'Caught' by Revenue Protection

[RichardC]

Last week, I took a train journey as I usually do, from my home station to Cardiff. The guard on the train saw me and even said 'hello' but he didn't come around. I got off at the destination and RP officers stopped me.

Now, I was aware that I had no ticket and I was not purposely evading payment.

Two RP officers began to interrogate me as to my journey, and they asked me why I didn't purchase a ticket from the station that I got on at. My only answer was that I was in a hurry and thought, quite normally, that I could get one on the train from the guard. Until then, I had no idea that it was illegal to bypass a machine before getting on a train.

I offered to buy a ticket at the destination but the officer did not have a machine. I suggested that there was one across the footbridge on the other side, but he refused to let me do this. Then he told me to fill out an A5 sized form (Unpaid Fare Notice – UPFN) that meant I would have to pay the fare in ten days (plus an admin charge). This I accepted, and filled the form out.

Another officer used his mobile phone to verify my address, and read my details to an organisation which was presumably a way of checking that I’d given them the correct info. He came back and said “You are not registered at this address.” Well, I *am* registered at that address, I wasn’t lying, I’ve lived there for 8 years and I’m on the electoral register.

The officer repeated that I was *not* registered there, and I said that I can’t prove otherwise – I don’t carry utility bills with me (the household bills are not in my name anyway), so what happens now?

The officer went straight to an A4 form (Travel Irregularity Report -TIR) which had ‘arrest’ wording on it, which I thought was a little extreme. Anyway, I filled it out and despite being unable to prove my truthfulness with my address, they let me go, telling me to expect a court summons. The entire experience was embarrassing and unnecessarily long-winded.

The Passengers Charter states that the RP officers should have first offered me a chance to pay the fare there and then (they didn’t) or issued me with the ‘Unpaid Fare Notice’. They tried this to begin with, but as they were unable to verify my address as true, (not my fault!) they just assumed that I gave them a false address and they went directly to the Travel Irregularity Report, which by the way, is a list of questions that are worded to make me seem like an intentional fare dodger.

I use the train countless times every year. Sometimes I get on the train and buy a ticket, sometimes I use the machine, sometimes I get a ticket at the destination barrier. Thousands of people do this every day – they bypass a working machine and the guard sells them a ticket with no trouble whatsoever.

I had no idea at all that it was mandatory to use the machine before boarding, and now because of this, I’m looking at a fine and a criminal record. But I still think the RP officers were not following correct procedure by denying me any other method of resolving the solution as set out in the Passengers Charter, and they made it impossible for me to defend myself. I fully intend to go to court over this, as I feel that although I DID pass the machine, I was unaware that it was an offence to do so and even then, I should’ve been given alternative methods of paying.

Any advice would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[Rich McLean]

Last week, I took a train journey as I usually do, from my home station to Cardiff. The guard on the train saw me and even said 'hello' but he didn't come around. I got off at the destination and RP officers stopped me.

Now, I was aware that I had no ticket and I was not purposely evading payment.

Two RP officers began to interrogate me as to my journey, and they asked me why I didn't purchase a ticket from the station that I got on at. My only answer was that I was in a hurry and thought, quite normally, that I could get one on the train from the guard. Until then, I had no idea that it was illegal to bypass a machine before getting on a train.

I offered to buy a ticket at the destination but the officer did not have a machine. I suggested that there was one across the footbridge on the other side, but he refused to let me do this. Then he told me to fill out an A5 sized form that meant I would have to pay the fare in ten days. This I accepted and filled the form out.

Another officer used his mobile phone to verify my address, and read my details to an organisation which was presumably a way of checking that I’d given them the correct info. He came back and said “You are not registered at this address.” Well, I *am* registered at that address, I wasn’t lying, I’ve lived there for 8 years and I’m on the electoral register.

The officer repeated that I was *not* registered there, and I said that I can’t prove otherwise – I don’t carry utility bills with me (the household bills are not in my name anyway), so what happens now?

The officer went straight to an A4 form which had ‘arrest’ wording on it, which I thought was a little extreme. Anyway, I filled it out and despite being unable to prove my truthfulness with my address, they let me go, telling me to expect a court summons. The entire experience was embarrassing and unnecessarily long-winded.

The Passengers Charter states that the RP officers should have first offered me a chance to pay the fare there and then (they didn’t) or issued me with the ‘ten days time’ form to pay the fare and an extra admin fee. They tried this to begin with, but as they were unable to verify my address as true, (not my fault!) they just assumed that I gave them a false address and they went directly to the summons paperwork, which by the way, is a list of questions that are worded to make me seem like an intentional fare dodger.

I use the train countless times every year. Sometimes I get on the train and buy a ticket, sometimes I use the machine, sometimes I get a ticket at the destination barrier. Thousands of people do this every day – they bypass a working machine and the guard sells them a ticket with no trouble whatsoever.

I had no idea at all that it was mandatory to use the machine before boarding, and now because of this, I’m looking at a fine and a criminal record. But I still think the RP officers were denying me any other method of resolving the solution as set out in the Passengers Charter, and they made it impossible for me to defend myself. I fully intend to go to court over this, as I feel that although I DID pass the machine, I was unaware that it was an offence to do so and even then, I should’ve been given alternative methods of paying.

Any advice would be helpful. Thanks.

Which station were you travelling from and to, and as you point out it did have a ticket machine, did it also have a open ticket office as well?

 

[RichardC]

I was travelling from Pontypridd (PPD) which does have a machine, but as it was after 6pm, the office was closed.

 

[RichardC]

I had no idea that passing the machine was illegal.

As an example, I watched at least 20 students get on the train at Taffs Well yesterday - bypassing the ticket machine - and they bought tickets from the guard. Are they also criminals too? By your definition, they are. Except they were able to get away with this 'crime' because the guard sold them tickets.

 

[causton]

Thanks for the reply, but you suggest that I'm an intentional fare dodger, which is totally incorrect. I had no idea that passing the machine was illegal.

As an example, I watched at least 20 students get on the train at Taffs Well yesterday - bypassing the ticket machine - and they bought tickets from the guard. Are they also criminals too? By your definition, they are. Except they were able to get away with this 'crime' because the guard sold them tickets.

Yes, if they wanted a ticket that was available from the machine, and they could use the machine (i.e. if the machine was card only, they could pay by card) then they were breaking the law by not using the ticket machine.

Unfortunately ignorance is no defence of the law and you have to buy a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity. This includes ticket machines I'm afraid.

 

[yorkie]

I had no idea that passing the machine was illegal.

If the machine sells the appropriate fare to your destination and accepts your chosen payment method (e.g. if you're paying by cash, it accepts cash), then you are required to use it.

To fail to do so would be a breach of the Railway Byelaws - which is a strict liability matter, and any defence you intend to mount would almost certainly fail.

However if that's all the evidence they have, then it would be difficult for the Company to prove intent, and thus a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act wouldn't be so straightforward. You could probably succeed in defending such a prosecution if you get a good solicitor.

But without knowing exactly where you got off and where you walked when you alighted, it's not possible to say what additional evidence they had. If you appeared to avoid a ticket office at the destination, then you're in trouble.

As an example, I watched at least 20 students get on the train at Taffs Well yesterday - bypassing the ticket machine - and they bought tickets from the guard. Are they also criminals too? By your definition, they are. Except they were able to get away with this 'crime' because the guard sold them tickets.

Unlikely, as ATW do Small Group tickets, which in my experience are not available from the machine.

Many stations have card-only ticket machines, so anyone paying by cash from such stations would also have to board without a ticket. Likewise, anyone paying by rail travel voucher.

 

[RichardC]

Okay, thanks for the replies.

If I want to write a letter asking for an out of court settlement, to whom would I write, please?

 

[furlong]

I fully intend to go to court over this

If it ever gets that far, it would be interesting to see how this played out in court.

If, on multiple occasions, a company sells tickets to a passenger who, on the face of it, has broken a law, but that company provides no indication to the passenger of this and no indication that it was open to the company to prosecute him or her, might any future attempt by that company to prosecute that individual for similar conduct in some way be construed as an abuse of the process of the court?

(Consider that the body that drew up the regulations concerning Penalty Fares seemed to take great care to avoid any possibility of normal tickets being sold in circumstances when a Penalty Fare could have been imposed without warning the person concerned of that possibility.)

If a company turns a blind eye to criminal conduct by a particular individual on numerous occasions, how can that preclude it from mounting a successful prosecution of that individual for similar conduct in future?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I had no idea that passing the machine was illegal.

As an example, I watched at least 20 students get on the train at Taffs Well yesterday - bypassing the ticket machine - and they bought tickets from the guard. Are they also criminals too? By your definition, they are. Except they were able to get away with this 'crime' because the guard sold them tickets.

Unfortunately, it is technically an offence, irregardless of whether you were aware of your obligation to hold a ticket for travel or not. Similarly, that obligation is not diminished by any other passengers having bought on board; neither is it diminished by any prior experience you might have in which you might have travelled without a ticket.

If, on multiple occasions, a company sells tickets to a passenger who, on the face of it, has broken a law, but that company provides no indication to the passenger of this and no indication that it was open to the company to prosecute him or her, might any future attempt by that company to prosecute that individual for similar conduct in some way be construed as an abuse of the process of the court?

It would be a very ill-advised passenger who attempted a challenge to a prosecution for ticketless travel on such grounds. It is a perfectly proper use of the Courts to reach a decision when required to do so with appropriate and persuasive evidence of a specific offence which has an established history of successful prosecutions.

If a company turns a blind eye to criminal conduct by a particular individual on numerous occasions, how can that preclude it from mounting a successful prosecution of that individual for similar conduct in future?

I'm unclear what it is you are asking, but it is the train operator's business to run trains, not to instruct the public in law, just as it's the passenger's business to buy a ticket, and it is the Courts' business to test evidence against statutes and precedents.

Turning a blind eye sets no precedent for an exception to the law.

RichardC, you should expect to be asked again about your travel and your identity/ address. Evidence of your address should remove any suspicion of the more serious suggestion that you might have misrepresented the facts, but you will still be left with the matter of the ticketless travel and unpaid fare. I strongly advise that you attempt to resolve this amicably. There is little prospect of a better outcome by challenging it.

 

[island]

I don't see it mentioned above, although I may have missed it; I would chip in that the offence of joining a train without a ticket, which you've committed, does not carry a criminal record. The offences of evading or attempting to avoid payment of your fare with intent, and giving a false name or address, which on the face of it you do not appear to me to have committed, do carry a criminal record.

 

[najaB]

This is not intended as advice, it's just a question.

It seems that the RPI's 'jumped the gun' in moving from issuing an UFN to filling in a TIR (and starting the ball rolling on a prosecution) based on an incorrect belief that the OP was lying about their address. Would proving that the address given was correct be reasonable grounds to ask the TOC to drop the case?

 

[bb21]

This is not intended as advice, it's just a question.

It seems that the RPI's 'jumped the gun' in moving from issuing an UFN to filling in a TIR (and starting the ball rolling on a prosecution) based on an incorrect belief that the OP was lying about their address. Would proving that the address given was correct be reasonable grounds to ask the TOC to drop the case?

No.

There is nothing compelling the RPI to issue a UPFN at all. He could have gone straight to a TIR if he so wished.

The fact that the address did not check out may not have helped, but that did not mean it was wrong to submit the case for further investigation. At this stage the OP has not been accused of anything yet, just that the case has been put forward for further investigation.

 

[Flamingo]

Arriva have had posters up at their stations for quite a while now saying that you need to buy before you board, the OP must have passed them.

The OP has also discovered the difference between Guards who sell tickets as that is their only option, and Revenue, who take it further because they can.

 

[tony6499]

If the guard was close enough to say hello to you why didn't you indicate you needed a ticket ?

 

[Greenback]

There are also posters inside ATW trains which make it very clear that you must buy a ticket at the first available opportunity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is some disagreement about what the "first available opportunity" is and not all TOCs consider a ticket machine to be an "opportunity to buy". My local TOC doesn't at my local station, and my local station is in a Penalty Fare area.

However, as a general rule, if the ticket machine takes both cards and cash it can be classed as an "opportunity to buy". NRE says that the ticket machine at Pontypridd takes both cards and cash.

It also depends where you were stopped at your destination. If you'd walked past an open ticket office before meeting the RPI at the exit then it is clear you have walked past an "opportunity to buy".

I think all you can do, when they write to you, is provide proof of your address and explain the situation, reminding Arriva Trains Wales that you had no intention of avoiding payment of the fare and that the ticket office at Pontypridd was closed.

 

[Greenback]

That's right. ATW will decide if passing the TVM was the first opportunity to buy, and I've no doubt they would be happy to test their decision in court should it ever come to that. Once the OP replies they will have a lot more facts in their possession on which to make a decision than we have here!

 

[RichardC]

Thanks for the replies.

If I want to write a letter asking for an out of court settlement, to whom would I write, please?

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is interesting that ATW are starting to take a harder line on the Valley Lines routes. Certainly will be a shock to the system for many.

 

[Greenback]

The situation on Valley Lines has been bad for quite a while. Although whenever I've travelled on any of the routes, the guards have done their best to check and sell tickets, they are hampered by frequent stops and the use of doubled up units.

Those that have been intent on playing the system rather than paying for a ticket may well be in for a shock when they get caught.

 

[Yew]

Those that have been intent on playing the system rather than paying for a ticket may well be in for a shock when they get caught.

Indeed, Although I hope its those who 'play the system' who get caught, rather than those who are unfamiliar with the system.

 

[maniacmartin]

Thanks for the replies.

If I want to write a letter asking for an out of court settlement, to whom would I write, please?

Sit tight and wait, and they will probably write to you asking for your version of the events. This may take a good few weeks as the prosecutions departments can have a big backlog. Once they've written to you, you can reply with your settlement offer.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, Although I hope its those who 'play the system' who get caught, rather than those who are unfamiliar with the system.

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, but from I've seen and heard ATW are making a decent enough job of things so far.

 

[headshot119]

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, but from I've seen and heard ATW are making a decent enough job of things so far.

I have to say the RPI teams ATW are deploying round Cardiff aren't the best, though that is perhaps the subject of another thread.

 

[trentside]

If the guard was close enough to say hello to you why didn't you indicate you needed a ticket ?

It's perfectly possible to say hello to the guard as you get on, make your way down the train and the guard simply doesn't come down. There's been a long running debate on these forums about the need to seek out the guard to purchase a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, Although I hope its those who 'play the system' who get caught, rather than those who are unfamiliar with the system.

In these circumstances, it's sometimes hard to tell them apart.

I'd say there's a good percentage of people, who if the guard doesn't come down, will simply walk out the station and think "I got away with it today!". These people will happily pay when confronted, and are just chancing it - or "playing the system". The unfamiliar may be confused about when and where to pay, and simply end up walking out the front door at destination without paying - and then been in the same position as the chancing passenger. All will end up caught in the same web when the RPIs are out and about, and it's ultimately up to them to make a decision on how to proceed.

In something like the OPs case, if address details don't check out for whatever reason it makes a report for prosecution more likely.

 

[455driver]

The Passengers Charter states that the RP officers should have first offered me a chance to pay the fare there and then (they didn’t) or issued me with the ‘Unpaid Fare Notice’. They tried this to begin with, but as they were unable to verify my address as true, (not my fault!) they just assumed that I gave them a false address and they went directly to the Travel Irregularity Report, which by the way, is a list of questions that are worded to make me seem like an intentional fare dodger.

can you post a link to that please because I cant find it!

 

[trentside]

Link for the Arriva Trains Wales passenger charter;

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/PassengersCharter/

The only reference I could find to that mentioned is the following;

Tickets for travel must be bought before your journey commences if there is a staffed ticket office, or a self service ticket vending machine is provided. Where such facilities are available, and you travel without a ticket you risk a fine or prosecution and reduced rate tickets will not normally be offered on the train or at your destination. Where fraudulent travel is involved it is our policy to prosecute in all cases.

 

[RichardC]

According to the Arriva Trains Wales Revenue Enforcement policy (http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/RevenueEnforcementPolicy/)
it says:

"Customers can make genuine mistakes.. If this is the first time a customer has been identified within this process they should not normally be taken to prosecution and may be offered an administrative settlement. The exception to this is if there is an attempted fraud or other aggravating circumstance.

Prosecution will be the last course of action. There are some areas where prosecution is unavoidable.

Fraud
Giving false personal details
Knowingly claiming a short journey
Repeat offender e.g. Travelling without a ticket on more than one occasion"

I believe I made a genuine mistake - i.e. thinking that I could bypass the machine and buy a ticket on the train - as many do every day. Hopefully I won't be prosecuted, as I had no intent to defraud or evade payment, nor aggravate the situation. The fact remains that the RP officers didn't have a very reliable method of verifying my address, which led them to believe I was being fraudulent.

 

[SussexMan]

Something I don't understand here is why the RPI started down the route of an Unpaid Fares Notice if the person had the means to pay.

Once again we seem to have two different possible outcomes through no fault of the passenger. I accept that RichardC should have bought a ticket before travel but once he was at the stage of the UPFN then had the address "checked out" then he would just have had to pay the fare but as the address didn't "check out" for whatever reason he is potentially facing a bill into three figures.

 

[Clip]

Something I don't understand here is why the RPI started down the route of an Unpaid Fares Notice if the person had the means to pay.
Once again we seem to have two different possible outcomes through no fault of the passenger. I accept that RichardC should have bought a ticket before travel but once he was at the stage of the UPFN then had the address "checked out" then he would just have had to pay the fare but as the address didn't "check out" for whatever reason he is potentially facing a bill into three figures.

I didnt see the OP reference a UPFN - I think that has been assumed by other posters - I believe he wouldve been writing up a Penalty Fare first.