They decide that the case is sufficiently strong to proceed with a prosecution.

As to your friends next step: SWT will likely write to him in the near future asking for his side of events. At that time it would help his case significantly if he can provide proof that he held an in-date and valid travelcard at the time of the incident.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, a PF has to be issued at the time. It can't, TTBOMK, be issued retrospectively.

Indeed.

And, for the avoidance of doubt as to why a PF is not deemed appropriate, this is what National Express used to say about PFs:

A penalty fare is simply a charge that [the Train Company] is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare
Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who
is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or
attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘Fare dodging’
is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence
and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under
criminal law.

I'm sure SWT say something similar, but I find the wording above is best for dispelling the myth that all that can ever happen is a PF.

 

[455driver]

Did he pick up his partners photo-card instead of his own or was he using her card fraudulently with or without her permission?

 

[najaB]

Did he pick up his partners photo-card instead of his own or was he using her card fraudulently with or without her permission?

That's the *exact* question that SWT are trying to answer. Providing proof of a valid, in-date travel card shows the former, while not being able to prove it shows the latter.

 

[tony6499]

Did he pick up his partners photo-card instead of his own or was he using her card fraudulently with or without her permission?

If he has used someone else's season ticket and it's been confiscated I doubt the owner will get the season ticket back but it's not been made clear in the original post

 

[najaB]

If he has used someone else's season ticket and it's been confiscated I doubt the owner will get the season ticket back but it's not been made clear in the original post

There was a thread a few months back about that exact situation - the conclusion was that if the TOC believed the ticket was being used fraudulently then it could be returned, but only if the owner made a report of theft to the police stating that it was taken without their knowledge. I've no idea what the relationship is like between the OP's friend and their partner, but my guess is that filing a police report would seriously cool things off.

 

[island]

Aside from using a ticket that didn't belong to him, he also appears to have avoided the fare for part of his journey, given that Travelcards are not valid at Aldershot or Woking. Unless "Travelcard" is being used as a sloppy shorthand for "season ticket" that is (or it was an outboundary ticket I suppose).

 

[andrewkeith5]

Aside from using a ticket that didn't belong to him, he also appears to have avoided the fare for part of his journey, given that Travelcards are not valid at Aldershot or Woking. Unless "Travelcard" is being used as a sloppy shorthand for "season ticket" that is (or it was an outboundary ticket I suppose).

Bearing in mind most outboundary season tickets which include a Travelcard season are sold on Travelcard branded stock it's not an unreasonable mistake to call one a Travelcard.

 

[Clip]

Bearing in mind most outboundary season tickets which include a Travelcard season are sold on Travelcard branded stock it's not an unreasonable mistake to call one a Travelcard.

This is true. Most if not all pax who I see at one of my stations who is going to london for the day only ever ask for a Travelcard.

 

[blakey1152]

I am not entirely sure what ticket was held but I believe it may well be a 1-6 Travelcard from an outboundary station.

 

[bb21]

I think we really need to know, as a minimum, whether he has a valid Travelcard season himself (and where from), where he was caught, and what conversation took place at the time, to advise correctly.

 

[blakey1152]

I'll try and find out some more info and post it

 

[VauxhallandI]

There was a thread a few months back about that exact situation - the conclusion was that if the TOC believed the ticket was being used fraudulently then it could be returned, but only if the owner made a report of theft to the police stating that it was taken without their knowledge. I've no idea what the relationship is like between the OP's friend and their partner, but my guess is that filing a police report would seriously cool things off.

I find this a little naughty by the TOC, possibly boxing in an innocent party is not big and clever.

 

[blakey1152]

He doesn't have a Travelcard season himself and was caught at Woking but he did have a valid single from Aldershot to Woking.
He didn't show the inspector that he had a ticket from Aldershot to Woking.

He was made to buy a ticket from Woking to Waterloo and the revenue inspector said he could claim a refund if he could prove that the Travelcard was his - but this was confiscated.

 

[bb21]

Ah, that makes it clearer then.

In that case, I agree with others on the potential for prosecution. In fact, I think the circumstances surrounding this case makes it pretty clear cut for a Section 5 offence. Whether Section 5.3a or 5.3b will be used depends on whether the train company is aware of his possession of the ticket to Woking, but in any case, I believe that intent can be established without too much difficulty.

A Penalty Fare would be the least of his worries. A criminal record is a distinct possibility.

 

[najaB]

I find this a little naughty by the TOC, possibly boxing in an innocent party is not big and clever.

It's not really boxing in an innocent party at all. There's four possibilities:

1. The card was taken without the knowlege of the owner, they don't try to get it back. The owner loses out on the travel card, but they don't dump their partner any deeper in the s**t.
2. The card was taken without the owners knowledge and they claim it back. They value the card more than the relationship.
3. It was taken with the owners knowlege, they don't try to claim it back. They're willing to lose the card to help protect their partner.
4. The card was taken with the owners knowlege, they try to get it back. Not only do they value the card more than the relationship, but they're willing to dump their partner even deeper to save their own skin and money.

Edited to add: Don't forget that tickets and travel cards remain the property of the railway and can be withdrawn if used fraudulently.

 

[Clip]

I find this a little naughty by the TOC, possibly boxing in an innocent party is not big and clever.

Are you condoning fraud then in these circumstances when one parnter uses a card that is not for use by them?

 

[blakey1152]

Thanks for your help everyone.

I have shown my friend the responses and I know that is obviously regretting what happened and we just hope that as its the first time that he has ever been in any sort of trouble at all that SWT will hopefully accept an out of court settlement when he hears back from them.

Blakey

 

[najaB]

... hope that as its the first time that he has ever been in any sort of trouble at all that SWT will hopefully accept an out of court settlement when he hears back from them.

Expect that any settlement amount will be several hundreds of pounds as there appears to be enough evidence to go for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

 

[455driver]

Indeed, this is a simple case of dotting the i and crossing the t for an easy prosecution.
It wouldn't be any easier if it was gift wrapped, your mate had better start saving and thinking up some excuses because this is going to cost lots to keep out of Court if he gets the chance.
Although the out of Court settlement will go to SWT (but the Court imposed fine won't) sometimes they need a couple of good prosecutions to put on the posters at the stations, this would be a good, easy prosecution and that fact alone will count against an offer to settle being made by SWT.

 

[island]

There was a thread a few months back about that exact situation - the conclusion was that if the TOC believed the ticket was being used fraudulently then it could be returned, but only if the owner made a report of theft to the police stating that it was taken without their knowledge. I've no idea what the relationship is like between the OP's friend and their partner, but my guess is that filing a police report would seriously cool things off.

On that thread I pointed out why it is not theft, as theft in the law of England and Wales requires there to be an intent to permanently deprive someone of property.

 

[najaB]

On that thread I pointed out why it is not theft, as theft in the law of England and Wales requires there to be an intent to permanently deprive someone of property.

With respect, I disagree. The conditions of issue of travel cards state that they will be withdrawn if used fraudulently. My reasoning is that by knowingly using a travel card fraudulently, you sent in train a sequence of events that would deprive the owner of its use.

 

[island]

With respect, I disagree. The conditions of issue of travel cards state that they will be withdrawn if used fraudulently. My reasoning is that by knowingly using a travel card fraudulently, you sent in train a sequence of events that would deprive the owner of its use.

Whilst I am loathe to take threads further off-topic, a person's intent when they "borrow" a season ticket from someone else is generally to make one or a small number of journeys without being detected and then return the ticket. Not to get caught and have the ticket withdrawn.

As always, I should suffix this that I post from a non-legally trained background.

 

[Deerfold]

Whilst I am loathe to take threads further off-topic, a person's intent when they "borrow" a season ticket from someone else is generally to make one or a small number of journeys without being detected and then return the ticket. Not to get caught and have the ticket withdrawn.

As always, I should suffix this that I post from a non-legally trained background.

Isn't intent in law based on actions rather than what is in the person's head?

 

[Haywain]

I'm with Island on this. I don't see how it can be suggested, in this scenario, that there is an intention to permanently deprive the season ticket holder of the season ticket. While that might be the end result, these people surely don't have an intention (no matter how it is judged) of getting caught, and that is how the season ticklet holder comes to be permanently deprived of their season ticket.

 

[najaB]

I'm with Island on this. I don't see how it can be suggested, in this scenario, that there is an intention to permanently deprive the season ticket holder of the season ticket. While that might be the end result, these people surely don't have an intention (no matter how it is judged) of getting caught, and that is how the season ticklet holder comes to be permanently deprived of their season ticket.

I had a look for the exact T&C's but couldn't find them, however I'm pretty confident that they'll contain wording to the effect that (1) The travelcard is only to be used by the named owner, with matching photocard; and (2) That the card is the property of the TOC and becomes invalid and will be withdrawn if misused.

By breaking condition (1) above, then condition (2) becomes active.

It is using the card that causes it to become invalid, not getting caught - unless you're of the opinion that fare evasion only becomes an offence when you get caught.

 

[Flamingo]

...unless you're of the opinion that fare evasion only becomes an offence when you get caught.

There is a whole forum based around that theory...

 

[Clip]

I'm with Island on this. I don't see how it can be suggested, in this scenario, that there is an intention to permanently deprive the season ticket holder of the season ticket..

But there is an intention that by using the ticket that is issued to someone else then they have set out to deprive the TOC of the revenue they would otherwise have recieved from the passenger actually paying for their ****ing ticket.


And can I please just ask that everyone will please refrain from trying some legalese unless you are a brief in threads like this. It does not help and can also cause confusion to people who may not post here but browse with their own problems and then screw up in court. Stop it.