Broken Signal Procedure

[payne747]

Hi all,

New here so apologies if this has already been addressed but I was curious about the following procedure if there are any drivers who can help...

I currently live opposite a railway and have noticed the signal only displaying danger aspect all evening, I'm pretty sure it's broke as each train slowly approaches, waits anywhere from 3 - 6 minutes, some might then sound the horn and then all slowly proceed through the red light.

What's the procedure the drivers are following here, and what might cause this problem for a signal (there is a thunderstorm going on if that helps :P)

 

[455driver]

Probably a track circuit fault preventing the signal being cleared.

The procedure is to stop, contact the signaller, get permission to proceed, sound horn and off you go at caution.

 

[jon91]

It sounds to me like they're contacting the signaller and getting his/her permission to pass that signal at danger.

(edit) 455driver beat me to it. *shakes fist*

 

[455driver]

(edit) 455driver beat me to it. *shakes fist*

tee hee hee!

 

[easydriving]

Now there is no need to sound the horn

 

[payne747]

I thought it was along those lines, thanks! Though only the Southern drivers seem to be doing the horn, SWT guys aint

I'm curious what the signallers procedure is now, this is on the line just out of Portsmouth, any signallers care to weigh in?

 

[455driver]

I'm curious what the signallers procedure is now, this is on the line just out of Portsmouth, any signallers care to weigh in?

Due to a track circuit problem ahead I am unable to clear the signal, I am authorising you to pass Hotel Tango 2 7 (HT27) at danger, proceed at caution and obey all other signals.

Driver repeats back and then does the above stuff.

there are variations depending on what exactly is wrong but thats the gist of it.
All very routine really and pretty much a non event although it does add to the signallers workload quite a lot.

 

[bnm]

Probably a track circuit fault preventing the signal being cleared.

The procedure is to stop, contact the signaller, get permission to proceed, sound horn and off you go at caution.

...being prepared to stop short of any obstruction?

 

[Tomnick]

...being prepared to stop short of any obstruction?

We don't need to say that as part of the instruction now, just as we don't need to remind drivers of the presence of TPWS loops at a signal being passed at danger. Doesn't do any harm to mention either though!

 

[Minilad]

And we no longer need to sound the horn when passing a signal at danger (with authority)

 

[Alistair G.]

I'm curious what the signallers procedure is now, this is on the line just out of Portsmouth, any signallers care to weigh in?

There of course rules to follow which if you go to the rssb website u can find them, but the basics of it as a signaller are:

Make sure the route is clear (I.e. You know you haven't just out a train into the section), ensure you have your route set correctly and that all points have detection in them and that you have "locked" them in the required position (to stop you swinging them once you have talked the train by). Then instruct the driver and although there is no longer a requirement to do so I still like to remind drivers if a signal has TPWS fitted to it..... Drivers, I'm interested to hear whether you like to still hear this from signallers or not.

There are more complex rules if your talking past signals at danger for other scenarios (rough ride, overhead wires, SLW etc....) but all can be found on the RSSB or no doubt someone can explain them all in great detail on here if you are interested..... Sadly, I don't have energy to do all that now!

 

[455driver]

Drivers, I'm interested to hear whether you like to still hear this from signallers or not.

Yes I do, it doesnt do any harm to warn/remind us.

 

[Alistair G.]

Yes I do, it doesnt do any harm to warn/remind us.

That what I thought, and pleased to hear it, but there is always one exception to the rule. Most have just repeated it back to confirm or even thanked me for the reminder but there been one or two who just comment back "you don't have to instruct of me that anymore"..... I don't have to do a lot of things but just trying to be helpful mate is my usual answer, but you can't please everybody all the time I guess

 

[455driver]

but there been one or two who just comment back "you don't have to instruct of me that anymore"

You just have to talk to them once in a while, we have to work with the miserable sods!

 

[Alistair G.]

You just have to talk to them once in a while, we have to work with the miserable sods!

Lol

 

[Gemz91]

Drivers, I'm interested to hear whether you like to still hear this from signallers or not.

Always use the TPWS temporary over ride button whether the signal is fitted with TPWS or not, so not too fussed personally.

 

[TOCDriver]

You just have to talk to them once in a while, we have to work with the miserable sods!

They also seem to forget that every communication is recorded. And if they cock things up, it will be they who get the kick up the @ss because they would have been quite clearly warned and reminded.

 

[carriageline]

You just have to talk to them once in a while, we have to work with the miserable sods!

It's even worse when you have an ongoing signal fault for 4 months, which you are stopping to advise drivers about before clearing it, and they are having a go at you for stopping and telling them for the 1000th time!! Sorry mate, but it's worse for me repeating the same message umpteen times an hour!

I know of a signaller who was hung up on mid spiel by the driver (who was fed up of hearing it multiple times a day for the aforementioned 4 months)!!! I think he got more fed up when forced to sit there looking at the red until he rang signaller back who have him the spiel again!



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[ComUtoR]

We don't need to say that as part of the instruction now,

3. Authorising the movement
3.1 Instructions from the Signaller

You must tell the Driver:

• why the signal needs to be passed at danger
• how far the movement can proceed

You must instruct the Driver to proceed at caution

Excuse my pedantism for a second but are you saying you do not need to say the whole. "...Being prepared ..." and will just say "Proceed at caution" ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[atillathehunn]

Sorry for perhaps a stupid question. I understand that the signal has a protection fitted, to prevent it being passed at danger accidentally. I understood that if one either approaches a signal too fast, or indeed passes the signal at danger, the brakes are automatically applied.
When a driver has accepted permission to pass the signal at danger, is there some form of temporary 'off' switch that the driver must press to ensure all the brakes don't come on?
Sorry if this has been asked on this thread and I didn't understand.

Groets

A

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes, the TPWS train stop override button. There is also a seperate TPWS temporary isolation switch if you are required to pass multiple signals such as during temporary block working.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sorry for perhaps a stupid question. I understand that the signal has a protection fitted, to prevent it being passed at danger accidentally. I understood that if one either approaches a signal too fast, or indeed passes the signal at danger, the brakes are automatically applied.
When a driver has accepted permission to pass the signal at danger, is there some form of temporary 'off' switch that the driver must press to ensure all the brakes don't come on?
Sorry if this has been asked on this thread and I didn't understand.

Groets

A

TPWS - Train Stop and Train over-speed
TPWS - Temporary Isolation switch in the cab

 

[Llama]

The TPWS train stop override button is pressed whenever a signal is required to be passed at danger, this button stops brake applications from TPWS 'train stop' loops (TSS) for 20 seconds -or 60 seconds for freight- although once the TSS is detected within that 20/60 second period the system then reverts to normal operation.
The rules require drivers to press the train stop override button irrespective of whether the signal is actually fitted with TSS. It used to be the signaller's responsibility to remind the driver of the TPWS TSS at signals so fitted but that changed recently, so to avoid unnecessary TPWS activations a blanket instruction now applies. It is obvious to a driver where TPWS TSS are in normal conditions but if snow is lying on the ground or indeed flood water (quite likely to be the cause of signalling equipment failure in itself) then the TPWS loops might be obscured.

 

[atillathehunn]

Thank you for the replies! I see now actually someone posted a hint to the answer I think probably while I was typing.

Is the override just active for one signal, or must you remember to switch the system back on again when you are passed the signal? I see that someone stated there are two types of override

 

[Tomnick]

Excuse my pedantism for a second but are you saying you do not need to say the whole. "...Being prepared ..." and will just say "Proceed at caution" ?

Cheers in advance.

Yes, apparently so! It's now up to the driver to interpret "at caution" to include "being prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Seems fair, I suppose, but equally it doesn't hurt to say the whole thing as part of the instruction!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you for the replies! I see now actually someone posted a hint to the answer I think probably while I was typing.

Is the override just active for one signal, or must you remember to switch the system back on again when you are passed the signal? I see that someone stated there are two types of override

The override is 'active' only for a short period of time, as above. There's also a switch to isolate it, under different circumstances. One or two signalmen inadvertently instructed drivers to isolate it rather than override it when passing a signal at danger, not appreciating the distinction, so the rule was quickly changed so that we only reminded the driver of the presence of TPWS and let him work out the rest (and, as above, we don't even need to do that now).

 

[pompeyfan]

Seems like the best place to ask although it is slightly off topic, why is the signalling in portsmouth so..... Temperamental? It seems like there is an issue nearly every day in the portsmouth or havant area, why is that?

 

[rebmcr]

Presumably even if the route is set correctly, and something has been seen to exit the section, if there is a failed track circuit then the signaller cannot be absolutely sure the line is clear — so the "proceed at caution" bit is in case a carriage has fallen off the back of the train in front?

 

[O L Leigh]

Excuse my pedantism

It's pedantry. Sheesh!! Flipping amateurs.

Drivers, I'm interested to hear whether you like to still hear this from signallers or not.

I tend to have already looked out the window to see whether or not there is TPWS at the signal in question, but I suppose that there are some of my colleagues who have not and need a reminder. Belt and braces, I'd say. It does no harm.

Presumably even if the route is set correctly, and something has been seen to exit the section, if there is a failed track circuit then the signaller cannot be absolutely sure the line is clear — so the "proceed at caution" bit is in case a carriage has fallen off the back of the train in front?

I think that the problem comes if the signaller does not know the reason why the signal cannot be cleared. If it's defective crossing equipment then he will usually be aware, but in the event of there being no immediate obvious cause the concern is that there may be a broken rail in the section.

O L Leigh

 

[carriageline]

Then of course you get signals that won't clear, even if all associated track circuits are clear, and everything else is working!


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[payne747]

Thanks for the replies, the north bound signal has gone again this morning, just before the railway triangle. The signaller must be going insane having to repeat the message every 7 minutes or so!