New Piccadilly stock: visuals and interview

[jamesontheroad]

See here for the first renderings of the design for the new Piccadilly Line stock.

Currently designed for either traditional or driverless control.

http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/09/priestmangoode-driverless-tube-trains-london-underground/

 

[Feathers44]

Looks OK to me but then my tube travel is 'infrequent leisure use' only so I tend to enjoy whatever turns up at the platform.

I see the 'all through' design is pretty much a requirement for TfL services these days.

 

[LLivery]

The designs look very nice but I'm not so happy about no doors between carriages. By all means have interconnecting cars but I would rather a door like on other rail services.

 

[tranzitjim]

So these are definately going to go onto the Piccadilly line directly?

I guess these same ones would also end up on the Bakerloo line too?

 

[C2L]

So these are definately going to go onto the Piccadilly line directly?

I guess these same ones would also end up on the Bakerloo line too?

When the new trains first enter service they will have an operator on board. Along with modernised signal systems operating alongside them, the trains will enable faster, more frequent and reliable services with fewer delays, as well as providing greater capacity on all four lines:

• The Central line by 25 per cent (the equivalent of up to 12,000 customers per hour);
• The Bakerloo line by 25 per cent (the equivalent of up to 8,000 customers per hour);
• The Waterloo & City line by 50 per cent (the equivalent of up to 9,000 customers per hour);and,
• The Piccadilly line by 60 per cent (the equivalent of up to 19,000 customers per hour).

Source:- https://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/med...r/design-for-the-new-tube-for-london-revealed

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thank goodness they've made the front end look good; I was worried that they'd go for the Siemens toilet roll on wheels design...

 

[infobleep]

If drivers are not to lose there jobs, will they become staff who walk through the train, similar to a guard. If so might any guards lose their jobs instead? Or will they wait until each driver retires or decides to get another job before making a particular former driver diagram driverless?

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29520761

London Underground: Designs for Tube trains unveiled

57 minutes ago

*From the sectionLondon

The trains will be installed on the Piccadilly, Central, Waterloo & City and Bakerloo lines

Designs for 250 London Underground (LU) trains have been unveiled as part of an upgrade which could cost up to £2.5bn.

The trains will be installed on the Piccadilly, Central, Waterloo & City and Bakerloo lines from the mid-2020s.

They will have walk-through carriages similar to the new Metropolitan, District and Circle line trains.

However, the RMT union said it was "deeply concerned" the trains will have the capacity to be driverless. LU said they would initially be operated.

The New Tube for London has been designed by consultancy PriestmanGoodeThe trains will have wider doors and eradicate the "gap" between platform and carriage at some stations

General secretary of the union, Mick Cash, said: "RMT has made it clear repeatedly that any moves towards the lethal and cash driven nonsense of removing drivers on London Underground would be resisted through the most robust industrial and political campaign of opposition."

A spokesman for Transport for London (TfL) said no driver would lose their job, adding that if a decision was made to go driverless, it would be phased in.

Finn Brennan from Aslef, the train drivers' union, said they would always oppose automated trains because the single-track, Victorian infrastructure was designed to be negotiated by drivers.

Currently, the Docklands Light Railway service operates driverless trains but its infrastructure only dates back to the 1980s.

'Improved' capacity

For the first time on deep-level sections of the Tube, the trains will have a mechanised air-cooling system built in.

They will also have improved accessibility, with step-free access from the platform and more space for wheelchair users.

London Underground said the trains would improve capacity by:

The Central line by 25% (the equivalent of up to 12,000 customers per hour)The Bakerloo line by 25% (the equivalent of up to 8,000 customers per hour)The Waterloo & City line by 50% (the equivalent of up to 9,000 customers per hour)The Piccadilly line by 60% (the equivalent of up to 19,000 customers per hour)

It is hoped that the trains will remain in service for more than 40 years.

The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said: "From Greenford to Gants Hill, from Alperton to Arnos Grove, they will ferry millions of people across our city, more comfortably, reliably and stylishly than ever before."

The trains will have walk-through carriagesThe colour palette of charcoal, grey and oxblood has been "inspired by the heritage of London"

Mike Brown, the managing director of London Underground, said the trains would help them keep pace with the city's growing population.

The designs have been unveiled as the RMT and TfL continue negotiations to avert a*48-hour strike by Underground employees. Tube workers plan to strike next week as part of a long-running dispute over staff cuts.

The images of the trains, which were designed by PriestmanGoode, will be on show at King's Cross St Pancras station until 16 November.

A formal invitation to tender is expected to be issued early next year and a contract to build the new trains to be awarded in 2016.

The first train is expected to come into service on the Piccadilly Line in 2022.

 

[Chris125]

If drivers are not to lose there jobs, will they become staff who walk through the train, similar to a guard. If so might any guards lose their jobs instead? Or will they wait until each driver retires or decides to get another job before making a particular former driver diagram driverless?

I believe the idea is that drivers could be moved to other lines if they don't want to continue as DLR-style operators on their existing line - it seems the SSR will retain them for at least the life of the S Stock, and modernisation of the entire Deep Tube network will take many years to achieve.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

The designs look very nice but I'm not so happy about no doors between carriages. By all means have interconnecting cars but I would rather a door like on other rail services.

New stock such as Thameslink and Crossrail, and SWT's new inner suburban stock will not have doors between cars, and you must be aware that LO 378s and the S stock fleet do not have them either.

Its the way new metro and underground trains will all be in due course.

 

[Kristofferson]

So who's going to build them - Siemens, Bombardier or someone else?

Personally I'd prefer someone other than Bombardier... the last deep tube stock they built was the 2009 Stock, which continues to be a bit of a disaster with its "intelligent" doors. "Will the doors open at the station? Will the train stop in the tunnel because it thinks the doors are open? Who knows!"

The S Stock is alright though.

 

[MCR247]

The front reminds me of a rounded version of the Berlin U-bahn stock, the H stock I believe it is?

 

[telstarbox]

The designs look very nice but I'm not so happy about no doors between carriages. By all means have interconnecting cars but I would rather a door like on other rail services.

Having the through layout makes a big difference when the train is crowded as people can spread out or squeeze in more easily.

 

[Strathclyder]

The front reminds me of a rounded version of the Berlin U-bahn stock, the H stock I believe it is?

They do have similar front-ends.

U-Bahn H-stock:

New Tube for London:

I like it, I have to say. Miles better than the previous 'Evo' concept. That looked more like a tape-worm than anything else.

 

[Bald Rick]

If drivers are not to lose there jobs, will they become staff who walk through the train, similar to a guard. If so might any guards lose their jobs instead? Or will they wait until each driver retires or decides to get another job before making a particular former driver diagram driverless?

Guards? On the Underground?

 

[physics34]

They do have similar front-ends.

U-Bahn H-stock:

New Tube for London:

I like it, I have to say. Miles better than the previous 'Evo' concept. That looked more like a tape-worm than anything else.

agree, think they look good!

 

[infobleep]

I believe the idea is that drivers could be moved to other lines if they don't want to continue as DLR-style operators on their existing line - it seems the SSR will retain them for at least the life of the S Stock, and modernisation of the entire Deep Tube network will take many years to achieve.

Chris

But the other lines already have drivers. Unless they all retire or are made redundant to make room for those moving across.

 

[infobleep]

Guards? On the Underground?

Your right. They don't have them. It was the driver who walked through the train when I was over carried, not a guard.

 

[samuelmorris]

They used to though, I believe. Eventually they moved with the times. The same can happen again. Personally I think the only obstacle that stands in the way of driverless trains is tightly curved stations like Bank Central and Waterloo Bakerloo - apart from that, the infrastructure to do it is proven, the technology itself is proven, it's just a case of getting the pesky unions out of the way, IMO. I'm sure that's seen as a controversial statement, but really I find this whole 'it's not safe to run driverless trains until at least the 2030s' complete nonsense, unless I'm missing something!

I will be very disappointed if the groundwork required to make the NTfL units driverless is omitted from the final product.

 

[Kristofferson]

So has anyone been down to the exhibition at KGX?

Will pop down tomorrow if there's anything worth seeing like a scale model?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

When the new trains first enter service they will have an operator on board. Along with modernised signal systems operating alongside them, the trains will enable faster, more frequent and reliable services with fewer delays, as well as providing greater capacity on all four lines:

The Central line by 25 per cent (the equivalent of up to 12,000 customers per hour);
The Bakerloo line by 25 per cent (the equivalent of up to 8,000 customers per hour);
The Waterloo & City line by 50 per cent (the equivalent of up to 9,000 customers per hour);and,
The Piccadilly line by 60 per cent (the equivalent of up to 19,000 customers per hour).

Source:- https://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/med...r/design-for-the-new-tube-for-london-revealed

Does anyone know why the expected relative capacity increase on the Piccadilly and Waterloo and City is so much greater than on the Bakerloo and Central?

 

[Clip]

The designs look very nice but I'm not so happy about no doors between carriages. By all means have interconnecting cars but I would rather a door like on other rail services.

Whats so Improtant about a door joining the carriages?

 

[fgwrich]

Cant say I like the windows at all - Why are we going backwards in window design when the Central Lines 1992 Stock has a single large window between the doors - Preistman Good seem to have an annoying habit of trying to 'retro-ise' things and using Bombardier Style chunky windows akin to a modern version of the 1938 stock seems rather pointless to me. The 2009 Stock is slightly annoying in this respect too given that it's the same bodyshell as the '92s albeit updated but with a smaller height window (ok for the Vic line as it's completely in tunnel).

I can also think how fun those flexible corridors will be on the Bakerloo Line - It's not the straightest of lines with some reverse curves and some sharp ones as it is - Piccadilly Circus / Oxford Circus and Paddington all spring to mind!

The front LED Lights are also rather reminiscent of the Porsche Designed Siemens MX3000 as used on the Oslo Metro (I'd love to have some of those over here!).

 

[bnm]

The front LED Lights are also rather reminiscent of the Porsche Designed Siemens MX3000 as used on the Oslo Metro (I'd love to have some of those over here!).

That's Porsche designed is it? I know its the gradient but being Porsche you can understand why the rear is sitting down so much. That's where they like to put their engines!

 

[Deerfold]

Seems odd to have a design company come up with the design before any involvement from whichever company will actually build the things - sounds worryingly like the Boris Bus where Wrights had to make the best they could of an existing design.

 

[tranzitjim]

Why the long wait for these new trains?

I guess that may be a financial matter?

2020 is quite a long way from now, I would have expected something to start operating in the next two or three years, if they are serious about doing this.

 

[dcd]

Video can be found at
http://londonist.com/2014/10/new-tube-designs-unveiled.php

 

[samuelmorris]

Does anyone know why the expected relative capacity increase on the Piccadilly and Waterloo and City is so much greater than on the Bakerloo and Central?

I imagine because the Central already runs under ATO, there's not so much room for improvement - with the Piccadilly running a large route and number of trains under old signalling, huge improvements possible I suspect. The Waterloo & City is fairly easy to figure out, I don't imagine they'll convert it to ATO but simply having larger trains I think would work - pretty sure there's room for a bit more at either end isn't there?
Bakerloo I'm not sure why it's so low really, that one doesn't make so much sense to me.

 

[MK Tom]

Sorry, but who's building these?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

We don't know yet - the tender hasn't gone out...

 

[samuelmorris]

Tender to be awarded in 2016 I believe.