New Piccadilly stock: visuals and interview

[Chris125]

But the other lines already have drivers. Unless they all retire or are made redundant to make room for those moving across.

I'd imagine in the preceding years those drivers wishing to change lines to continue in a conventional driving role will be accommodated the same way they are now, taking up positions made available by the constant churn of existing drivers leaving and retiring or extra positions being created. There's unlikely to be a mass exodus due to the inconvenience of changing.

I imagine because the Central already runs under ATO, there's not so much room for improvement - with the Piccadilly running a large route and number of trains under old signalling, huge improvements possible I suspect. The Waterloo & City is fairly easy to figure out, I don't imagine they'll convert it to ATO but simply having larger trains I think would work - pretty sure there's room for a bit more at either end isn't there?
Bakerloo I'm not sure why it's so low really, that one doesn't make so much sense to me.

Presumably it's because the Bakerloo, in it's current form, could neither operate nor justify a major increase in frequency.

Chris

 

[rebmcr]

The LED light strips on the front end are not likely to be compliant with the new Euro lighting regulations, which may affect their ability to be built this way and comply with existing safety standards and easements thereof.

Why the long wait for these new trains?

I guess that may be a financial matter?

2020 is quite a long way from now, I would have expected something to start operating in the next two or three years, if they are serious about doing this.

Signalling upgrade has to be done on the Piccadilly line first, which has been pushed back due to delays on resignalling the Subsurface Lines because of a vendor change.

 

[samuelmorris]

Economic justification I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can recall the Bakerloo isn't as busy as the other lines, so presumably less needs a capacity upgrade. All that said, they will potentially need to revise that if the recent plan to extend the line goes ahead!

 

[MK Tom]

Dumb question but if the tender hasn't been awarded yet how can we know what they'll look like? I would've thought each bidder would submit a different looking design.

 

[Kristofferson]

Train design seems to be taking after web design - a marketing department showing everyone a design before they've spoken to the people who actually build the thing.

 

[Goldfish62]

The front reminds me of a rounded version of the Berlin U-bahn stock, the H stock I believe it is?

Yes! I really like the H stock in looks and to travel on.

http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/Deuts...en~U-Bahn+Berlin/41908/h-zug-grossprofil.html
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Seems odd to have a design company come up with the design before any involvement from whichever company will actually build the things - sounds worryingly like the Boris Bus where Wrights had to make the best they could of an existing design.

The Boris Bus was designed by Heatherwick Studios, who had never designed any transport before. Wrights had to build it to this design. IMO it's hideous, but I really like the ridiculously-named New Tube for London.

I hope the real things have a proper designation, such 22TS.
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Train design seems to be taking after web design - a marketing department showing everyone a design before they've spoken to the people who actually build the thing.

Basically, TfL have provided a remit to PriestmanGoode, who have obviously come up with a design that TfL likes. Bidders will have to price against that design. If they don't want to build it then they won't have to bid! Simples!!

The Networkers were designed by BR with input from a design studio and built by BREL and GEC, so not much different really.

 

[bravot]

Priestmangoode are well experienced in designing for transport, eg the Virgin Pendolinos.

 

[Clip]

Boris has done well here - spent the money on design and promotion - his incumbent will not want to be seen to spend money on a new design.

 

[ainsworth74]

Priestmangoode are well experienced in designing for transport, eg the Virgin Pendolinos.

Though I'm not sure that's a ringing endorsement because unless they were just sticking to the brief they were given they came up with one of the worst interiors I'm aware of. At least in terms of utilising the space available anyway!

In any case the new design looks pretty good and count me as a fan of walk through trains.

 

[Muzer]

Wait.


Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait.

Wait.



What?



Why are the poles BROWN?????

 

[Giugiaro]

If the idea is to make a DLR type of driverless train with manual console, then I expect the stations, before any train runs driverless, to have all the platforms modernized and protected by panels similar to those on the Jubilee line extension to avoid situations like this:

Why are the poles BROWN?????

The dark purple poles and colour scheme is said to be based on London's History. I completely dunno what that means since I'm not a Londoner, but someone could explain that eventualy.

Anyway, the seats look really neat. They seem like a future rendition of the calssic moquette, don't they?

 

[Muzer]

Ugh. I much prefer the pole colour == line colour scheme

Though it must be said I do like brown poles - that might be why I like the Bakerloo line...

And yeah, I'm pretty much happy with the rest of the design. Just a shame the poles aren't blue.

 

[Giugiaro]

For me, poles are yellow.

I'm used to them in yellow over my place. It's a rule that "where's yellow is where you should securely grab".

 

[tranzitjim]

Economic justification I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can recall the Bakerloo isn't as busy as the other lines, so presumably less needs a capacity upgrade. All that said, they will potentially need to revise that if the recent plan to extend the line goes ahead!

How busy is the Bakerloo when compared to the Metropolitan line?

 

[samuelmorris]

If the idea is to make a DLR type of driverless train with manual console, then I expect the stations, before any train runs driverless, to have all the platforms modernized and protected by panels similar to those on the Jubilee line extension to avoid situations like this

I doubt that - retrofitting plaform edge doors to the curved stations is going to be a difficult/expensive process that I'm pretty sure has already been ruled out before. Admittedly it has straight sections but the DLR makes do with no drivers an no platform edge doors, even in underground stations. I'm sure NTfL lines will be the same eventually, unions permitting!

Tranzitjim: A valid point raised, 111 million journeys annually vs. 68 million on the Met - that said, the 'central london' section of the Met is not covered by all services (i.e. some start at Baker Street) and is shared by two other lines picking up the load. The central london section of the Bakerloo is of course fairly unique unless travelling from Baker Street or Charing Cross/Embankment to Waterloo. Not sure how much of a difference that makes.

 

[tranzitjim]

How does the Jubilee line demand compare with Metropolitan and Bakerloo lines?

The Metropolitan line, I mean out from Baker Street only.

Sorry, I got Bakerloo line mixed up with the Jubilee line.

Would there be some way you could run a few Bakerloo services out to say Uxbridge and/or Watford? That way releave the Metropolitan line a little bit, and give Bakerloo line a bit more demand.

You already have a deep tube platform at Uxbridge, and the Bakerloo train could run mostly express anyway, so you would not have any problem with mixed platform heights.

 

[Chris125]

I doubt that - retrofitting plaform edge doors to the curved stations is going to be a difficult/expensive process that I'm pretty sure has already been ruled out before.

Going by what's been posted on London Reconnection they'll be fitted to most platforms, curved ones benefiting from gap fillers and the shorter vehicles used by the NTfL.

Chris

 

[dosxuk]

For me, poles are yellow.

I'm used to them in yellow over my place. It's a rule that "where's yellow is where you should securely grab".

You get them in almost every colour under the rainbow in the UK. The rules just say they need to be a contrasting colour so that visually impaired people can identify them.

 

[Giugiaro]

I doubt that - retrofitting plaform edge doors to the curved stations is going to be a difficult/expensive process that I'm pretty sure has already been ruled out before.

Putz! I forgot about the video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZnWtYau54g

 

[Techniquest]

I thought, until I read this thread, that the new trains order had gone out, and this is definitely what we were getting.

So we're getting this design on the Piccadilly, Central, Waterloo and City and the Bakerloo lines? I was of the impression the Northern line was changing too, but I had thought that seemed ridiculous since that and the Jubilee run 96 stock.

It looks an interesting design, we've got a long time to go yet until we actually see one in use then by the looks of it. I also agree with the gentleman who said we should have modernised stations by then too, some stations are in need of being done up now it must be said.

I will miss the 72 stock on the Bakerloo when it goes though

 

[MCR247]

I was of the impression the Northern line was changing too, but I had thought that seemed ridiculous since that and the Jubilee run 96 stock.
(

It is expected (can't remember if confirmed & ordered or not) that Alstom are going to build some 95/96 style stock for the extra capacity on the Northern and Jubilee lines

 

[Techniquest]

It is expected (can't remember if confirmed & ordered or not) that Alstom are going to build some 95/96 style stock for the extra capacity on the Northern and Jubilee lines

Ah right, cheers for the gen there

 

[rebmcr]

No details have been announced, but it's possible that the Jubilee and Northern lines may swap their stock to make the numbers work.

95TS has a newer (at the time 'innovative') traction package than the 96TS's older hardware (at the time 'proven'), so they're not compatible.

 

[subria]

No details have been announced, but it's possible that the Jubilee and Northern lines may swap their stock to make the numbers work.

Wouldn't that be more bother than it's worth?

96TS are 7 car (with the 7th non motored trailer inserted in the middle after the Extension project), and 95TS are 6 car.

 

[tranzitjim]

We are to replace Central line trains of which are 1992 stock.

The other two lines have 1995 and 1996 stock, of which are not that much more modern.

But then, by the time we reach 2025, when I presume a great deal of the new stock would be on the four lines, It may then become time to replace the 1995 and 1996 stock anyway.

So, could the 2020 stock end up replacing all deep-tube lines by then anyway?

 

[rebmcr]

We are to replace Central line trains of which are 1992 stock.

The other two lines have 1995 and 1996 stock, of which are not that much more modern.

But then, by the time we reach 2025, when I presume a great deal of the new stock would be on the four lines, It may then become time to replace the 1995 and 1996 stock anyway.

So, could the 2020 stock end up replacing all deep-tube lines by then anyway?

92TS has old-style DC motors which have proven quite troublesome.

95TS has modern AC motors driven by a modern IGBT, and 96TS has AC motors driven by a previous-generation GTO.

92TS is going to be retired well before its lifespan is over, the 95TS & 96TS has a loong way to go yet.

 

[dosxuk]

We are to replace Central line trains of which are 1992 stock.

The other two lines have 1995 and 1996 stock, of which are not that much more modern.

But then, by the time we reach 2025, when I presume a great deal of the new stock would be on the four lines, It may then become time to replace the 1995 and 1996 stock anyway.

So, could the 2020 stock end up replacing all deep-tube lines by then anyway?

It's 2032 that they plan to complete the roll out on the Central Line. By then technology advances will probably mean we're ready for a New New Tube for London.

The 92TS is also just an update of the 86TS, meaning it's design is much older than it's name suggests.

 

[Nym]

92TS has old-style DC motors which have proven quite troublesome.

95TS has modern AC motors driven by a modern IGBT, and 96TS has AC motors driven by a previous-generation GTO.

92TS is going to be retired well before its lifespan is over, the 95TS & 96TS has a loong way to go yet.

The 92TS was life expired when it was built... Thanks Derby

 

[Techniquest]

I never knew the 92TS was an updated version of the 86TS,nor that it was a troublesome fleet. That said my knowledge of the Tube and its fleets is minimal!

 

[samuelmorris]

Looking at the 86TS (even the version they actually chose) and the 92TS, if I'm honest it seems like they made quite a lot of changes. I agree though, the 92TS has proven far more of a liability in service than the 95/96 have, what with the Chancery Lane incident plus the fact that people seem concerned about the lifespan of the DC traction motors, and the apparently excessive cost it would involve to replace and rewire with an AC traction package. Seemingly when they reworked the 465s, already having AC traction motors made things far easier. The doors on the 92TS don't seem especially robust either, seemingly suffering 'door open' scenarios more often than other stock, but I'm not sure how much of a dent on punctuality that actually has.

Given the fact that the 95TS is just now receiving a fairly substantial internal refresh, I imagine they're committing to using the stock for a fair while, and why not? I'm curious if the slightly older 96TS (yes it is that way round!) will receive the same treatment as in some of the units the interior is starting to look a bit dog-eared.