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'Caught' by Revenue Protection

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racyrich

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Possibly a silly question, but . . .

If the inspectors don't believe the address given, and issue a summons for said offence, to where will the summons be sent?
If to the given address, and it's answered, hasn't that rather refuted the case there and then.
 
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najaB

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I didnt see the OP reference a UPFN - I think that has been assumed by other posters - I believe he wouldve been writing up a Penalty Fare first.
This doesn't match with what the OP stated:

I offered to buy a ticket at the destination but the officer did not have a machine. I suggested that there was one across the footbridge on the other side, but he refused to let me do this. Then he told me to fill out an A5 sized form (Unpaid Fare Notice – UPFN) that meant I would have to pay the fare in ten days (plus an admin charge). This I accepted, and filled the form out.

Also, I don't believe that ATW operate a penalty fare scheme.
 
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Clip

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Apologies I always think that they do for some reason...
 

Merseysider

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Not necessarily directed towards the OP, but what's the point in issuing a UPFN if the passenger has the means to pay? Is it purely to get their details on file and keep an eye out for any future 'events'?
 

ian959

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Possibly a silly question, but . . .

If the inspectors don't believe the address given, and issue a summons for said offence, to where will the summons be sent?
If to the given address, and it's answered, hasn't that rather refuted the case there and then.

Err, think about the processes involved in even getting as far as a summons. What happens after the RPI reports the matter to the legal/enforcement department for instance? Quite a few steps have to happen before a summons would be issued, amongst those would be verifying the details of the reported passenger.
 

Flamingo

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Some of the details are a bit vauge;
- Where exactly was the OP stopped? (There is no footbridge in Cardiff Central).
- Were they in a queue for the unpaid fares window, or trying to leave the station?
- What was the day and time?
- Where did they ask for a ticket from and too?
- What ticket did they ask for?
- Did they have the means to pay on them?
- How were they going to pay (cash, card, what type of card)?
- Did they fail the attitude test?

All these are relevant, and the answers would indicate what inferences could be drawn by a court.

The only reason to write a UFN is if the person has not got means to pay. ATW do not have a PF scheme.

I would strongly urge the OP that if they offer an out-of-court settlement, grab it with both hands. If the OP does feel strongly enough that they wish to protest their innocence in a court, please let us know where and when (I'll dust off my popcorn machine...).
 
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Fare-Cop

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I'd say there's a good percentage of people, who if the guard doesn't come down, will simply walk out the station and think "I got away with it today!". These people will happily pay when confronted, and are just chancing it - or "playing the system".


This is pretty much the scenario dealt with robustly by a stipendary Magistrate and the conviction upheld by the Court of Appeal in the Corbyn case (1978).

Intent to pay ONLY if challenged is an intention not to pay if not challenged.
 

DaveNewcastle

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This is pretty much the scenario dealt with robustly by a stipendary Magistrate and the conviction upheld by the Court of Appeal in the Corbyn case (1978).

Intent to pay ONLY if challenged is an intention not to pay if not challenged.
Exactly so!

We could even go further, and confidently say that 'intent to pay ONLY if or when challenged is an intention not to pay - full stop'. For the purposes of bringing forward a prosecution, we don't need to speculate about the circumstances in which the passenger is not challenged, unless we are looking at the passenger's regular and repeated travel without ticket and without challenge, and seeking to recover the lost revenue from those journeys. Costs and lost revenue have been recovered through the Courts from passengers, some of whose journeys were both unpaid and unchallenged.

There is some disagreement about what the "first available opportunity" is and . . . .
Indeed there is. But a lack of clear definition doesn't leave us in a hopeless position - we have no difficulty in knowing what "first available opportunity" does NOT mean (in the context of buying a ticket before boarding a train). And when cases are being considered for prosecution, then it is those where a significant "opportunity" will NOT have been taken, whatever the details of the circumstances might be, that will be advanced.

Additionally, it clearly does NOT mean any of the excuses or complaints that passengers offer every day when asked about their non-existent ticket, no matter how forcefully they are argued, nor how carefully they are constructed and explained in hindsight; those passengers have passed at least one opportunity to do that one important thing required of them: to buy a ticket.

For those who might seek absolute definitions, I can only say that these definitions may not be as helpful as you might think: please consider other concepts which carry forceful legal obligations but are not defined, such as Negligence. We don't need a definition of the degree of care and attention required of us, but it becomes very clear when someone has been negligent, and the illustrations in Case Law are all we need to secure convictions after the event. It is after the event that the person's failings become most apparent (as it is with rail fare avoidance).
 
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RichardC

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Some of the details are a bit vauge;
- Where exactly was the OP stopped? (There is no footbridge in Cardiff Central).
- Were they in a queue for the unpaid fares window, or trying to leave the station?
- What was the day and time?
- Where did they ask for a ticket from and too?
- What ticket did they ask for?
- Did they have the means to pay on them?
- How were they going to pay (cash, card, what type of card)?
- Did they fail the attitude test?

The only reason to write a UFN is if the person has not got means to pay.

Okay, some answers:
I was stopped in Cathays station. Sherman Theatre side.
I was not in a queue, just in the path beside the platform. The ticket office was closed.
It was a Thursday and around 6pm
I asked for a return ticket from Pontypridd to Cathays
Yes, I had cash AND a visa debit card
What is an 'attitude test' ?

And a question from me: If as you say, 'The only reason to write a UFN is if the person has not got means to pay,' then why did they immediately write up a UPF, without offering me a chance to pay?
 
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Merseysider

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The attitude test?

Basically - if you're polite, truthful and co-operative with the staff, they may be a bit more lenient/show discretion/not report you for prosecution/you get the idea.
If you're an a*sehole to them, god help you.

As you passed an opportunity to pay, simply allowing you to pay the fare when challenged at the end of your journey doesn't really motivate you to buy before you get on the train in future does it?
 

jon0844

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Isn't it time Arriva, Northern and others change the wording so it's made incredibly clear that you can't skip an opportunity to buy a ticket before travel?

And then Guards stop selling tickets to these people, even as a favour, as this just causes people who assume they can still do it (because every now and then they actually can) to get into trouble when their luck runs out.

And I don't mean luck as in there being real intent, although clearly a lot of people may well end up arriving at their destination having not been sold a ticket on board and then walk out without ever getting one.

Given it's hard to tell what someone might have done, unless you actually catch them leaving the station, it seems simple to change posters, the wording on websites (including old text that hasn't been updated) and so on.
 

headshot119

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Okay, some answers:
I was stopped in Cathays station. Sherman Theatre side.
I was not in a queue, just in the path beside the platform. The ticket office was closed.
It was a Thursday and around 6pm
I asked for a return ticket from Pontypridd to Cathays
Yes, I had cash AND a visa debit card
What is an 'attitude test' ?

And a question from me: If as you say, 'The only reason to write a UFN is if the person has not got means to pay,' then why did they immediately write up a UPF, without offering me a chance to pay?

When you say the path beside the platform I take it you mean the ramp off of the platform into the car park?

Arriva are taking a very hard line on fare evasion that is taking place at Cathays, with regular RPI blockades happening on both sides of the station at various times of the day.

By writing you a UFN they then have your details on file, and can use these to see whether you are a repeat offender. However reading your opening post it seems you have been instead written up on the TIR form.

I would expect the out of court settlement to be a large sum, upwards of £150 plus the cost of the fare. (I know of two people who have been similarly caught out Cathays and had out of court settlements rejected when below that amount).
 

ECML180

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Isn't it time Arriva, Northern and others change the wording so it's made incredibly clear that you can't skip an opportunity to buy a ticket before travel?

My local station (which I won't name) has a ticket office and self-service machines despite only having on average 3 trains an hour either way. Yet it also has (quite old) signs at the entrance saying 'buy tickets on board' or words to that effect, it does make you wonder if they've ever tried a prosecution from there as RPIs regularly descend on platforms and trains around there during the peak!
 

Flamingo

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Okay, some answers:
I was stopped in Cathays station. Sherman Theatre side.
I was not in a queue, just in the path beside the platform. The ticket office was closed.
It was a Thursday and around 6pm
I asked for a return ticket from Pontypridd to Cathays
Yes, I had cash AND a visa debit card
What is an 'attitude test' ?

And a question from me: If as you say, 'The only reason to write a UFN is if the person has not got means to pay,' then why did they immediately write up a UPF, without offering me a chance to pay?
Thanks for that. I'm not familiar with Cathays station. It sounds like you may have avoided a more serious offence, but would be a Bylaw 18 offence. This, although a court appearence is possible, does not carry a criminal record. Fines of around £400 seem to go with this, so if offered an out of court settlement, take it. Some of the experts will be along to give chapter and verse on it, I'm sure!

Regards them writing an UFN, I'm afraid I don't know, but would guess that as has been said it was to get your details on record.
 
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Greenback

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Cathays is a very attractive destination for those who don't want to buy a ticket. It's not far from the city centre and doesn't have any of those pesky barriers to negotiate to get out. Normally, it doesn't have any staff there, either.

A friend of mine travels daily from Barry to Cathays with a season ticket. He is irritated by the fact that there are so few revenue blocks when he is travelling, and wants more!

As to the UFN, I agree it was written to capture the OP's details.
 

Greenback

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They didn't last time I passed through, but things may have changed. I'll text my friend for an update!
 

RichardC

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Okay, so I tried to call Transport Investigations Ltd, as they deal with customers in these situations...

Telephone: 01345656655 <----number not in use.

(Reminds me of the council worker's speech in The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.)

Anyone know the right number for this that actually works?
 

Clip

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I would await for the letter from ATW first. I cant remember if you already had one or not.
 

headshot119

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They didn't last time I passed through, but things may have changed. I'll text my friend for an update!

There have been barriers at Cathays since at least January 2013.

The Cardiff side tends to have the gates in use whenever the ticket office is manned. It's been a long time since I've seen the Valleys side in use, it's more normal to just have RPIs stood around.
 

RichardC

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The stupidest thing about all this is that if I was dishonest enough to give a false name and address, I would have been ale to walk away scott free.

Instead, I was compliant and honest, gave my true details and still they threw a TIR form at me because their method of verifying my address didn't work!
 

Clip

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The stupidest thing about all this is that if I was dishonest enough to give a false name and address, I would have been ale to walk away scott free.

Instead, I was compliant and honest, gave my true details and still they threw a TIR form at me because their method of verifying my address didn't work!

No, the stupidist thing about all this is that you didnt purchase a ticket before you had travelled. If you had of done so then you would not be in the position you are now.

As it is, it's an expensive lesson to learn.
 

Merseysider

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If I was dishonest enough to give a false name and address, I would have been ale to walk away scott free.
Not necessarily true; as it's a journey you've said you make quite often, it's highly possible you'd be recognised and picked up in the future if they found out you'd lied, and the punishment would be much worse.
 

Greenback

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My mate has confirmed that there have been barriers there for well over a year but they aren't always in use, depending on the time of day.

It must have been longer than I thought since I was last there!
 
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