Merseyrail new stock

[507 001]

That rail system was mentioned in another thread, is there enough room in the Merseyrail tunnels to use that, then the entire Merseyrail system could be converted to overhead

Judge for yourself, personally I very much doubt it....






You also have to ask, why would you want to?

*The system is pretty much self contained.
*There is no freight that would benefit.
*Line speeds are unlikely to be raised any higher.
*Expensive (especially when there are other lines that are not electrified at all).

The only benefit I can see is that 25Kv is more efficient, however when you consider the fairly short length of each line (Chester, Ellesmere Port and Southport Excluded) will it really make that much difference?

 

[baldyman26]

Does anybody know what has happened to the internal refresh the trains where due to have. The new livery is progressing (still not keen on the grey side) but nothing else has been mentioned.

 

[59CosG95]

Does anybody know what has happened to the internal refresh the trains where due to have. The new livery is progressing (still not keen on the grey side) but nothing else has been mentioned.

Any pictures of the new livery?

 

[158722]

Judge for yourself, personally I very much doubt it....

You also have to ask, why would you want to?

*The system is pretty much self contained.
*There is no freight that would benefit.
*Line speeds are unlikely to be raised any higher.
*Expensive (especially when there are other lines that are not electrified at all).

The only benefit I can see is that 25Kv is more efficient, however when you consider the fairly short length of each line (Chester, Ellesmere Port and Southport Excluded) will it really make that much difference?

I'd suggest that there are potential gains in terms of wider integration of the Northern line other services, if that went 25 KV. At the south end, Hunts Cross services extended to Warrington Central & Manchester, should that be in the next round of CP electrification programs. Same at the north end, if Wigan-Southport/Kirkby gets done, permitting longer through workings.

Less of an argument for the Wirral lines, granted.

 

[MCR247]

I'd suggest that there are potential gains in terms of wider integration of the Northern line other services, if that went 25 KV. At the south end, Hunts Cross services extended to Warrington Central & Manchester, should that be in the next round of CP electrification programs. Same at the north end, if Wigan-Southport/Kirkby gets done, permitting longer through workings.

Less of an argument for the Wirral lines, granted.

The next order of stock will be dual voltage, so ^ would be possible without wiring everywhere

 

[pablo]

That rail system was mentioned in another thread, is there enough room in the Merseyrail tunnels to use that, then the entire Merseyrail system could be converted to overhead

That's a double track tunnel so the diameter is a lot greater than a single track and there is more headroom for the support posts to hang down from the roof.

 

[507 001]

The next order of stock will be dual voltage, so ^ would be possible without wiring everywhere

Precisely. Why convert what's there already?

 

[Wavertreelad]

I'd suggest that there are potential gains in terms of wider integration of the Northern line other services, if that went 25 KV. At the south end, Hunts Cross services extended to Warrington Central & Manchester, should that be in the next round of CP electrification programs. Same at the north end, if Wigan-Southport/Kirkby gets done, permitting longer through workings.

Less of an argument for the Wirral lines, granted.

I'd agree wider integration would make sense and in part perhaps explain the latest delay in announcing the order (if any) for new stock.

Precisely. Why convert what's there already?

I' don't think anybody is suggesting that the present 3rd rail equipment is replaced in the immediate future, but given that at least some of it will have to be renewed in the lifetime of the new stock, it might be cost effective to replace it with OHLE especially where is serves a neighbouring section of the network which is electrified at 25 kv .

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the estimated remaining lifespan of the current 3rd rail equipment on the Merseyrail network?

 

[jopsuk]

even if the tunnels can't be converted to AC, there's no real reason why you couldn't have dual voltage stock (class 313s with pantographs down fit) and wire up everything but the tunnels. Not ideal, but could be done, and would then allow Merseyrail operation onto the wider 25kV network.

 

[MCR247]

You could have merseyrail operation on the wider 25kV network without ripping up the 3rd rail though?!

I really don't get everyone's obsession with wiring Merseyrail...

 

[jopsuk]

The only reason to do it would be as with the southern network, do it when the equipment is life expired.

 

[Class377/5]

There are savings go be had with OHLE vs DC but you have to look long term.

There is of course another alternative. Bombardier is currently testing a 379 with batteries and looking for around a 40 mile range. A lightweight version could be used to remove the 3rd rail while avoiding the AC issues. Hitachi are offering a battery on their new models too.

 

[jamesst]

Does anybody know what has happened to the internal refresh the trains where due to have. The new livery is progressing (still not keen on the grey side) but nothing else has been mentioned.

Meant to be starting the internal refresh in January apparently

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only reason to do it would be as with the southern network, do it when the equipment is life expired.

The tunnels used to be notoriously wet, of course.
You don't see water coursing down the Wirral line track any more, but I don't know if that has any bearing on what electrical system will work down there.

Off topic, but there's nothing much to see of the Hamilton Square refurb yet, at least at platform level. Been closed for a week now.
I also noticed today that the nice new refurbished underpass at Lime St had pools of water in it, just like before they spent a lot of money recladding all the walls.

 

[Nym]

Cladding won't stop water ingress, the only thing you can really do is bund and pump it out...

 

[baldyman26]

Cladding hasn't done anything to make Lime st subway anything more than a grey drab tunnel. Had more character before they messed with it and strangely seemed cleaner.
It was a waste of money that won't stand the test of time in my opinion.

 

[childwallblues]

They have started tiling Lime Street Subway at the St Johns Lane end.

 

[edwin_m]

Judge for yourself, personally I very much doubt it....

Also the 507/508s have a flatter roof than most other stock, so even if there appears to be room in that photo there might not be for replacement stock which was closer to the standard height. Limiting clearances in the tunnels could be expensive if it forces suppliers to build a non-standard bodyshell.

 

[jopsuk]

They're about 20cm shorter than an electrostar, though most of that is taken up be being flatter- I'd be very surprised if the "shoulders" are much lower than most other stock, and the pantograph on a 313 (which fits) is pretty much at the same height as other stock.

 

[Olaf]

You also have to ask, why would you want to?

*The system is pretty much self contained.
*There is no freight that would benefit.
*Line speeds are unlikely to be raised any higher.
*Expensive (especially when there are other lines that are not electrified at all).

The only benefit I can see is that 25Kv is more efficient, however when you consider the fairly short length of each line (Chester, Ellesmere Port and Southport Excluded) will it really make that much difference?

I agree; I do not expect the tunnel sections would be converted wholesale. However, the deployment of dual-voltage stock would allow the integration of the Merseyrail network into the wider north west network and thus allow the opening of new routes as AC electrification spreads.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Also the 507/508s have a flatter roof than most other stock, so even if there appears to be room in that photo there might not be for replacement stock which was closer to the standard height. Limiting clearances in the tunnels could be expensive if it forces suppliers to build a non-standard bodyshell.

Class 313's have been trialled through the new tunnels many years ago, albeit without their pan working. The question therefore as yet still unanswered is there sufficient clearance for a working pan and OHLE in the new tunnels?

 

[edwin_m]

They're about 20cm shorter than an electrostar, though most of that is taken up be being flatter- I'd be very surprised if the "shoulders" are much lower than most other stock, and the pantograph on a 313 (which fits) is pretty much at the same height as other stock.

I agree - my point was that it might be possible to fit a wire above the flattish roof of a 507/508, but that doesn't mean that it would fit above the less flat roof that the replacement stock might have.

 

[507 001]

I agree; I do not expect the tunnel sections would be converted wholesale. However, the deployment of dual-voltage stock would allow the integration of the Merseyrail network into the wider north west network and thus allow the opening of new routes as AC electrification spreads.

Yes that is fair enough. We've known for a while that any extensions would be 25kv. However many people on this forum are suggesting that the tunnels be wired too which as pointed out would be nigh on impossible and almost completely pointless.

Class 313's have been trialled through the new tunnels many years ago, albeit without their pan working. The question therefore as yet still unanswered is there sufficient clearance for a working pan and OHLE in the new tunnels?

4.5 Electrical clearances beneath structures
4.5.1 Values for the Static and Passing clearances for a
nominal voltage of 25kV ac are:-
With the prior approval of the Health and Safety Executive, Railway Inspectorate, the Passing Clearance between a pantograph and a brick or masonry bridge or tunnel may be reduced to 80mm.

Upper value= Normal Minimum
Lower value= Special Reduced

Static clearance
200mm
150mm

Passing clearance
150mm
125mm

On that basis I'm going to say it's a no.
It might be possible with the PEP body style but anything else is probably going to be too close to the tunnel roof.

 

[razor89]

Cladding hasn't done anything to make Lime st subway anything more than a grey drab tunnel. Had more character before they messed with it and strangely seemed cleaner.
It was a waste of money that won't stand the test of time in my opinion.

If I remember correctly the subway had the same rubber flooring and yellowish plastic wall panels that the underground station had?

If so these were replaced out of necessity rather than just a vanity project. I believe both the rubber floor tiles and the plastic wall panels don't meet current standards regarding fire safety.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Yes that is fair enough. We've known for a while that any extensions would be 25kv. However many people on this forum are suggesting that the tunnels be wired too which as pointed out would be nigh on impossible and almost completely pointless.

On that basis I'm going to say it's a no.
It might be possible with the PEP body style but anything else is probably going to be too close to the tunnel roof.

The only information I could trace on the 70's built tunnels is included in an earlier post and that they are 4.5 mtrs in diameter compared to the 7 mtrs of the original tunnel under the river, which has a clearance of 5.8 mtrs from track to the tunnel roof. The 507/508's have a height of 3.58 mtr which leaves just 0.92 mtr for the pan, but of course ignores fact that the track sits above the bottom of the tunnel. However, the article about the new tunnels, mentions "New rails were fixed to Vipa baseplates. Jigs were used to set out the straight rails to the required radius with up to 65mm cant. The design alignment was based on the envelope of a Class 66 - more onerous than the stock generally used in the tunnel." Given a Class 66 is 3.9 mtrs high this would suggest there is at least a 15 cms gap between the roof tunnel and the Class 66 roof and thus potentially 59 cms between the roof of a 507/508 and the tunnel although this would not be available across the full width of the tunnel for the pan to operate assuming there was sufficient clearance.

The earlier post containing the links is shown below.

According to this link http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=1151 the River Mersey Wirral Line tunnel were built to the following specification.

The main tunnel is lined with a 685mm thick layer of brickwork (six courses) set in cement mortar where it runs through sandstone. The brickwork is increased to eight courses where clay was encountered. It is 7.9m wide and 7m tall overall with 5.8m clearance between the rails and tunnel roof. There are recesses at 41.1m intervals on each side. The flanking tunnels are lined in four courses of brickwork. In addition to the double standard gauge tracks, telephone cables were laid in the running tunnel to improve cross-river communications.

This link http://www.storycontracting.com/rail/project-focus/87-merseyloop-an-underground-network describes the work of replacing the track in the 1970's built Wirral Loop tunnels under Liverpool and confirms the diameter of the tunnels.

Whilst I am no expert, the original tunnels would appear to have plenty of clearance for OHLE but I am not so sure about the 70's built tunnels on both the Wirral and Northern Lines, perhaps somebody can confirm?

To see the difference in the size of tunnel construction parts of in this video show the relevant sections.

http://youtu.be/MqQSrrXmrjk.

 

[fowler9]

I have no further info but I would be frankly astounded if the new tunnels in Liverpool have space for overhead electrification.