North Wales Rail Services,statement from Welsh Government

[merlodlliw]

My local WG Assembly Members have received this statement from Edwina Hart yesterday about North Wales Rail Services, I have copied it for forum members information.

http://www.assemblywales.org/minist...s/north wales rail services/dat20140925-e.pdf

TITLE North Wales Rail Services
DATE 25 September 2014
BY Edwina Hart, Minister for Economy, Science and Technology

This statement provides an update on improvements to rail services in North Wales.

Following the UK Government’s announcement in July about the upgrade to the Halton Curve railway line, I wrote to the Secretary of State for Transport seeking further information on the project. In response the Secretary of State for Transport has confirmed that the Government is providing £10.4 million in support of the Liverpool City Region Growth Deal to fund the reinstatement of the Halton Curve. This will enable passenger services from North Wales and West Cheshire to directly access Liverpool City Centre and Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

The scheme is currently being developed by Network Rail and detailed proposals are expected to be available early next year. Subject to sign off, the UK Government has indicated that the scheme will be delivered in 2016/17.

The scheme has been identified as a priority by the Ministerial Task Force on North Wales Transport and is likely to make a significant difference to travellers on both sides of the border. The reintroduction of the Halton Curve will allow for more flexibility in rail services in that area and we have commissioned a study in conjunction with Merseytravel to assess demand and MerseyTravel have separately commissioned further work to develop options.

Furthermore, over the summer I responded to the UK Government’s consultation on the TransPennine Express and Northern Rail Franchises. Good connectivity between Wales and the North of England is very important to sustaining and developing regional economies, and I am keen that all opportunities are taken to strengthen this connectivity during the process of renewing the franchises. My response raised issues around connectivity with services to and from Wales, the Wales and Borders services to and from Manchester, the TransPennine Express services, security and safety, passenger experience and Active Travel.

I put up this statement from the Minister, has she is now taking a bigger interest in North Wales I am pleased to note,The local Chester/Shrewsbury rail user group have been invited by the Minister to give a presentation to the "North East Wales Rail Task Force" in October, I am sure the part redouble,Loss of services from May 2015 and Halton Curve will form part of the presentation.

 

[PHILIPE]

Perhaps the penny has dropped at last with the Welsh Assembly and they now realise that people in North Wales don't want to go to Cardiff.

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps the penny has dropped at last with the Welsh Assembly and they now realise that people in North Wales don't want to go to Cardiff.

This is a change in thinking by the Minister, Local MP Ian Lucas made the point "In the South all importance is East/West" so WG are slowing realising where people travel to in the North

 

[Olaf]

So from that statement, there is no evidence of demand for services since they have not yet done the analysis (which is what I had suspected), and there are no indications of what services will be offered because they have not done the planning yet.

In short; the scheme got pushed through without there being any business case for the project to be authorised.

 

[merlodlliw]

So from that statement, there is no evidence of demand for services since they have not yet done the analysis (which is what I had suspected), and there are no indications of what services will be offered because they have not done the planning yet.

In short; the scheme got pushed through without there being any business case for the project to be authorised.

I have yet to see the business case for more Cardiff/Holyhead semi fast services,which are planned,I am sure the business case for the Halton Curve was to have it completed while other infrastructure work was going ahead at a fraction of the price NR would charge for stand alone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So from that statement, there is no evidence of demand for services since they have not yet done the analysis (which is what I had suspected), and there are no indications of what services will be offered because they have not done the planning yet.

In short; the scheme got pushed through without there being any business case for the project to be authorised.

Despite the wording of the announcement, the only project authorised is the reinstatement of the route as a bi-directional line, as a result of the Liverpool-Weaver Jn resignalling.
Paid for by the UK government as part of the Liverpool City Region scheme.
No passenger services over the new line have been authorised, not least because nobody has any money for them.
We are in a "Todmorden Curve" situation.
We'll soon see if Northern are going to be asked to operate a local service when the 2016 franchise is specified later this year.
Otherwise it will be the Wales & Borders renewal in 2018 before anything happens.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think she realises from Liverpool South Parkway you need to take a bus to Liverpool Airport.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't think she realises from Liverpool South Parkway you need to take a bus to Liverpool Airport.

Probably not, its the same at Rhoose,Cardiff International, its a ten minute bus ride from the Station costing £1.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think she realises from Liverpool South Parkway you need to take a bus to Liverpool Airport.

Which takes 20 minutes, stopping at Garston and all the business parks on the way.
At least you can book a through rail/bus ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

Which takes 20 minutes, stopping at Garston and all the business parks on the way.
At least you can book a through rail/bus ticket.

There used to be a fast bus every 15 minutes but it got withdrawn. They even put the ex-London Bendy buses on that route at one point which made it look ridiculously underused.

Unless they've changed it, there's a Northern TVM at Liverpool Airport but it sells tickets from Liverpool South Parkway not from Liverpool Airport Bus. Some North West stations (including Manchester) don't have through fares to Liverpool Airport Bus while the LM set fares (such as Hartford-Liverpool Airport Bus) are incorrectly priced meaning you pay more if you buy a through ticket. Myself and other people have highlighted that to London Midland but they don't seem to care.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There used to be a fast bus every 15 minutes but it got withdrawn. They even put the ex-London Bendy buses on that route at one point which made it look ridiculously underused.

Unless they've changed it, there's a Northern TVM at Liverpool Airport but it sells tickets from Liverpool South Parkway not from Liverpool Airport Bus. Some North West stations (including Manchester) don't have through fares to Liverpool Airport Bus while the LM set fares (such as Hartford-Liverpool Airport Bus) are incorrectly priced meaning you pay more if you buy a through ticket. Myself and other people have highlighted that to London Midland but they don't seem to care.

I bought a Liverpool Airport Bus ticket from Hooton this week, but I also found out that the fare was the same as the rail fare to LPY, with the addition of Plusbus for Liverpool.
So it isn't a specific fare, really, just a Plusbus add-on. You get railcard discounts too.
It was local morning peak hour. Most of the bus passengers left en route, leaving only a handful for the airport (which was deathly quiet).

 

[Olaf]

Despite the wording of the announcement, the only project authorised is the reinstatement of the route as a bi-directional line, as a result of the Liverpool-Weaver Jn resignalling.

Yes, that is my understanding too, which is why it is odd that it has gone ahead at all without any service offerings to justify the expenditure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am sure the business case for the Halton Curve was to have it completed while other infrastructure work was going ahead at a fraction of the price NR would charge for stand alone.

Yes, there is an attempt to make economies were the costs can be reduced in conjunction with other projects. I think the Halton curve project was mentioned in conjunction with the re-signalling of the WCML branch into Liverpool, but still there has to be a reason for doing it in the first place. In this instance there is as yet none that I am aware of.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No passenger services over the new line have been authorised, not least because nobody has any money for them.
We are in a "Todmorden Curve" situation.

Good to see the fiasco at Todmorden had led to that phrase now being an accepted part of the English Language for ineptitude of the highest degree.

It certainly sits well in the statement made in your posting.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, that is my understanding too, which is why it is odd that it has gone ahead at all without any service offerings to justify the expenditure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, there is an attempt to make economies were the costs can be reduced in conjunction with other projects. I think the Halton curve project was mentioned in conjunction with the re-signalling of the WCML branch into Liverpool, but still there has to be a reason for doing it in the first place. In this instance there is as yet none that I am aware of.

On a North Wales perspective, Three political parties have stated in the Senedd they want to see direct North Wales/Liverpool services reinstated,how many will use the service is another matter, I understand Cardiff/Liverpool via Wrexham is another aspiration,but we will need to have more of the line redoubled for extra capacity, a lesson learned by Ministers who now realise the error of dueling a line with speed the only criteria.


Suppose we have to consider the growth in rail travel in the future.

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps the penny has dropped at last with the Welsh Assembly and they now realise that people in North Wales don't want to go to Cardiff.

By having direct rail services, it does indeed induce people to make journeys that they may otherwise not have made. (Changing trains en-route carries a risk of missed connections). For example, people in Wrexham can now make day trips to Cardiff whilst those in Cardiff & Newport can easily have a day out in Chester. In addition, custom is made up by those making shorter hops such as Ludlow to Shrewsbury or Abergavenny to Hereford.

This rail route, is all the more important due to the poor roads such as the A49. Hereford, must be about the biggest place in Britain not to have a by-pass and often has severe delays for people trying to drive from SE Wales to NE Wales. (The A483 is even slower than the Hereford route).

Hopefully, with the Halton curve in place, a direct service will operate from Liverpool to Cardiff via Wrexham. So, the people of Wrexham will indeed benefit by having direct services into their nearest large city instead of having to change at Chester to the slow Merseyrail service via the Wirrel.

What will happen should the north Wales main-line become electrified? It surely would not get 'value' from such a scheme by having diesel powered trains on the Holyhead to Cardiff route? All the more reason to have a service from Cardiff to Liverpool in that case with electrics running to Holyhead from Manchester & Birmingham via Crewe? The Voyagers on the Euston to Holyhead run could also be transferred elsewhere to relieve overcrowded diesel routes.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

So:

Gowerton redoubling - no extra trains
Wrexham redoubling - no extra trains
Halton Curve 'reavailabled' - no extra trains.

I thought we were in austerity?

Before you know it people will be suggesting building new high speed routes where peak usage is less than 50% now.....

 

[northwichcat]

Hereford, must be about the biggest place in Britain not to have a by-pass

Hereford - population 58,000.

What about Huddersfield - population 162,949 or Wigan - population 97,000?

 

[GarethJohn]

By having direct rail services, it does indeed induce people to make journeys that they may otherwise not have made. (Changing trains en-route carries a risk of missed connections). For example, people in Wrexham can now make day trips to Cardiff whilst those in Cardiff & Newport can easily have a day out in Chester. In addition, custom is made up by those making shorter hops such as Ludlow to Shrewsbury or Abergavenny to Hereford.

This rail route, is all the more important due to the poor roads such as the A49. Hereford, must be about the biggest place in Britain not to have a by-pass and often has severe delays for people trying to drive from SE Wales to NE Wales. (The A483 is even slower than the Hereford route).

Hopefully, with the Halton curve in place, a direct service will operate from Liverpool to Cardiff via Wrexham. So, the people of Wrexham will indeed benefit by having direct services into their nearest large city instead of having to change at Chester to the slow Merseyrail service via the Wirrel.

What will happen should the north Wales main-line become electrified? It surely would not get 'value' from such a scheme by having diesel powered trains on the Holyhead to Cardiff route? All the more reason to have a service from Cardiff to Liverpool in that case with electrics running to Holyhead from Manchester & Birmingham via Crewe? The Voyagers on the Euston to Holyhead run could also be transferred elsewhere to relieve overcrowded diesel routes.

How many would choose an Airport with a Train Station over one that required a Bus trip?
I certainly miss the direct Liverpool Trains from Shrewsbury and Id reckon that shoppers in Shrewsbury will choose Manchester over Liverpool due to the direct Train.
When I travel too the NW I have a choice and will always choose Wolves on the way there as it involves less changes, one at a smaller Station, a longer time on a better Train which is likely too be less busy at Wolves than Crewe.

 

[berneyarms]

By having direct rail services, it does indeed induce people to make journeys that they may otherwise not have made. (Changing trains en-route carries a risk of missed connections). For example, people in Wrexham can now make day trips to Cardiff whilst those in Cardiff & Newport can easily have a day out in Chester. In addition, custom is made up by those making shorter hops such as Ludlow to Shrewsbury or Abergavenny to Hereford.

This rail route, is all the more important due to the poor roads such as the A49. Hereford, must be about the biggest place in Britain not to have a by-pass and often has severe delays for people trying to drive from SE Wales to NE Wales. (The A483 is even slower than the Hereford route).

Hopefully, with the Halton curve in place, a direct service will operate from Liverpool to Cardiff via Wrexham. So, the people of Wrexham will indeed benefit by having direct services into their nearest large city instead of having to change at Chester to the slow Merseyrail service via the Wirrel.

What will happen should the north Wales main-line become electrified? It surely would not get 'value' from such a scheme by having diesel powered trains on the Holyhead to Cardiff route? All the more reason to have a service from Cardiff to Liverpool in that case with electrics running to Holyhead from Manchester & Birmingham via Crewe? The Voyagers on the Euston to Holyhead run could also be transferred elsewhere to relieve overcrowded diesel routes.

I'm not sure that any service from Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn is going to be that much faster than via the Wirral.

By my calculations, a service calling at Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway would take roughly 42 minutes to get from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street, while the Wirral service takes 43 minutes.

The benefit would be direct services from either North Wales or locations south of Chester.

 

[Envoy]

Hereford - population 58,000.

What about Huddersfield - population 162,949 or Wigan - population 97,000?

Huddersfield is by-passed by the M62. Wigan is by-passed by the M6 to the west and the M61 to the east. No motorway or dual highway goes anywhere near Hereford (the M50 being the nearest).

 

[merlodlliw]

So:

Gowerton redoubling - no extra trains
Wrexham redoubling - no extra trains
Halton Curve 'reavailabled' - no extra trains.

I thought we were in austerity?

Before you know it people will be suggesting building new high speed routes where peak usage is less than 50% now.....

Gowerton Village has a direct result of the redoubling,has 90 extra services calling every week has a result of extra capacity built in. Wrexham will have none has extra capacity was not asked for by WG.

 

[Olaf]

On a North Wales perspective, Three political parties have stated in the Senedd they want to see direct North Wales/Liverpool services reinstated,how many will use the service is another matter, I understand Cardiff/Liverpool via Wrexham is another aspiration,but we will need to have more of the line redoubled for extra capacity, a lesson learned by Ministers who now realise the error of dueling a line with speed the only criteria.


Suppose we have to consider the growth in rail travel in the future.

Thanks. I can understand that there will be aspirations to run new and additional services, but for NR to justify the expenditure it has until now, as far as I am aware, performed some sort of analysis on an actual requirement. I am not aware of this happening in the case of the Halton curve project.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks. I can understand that there will be aspirations to run new and additional services, but for NR to justify the expenditure it has until now, as far as I am aware, performed some sort of analysis on an actual requirement. I am not aware of this happening in the case of the Halton curve project.

It's piggy-backing on the Liverpool City Region development fund, not your usual NR/ORR/DfT BCR analysis.
Basically anything to boost growth in Liverpool, which also includes the second Mersey road bridge and other infrastructure investment.
You can regard it as rail's very small share of the overall package.
It's much easier to find capital for this sort of development than it is to find extra subsidy to run services over it.

 

[northwichcat]

Huddersfield is by-passed by the M62. Wigan is by-passed by the M6 to the west and the M61 to the east. No motorway or dual highway goes anywhere near Hereford (the M50 being the nearest).

I don't follow.

Huddersfield is 10 miles from a M62 junction while Hereford is 13 miles from a M50 junction, so not a huge difference.

If you're travelling from Abergavenny to Worcester you can by-pass Hereford (A40 and M50), going from Monmouth to Leominister you can't by-pass Hereford. However, the Motorways around Huddersfield and Wigan don't allow you to by-pass the towns if you're travelling in a different direction to the way the Motorway goes. Neither Hereford or either of the two towns I mentioned has a proper by-pass like Shrewsbury does.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's piggy-backing on the Liverpool City Region development fund, not your usual NR/ORR/DfT BCR analysis.
Basically anything to boost growth in Liverpool, which also includes the second Mersey road bridge and other infrastructure investment.
You can regard it as rail's very small share of the overall package.
It's much easier to find capital for this sort of development than it is to find extra subsidy to run services over it.

If the link is there, future extra services will be able to run,I agree its easier to find capital than revenue/subsidy.

I would note without the dynamic loop & other work on the Cambrian from Capital, the new hourly services would have been unable to run from next year.I forget when the loop was put in at Welshpool costing several £million with other work, but it has not been used for extra passenger traffic for a few years.

 

[Welshman]

I don't follow.

Huddersfield is 10 miles from a M62 junction while Hereford is 13 miles from a M50 junction, so not a huge difference.

I don't really know what contribution this is making to the argument, but Huddersfield is 3 miles from the M62 at Ainley Top and 4 miles from Outlane.

 

[Olaf]

It's piggy-backing on the Liverpool City Region development fund, not your usual NR/ORR/DfT BCR analysis.
Basically anything to boost growth in Liverpool, which also includes the second Mersey road bridge and other infrastructure investment.
You can regard it as rail's very small share of the overall package.
It's much easier to find capital for this sort of development than it is to find extra subsidy to run services over it.

OK Thanks.

 

[theshillito]

Hopefully, with the Halton curve in place, a direct service will operate from Liverpool to Cardiff via Wrexham. So, the people of Wrexham will indeed benefit by having direct services into their nearest large city instead of having to change at Chester to the slow Merseyrail service via the Wirrel

The journey time isn't much different, but you're right that direct services are more desirable in the UK since people don't trust trains to arrive at wherever they're going on-time and thus won't want to make connections.

 

[pablo]

Maybe removing the Halton curve in the first place contributed to Liverpool's decline as a port....? Pure vandalism, I call it, and so it's only right that it should be reinstated.

 

[8A Rail]

Triplicated Post!!!