Northern introduce pre-Christmas loco hauled services

[Llama]

Will they need them though. With all the draconion ticket restrictions they have implmented?

Yes, especially on Saturday when those who have been priced out of going into Manchester on midweek evenings to visit the markets after work etc all decide to go on a Saturday instead when it will be significantly cheaper.

 

[merlodlliw]

Didn't Arriva Trains Northern and First North Western for a while operate loco hauled trains?

Bringing them back would be a great idea and not just from an enthusiasts point of view.

First ran a loco hauled service Chester to Blackpool via Manchester on the Northwich route a few years ago.

Arriva will commence a Loco Haul service Chester & North Wales to Manchester
via Warrington from December,

 

[Holmbridge]

So what's different about overcrowding at Xmas weekends than overcrowding during peak times for the rest of the year that warrants extra train capacity?

The only one I can think of is travel at Xmas weekends is by choice, during the week it's essential to get to work and is therefore not by choice.

So the deduction is during the week we ( Northern ) don't care as we get the money anyway, at the Xmas weekends we will make more money by encouraging the masses to ditch the car

That sums up all that's wrong with the franchising model

 

[northwichcat]

Yep: First North Western with Fragonset class 31s and mark 2s between Blackpool, Manchester and Chester as mentioned above, and Arriva Trains Northern with class 37s on the Settle and Carlisle, both in around 2004.

The 31 hauled mk2s was to cover for the 2 x 158s that FNW subleased to the new TPE franchise which allowed for Manchester-Hull services to be extended to Bridlington and some strengthened services on other TPE routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will they need them though. With all the draconion ticket restrictions they have implmented?

Considering they don't apply on Saturdays, I think the new ticketing restrictions will mean people who would have done Christmas shopping on weekdays will now do it at the weekend and make Saturday services busier than they've ever been before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what's different about overcrowding at Xmas weekends than overcrowding during peak times for the rest of the year that warrants extra train capacity?

Last year some people had to wait 3 hours before a train arrived that had space for them to be able to board the train. How often does that happen at busy times during the rest of the year?

 

[D6975]

Any chance of class 37s hauling the trains?

Given that they ran crew training specials earlier this year with top and tail 47s, I doubt it, but you never know...

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Would it not make more sense to run these loco hauls on less well used lines and use the freed up units to strengthen these packed services. That would keep the cranks away from the shoppers/whatever.
A lesson not learned from Le Tour?

 

[samj]

Not too sure how they can use them on Manchester-Preston services when the diagrams are Blackpool North-Huddersfield-Wigan-Man Vic circuit, or the Preston-Hazel Grove? Unless they were thinking of Sundays, but I would have thought they have enough stock for strengthening then. Back in 2011, there was 6 car set on a Manchester-Preston service on the first Sunday in December.

 

[D6975]

Not too sure how they can use them on Manchester-Preston services when the diagrams are Blackpool North-Huddersfield-Wigan-Man Vic circuit, or the Preston-Hazel Grove? Unless they were thinking of Sundays, but I would have thought they have enough stock for strengthening then. Back in 2011, there was 6 car set on a Manchester-Preston service on the first Sunday in December.

They are not going to be used on existing services.
The document specifies their use on additional services.

 

[yorkie]

Any chance of class 37s hauling the trains?

Probably not. Demand from enthusiasts would exceed the number of coaches on the train, leaving no room whatsoever for the Christmas shoppers!

 

[47802]

Well If they put 47's on I will not bother anyway, they will have probably failed by the time I get there

What you want is a 68 none this 50 year old rubbish!

 

[yorksrob]

Probably not. Demand from enthusiasts would exceed the number of coaches on the train, leaving no room whatsoever for the Christmas shoppers!

Might it not be a case of drawing enthusiasts off of other trains and creating capacity on those

 

[Topgun333]

Nice little try out for a couple of re-engineered 73s perhaps?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So what's different about overcrowding at Xmas weekends than overcrowding during peak times for the rest of the year that warrants extra train capacity?.....

You've clearly never seen it with your own eyes.

I used to think "it'll be quite busy", then last year I had to work a weekend shift at Victoria, busy doesn't even come close. I have never seen so many people in Manchester....

 

[dfurn]

Trains will be hauled by locomotives.

No signs towards what they'd be but my money is on DRS stuff

If it helps with the guessing game. During the Tour De France Northern hired their loco-hauled train from Leeds to Harrogate from DB Schenker. Locos at both end as well. I suppose I might as well post some photos some of which were previously posted.

 

[sprinterguy]

If it helps with the guessing game. During the Tour De France Northern hired their loco-hauled train from Leeds to Harrogate from DB Schenker. Locos at both end as well.

Though the carriages themselves were hired from Virgin. Direct Rail Services also operated additional trains in the Northern area for the Tour de France, and are more suited to providing “made to measure” train lengths than hiring the full 9-car Pretendolino rake (which does, admittedly, come off lease with Virgin soon).

 

[muz379]

Be nice if this does go ahead I remember seeing the mayhem at victoria and oxford road last year with the Christmas markets alone , and be even nicer if it can be put in place in time for the lights switch on on the 7th November given that tens of thousands attend this and they will all want to get home afterwards .

 

[Baggypants]

Any chance of class 37s hauling the trains?

What about Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley?

Having said that, during one of the Tube Strikes, either this or last year, I noticed a huuuuge amount of heritage busses driving people about. It was like someone at TfL had picked up the phone and called anyone with a bus. "John! you still got that bus? what about Mike? Do you have his number?"

 

[Holmbridge]

You've clearly never seen it with your own eyes.

I used to think "it'll be quite busy", then last year I had to work a weekend shift at Victoria, busy doesn't even come close. I have never seen so many people in Manchester....

Can't have been "fuller" than the 16-57 huddersfield bound two car pacer I had the pleasure of using on Wednesday evening. Made you smile with the despatcher screaming at people to move further into the completely packed aisles. It was empty after Greenfield and we had the full effect on the excellent suspension as we tried to make up time lost by the sheer inability of people to get off at the station stops

 

[muz379]

Can't have been "fuller" than the 16-57 huddersfield bound two car pacer I had the pleasure of using on Wednesday evening. Made you smile with the despatcher screaming at people to move further into the completely packed aisles. It was empty after Greenfield and we had the full effect on the excellent suspension as we tried to make up time lost by the sheer inability of people to get off at the station stops

The trains themselves are as jam packed as usual . The only difference is they are leaving train loads of people behind and people are having to wait hours to get on any train .

 

[Holmbridge]

Ah I get it now. Those left behind this week are different because its not yet the festive season. That's fine then. We as pensioners would not have had a snowball in hell ( keeping up the festive feel) chance of getting on this train at Victoria but we had the experience to travel out to Salford to board there then travel back already seated and smile smugly as we watched the farce enfold at Victoria. The best bit being the optimist trying to board with his bike! Bikes are for riding not travelling companions!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ah I get it now. Those left behind this week are different because its not yet the festive season. That's fine then....

No, you don't get it. The people who would get left behind by the packed 1657 will get the next train. The people who can't get on the Christmas Saturday services out of Manchester have been known to miss TWO OR MORE trains because of the number of people trying to travel.

 

[185143]

I was given duff gen then. I was told they were possibly 68s going to Blackpool.

 

[muz379]

Ah I get it now. Those left behind this week are different because its not yet the festive season. That's fine then. We as pensioners would not have had a snowball in hell ( keeping up the festive feel) chance of getting on this train at Victoria but we had the experience to travel out to Salford to board there then travel back already seated and smile smugly as we watched the farce enfold at Victoria. The best bit being the optimist trying to board with his bike! Bikes are for riding not travelling companions!

No the difference is the numbers left behind . Having worked that and many other trains out of vic at that time a few times I know that people are not regularly left behind . In fact I cant think of a time that train itself has left people behind .

But if you would care to come down to Victoria on the 7th of November when the lights are switched on after the event . Or any other Friday evening or Saturday in the run up to Christmas you will see people left behind . Not just by one train but by two or maybe even threetrains .

It was just like last Saturday an extra train was run from Ox road because of the rugby . This is not because rugby fans are more important than commuters . But because the alternative was that people might not be able to fit onto a train for hours . Something that does not regularly happen on a normal weekday rush hour .

 

[Holmbridge]

I am not in any way suggesting they should not run the extra trains, in fact I am all for it. Rugby games like last week should have ticketed only specials. (not sure how one extra short train coped with the mega thousands but that's by the way, a worthy effort anyway but must try harder). The remit of a train operating company must surely be to provide an " acceptable level of service to meet the customer demand". So run some dedicated charter specials to the Xmas markets....better still ban Xmas altogether.

The point trying to be made is that we are constantly given the mantra by the TOCS ( this is not just having a go at Northern) that they can't find extra carriages to solve regular known overcrowding but they can find them at Christmas ( Santa must hide them in his workshop for the rest of the year!) for shoppers specials. They also find the crew to run them which is good. No excuses about lack of trained staff to run them then.

Whether you leave 1 or 1001 on the platform is irrelevant if you are that one that has to wait for the next train, as you are not given any "special right" to priority board the next one given that that might also be full.

Old persons, young mothers or infirm people simply can't cope with the pushing and shoving to board.

Solutions:

( Please don't reply with reason why these wont work, it is meant to be light hearted banter to lighten a dull Sunday morning up)


1. Maybe a formal queuing system should be used to ensure first come first served. Doesn't solve the problem but makes it fairer. The practicalities need some working on to achieve this on mainline stations as queues will be to the next station so you might as well walk it home anyway

2. Have some carriages "standing only".... .for most peak commutes that's what people are having to do anyway..rip the seats out and provide safe facilities for standing. ( Makes more room those with bikes as travelling companions as well.) Off peak tickets valid to stand in peak hours to compensate for the inconvenience. Has merits as trains apparently run empty during the rest of the day anyway so the lack of seats isn't an issue

3. Run more/longer trains. Now that's simply being silly.

It would mean train companies having to procure rolling stock for heavens sake.

Stations that were once 6 long platforms will have to be reinstated from the two current short platforms at great expense

Trains would have to stand idle for part of the day at great expense (as they do in London...how do they cope?)

Sidings that are now hidden in wildlife refuges (but still signalled and maintained) will have to be cleared of buddliea. Could open a garden centre to offset the cost?

Stations would have to be staffed to cope with the extra demand providing a proper service would generate. This will never work, like being back in BR days

4. Put the off peak prices up......done that doesn't work

5. Franchising....that's the answer....whoops tried that also and it doesn't work.

6. Stop passengers thinking they have a right to travel "on demand". All train travel to be booked in advance, dedicated seat allocated, when all seats gone declare train full and no more tickets sold for that service..a bit like advance purchase tickets now but all trains 100% pre booked. Yes revenue will fall but it will focus the mind on getting longer trains in service sharply! The end of rovers and rangers I am sorry to say.

7. Build more roads using old and existing track beds, knock down city centre stations and turn them into cheap car parks.

I knew if I tried long enough I would find the answer!

Enjoy your day....last day to use those £10 ranger tickets on Northern....do trains still run on Sundays???

 

[yorkie]

You admit that none of those 7 ideas are workable (apart from longer trains - which is actually happening, as discussed in other threads), and it's pretty obvious why they aren't. So can we get back on-topic then?

 

[muz379]

The point trying to be made is that we are constantly given the mantra by the TOCS ( this is not just having a go at Northern) that they can't find extra carriages to solve regular known overcrowding but they can find them at Christmas ( Santa must hide them in his workshop for the rest of the year!) for shoppers specials. They also find the crew to run them which is good. No excuses about lack of trained staff to run them then.

Whether you leave 1 or 1001 on the platform is irrelevant if you are that one that has to wait for the next train, as you are not given any "special right" to priority board the next one given that that might also be full.

Old persons, young mothers or infirm people simply can't cope with the pushing and shoving to board.

Whilst there is regular known overcrowding there is not regular known 3 hour queues to get onto any train . If there was something would be done about this .

Yeah you could spend all of this money lengthening platforms , procuring longer trains - which BTW is not in the remit of the train companies themselves . But as you will have seen from that overcrowded train you where on it was only overcrowded until greenfield .

But how often is it the case that someone on a regular peak time commute will be unable to board a train but then also be unable to board the next one and be waiting for hours ?Ive never known of it happen personally

 

[northwichcat]

So run some dedicated charter specials to the Xmas markets....better still ban Xmas altogether.

I'm not sure that'll work. A charter train works for a day trip that wouldn't normally be possible by a direct train, if there is a regular service why would people buy tickets for the charter instead? Maybe they would if you offer a hefty discount for using the charter instead of the normal services?

 

[Holmbridge]

You admit that none of those 7 ideas are workable (apart from longer trains - which is actually happening, as discussed in other threads), and it's pretty obvious why they aren't. So can we get back on-topic then?

If you are unhappy about the content of the thread you can wait for the next one in an hour maybe?

Glad you agree franchising is unworkable though. Not many of us non believers dare "come out" for fear of persecution by the believing masses.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

( Please don't reply with reason why these wont work, it is meant to be light hearted banter to lighten a dull Sunday morning up)

[youtube]KBWuDhIv9B0[/youtube]

 

[CockneySparrow]

What does loco hauled deployment mean to me, the common man ?

Back to the days of slam door carriages with an engine on the front, possibly on the back as well nowadays