North Wales Rail Services,statement from Welsh Government

[8A Rail]

Duplicated Post

 

[8A Rail]

Maybe removing the Halton curve in the first place contributed to Liverpool's decline as a port....? Pure vandalism, I call it, and so it's only right that it should be reinstated.

How do you work that out? Liverpool decline as a port years ago has nothing to do with the Halton Curve. Decline of the port happened because of the increase usage of containers which other ports took on board more quickly, also because the dockers generally would not agree to change in working practices. It is only in the last 20 years that decline has stopped and things improved. See: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/9257/port-freight-statistics-final-2011.pdf for stats but that is only until 2011 though - tonnage has increased again since then as far as I am aware.

 

[6Gman]

Maybe removing the Halton curve in the first place contributed to Liverpool's decline as a port....? Pure vandalism, I call it, and so it's only right that it should be reinstated.

That is one of the most bizarre theories I think I've ever heard! Do you know what traffic actually used the Halton Curve?

 

[Olaf]

Maybe removing the Halton curve in the first place contributed to Liverpool's decline as a port....? Pure vandalism, I call it, and so it's only right that it should be reinstated.

I think there were a few more dominant factors (in no particular order) than whatever contributions the Halton Curve might have made:

1. Impact of end of Empire - lead to a withering of trade with former tied markets over an extended period,
2. De-industrialisation - the loss of many exporters in the hinterland,
3. The oil crisis - contributed to a general collapse in the UK and other economies,
4. The shift of trade to the EU - new trade shifted to the south coast ports,
5. Automation and containerisation - reduced the requirement for man-power, and also have favoured trade to go via the major south coast container terminals,
6. Poor industrial relations - whether justified or not, the perceptions of poor labour relations sent trade via other ports.

The grounds for the Halton Curve project going ahead seem mainly about passenger traffic.

Are there any potential freight flows that would use the link?

 

[pablo]

Thank you Olaf. I've lived through all the events you mention and have seen the effects. But it got the humourless ones going. N'est pas?
It was all passenger traffic in the day. LPL - Chester mainly. Don't remember seeing any freight.

But I don't see its re-instatement as a reversion. It's more likely a prospective tentacle in the Greater Merseyside conglomeration. Liverpool's resurgence!



Edited for those that need it spelling out.

 

[8A Rail]

Thank you Olaf. I've lived through all the events you mention and have seen the effects. But it got the humourless ones going. N'est pas?
It was all passenger traffic in the day. LPL - Chester mainly. Don't remember seeing any freight.

But I don't see its re-instatement as a reversion. It's more likely a prospective tentacle in the Greater Merseyside conglomeration. Liverpool's resurgence!

Well it if was humour then can't you use the relevant "smilies" to emphasis that or dont know how too? May be just hiding behind an excuse in making the original comment to save face!

 

[Penmorfa]

The line was used by freight when it was still double track. Photo here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/8242714614/in/set-72157623902783378
If I recall correctly it was a Halewood to Severn Tunnel Junction train for Ford Motors. In recent years the line has occasionally been used by empty coal hoppers from Ellesmere Port to Garston. It was never a strategic route freight wise.

 

[merlodlliw]

post deleted,content put on Wrexham Redouble thread.

 

[8A Rail]

The line was used by freight when it was still double track. Photo here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/8242714614/in/set-72157623902783378
If I recall correctly it was a Halewood to Severn Tunnel Junction train for Ford Motors. In recent years the line has occasionally been used by empty coal hoppers from Ellesmere Port to Garston. It was never a strategic route freight wise.

Some years further back, it was used as a diversionary route for freights heading to South Liverpool during some WCML blockades. Need to check my records but around mid 90's though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Hopefully, with the Halton curve in place, a direct service will operate from Liverpool to Cardiff via Wrexham. So, the people of Wrexham will indeed benefit by having direct services into their nearest large city instead of having to change at Chester to the slow Merseyrail service via the Wirrel.

What will happen should the north Wales main-line become electrified? It surely would not get 'value' from such a scheme by having diesel powered trains on the Holyhead to Cardiff route? All the more reason to have a service from Cardiff to Liverpool in that case with electrics running to Holyhead from Manchester & Birmingham via Crewe? The Voyagers on the Euston to Holyhead run could also be transferred elsewhere to relieve overcrowded diesel routes.

I agree, Holyhead-Birmingham should go via Crewe instead of Shrewsbury if north Wales gets wires. The ERTMS 158s for the Cambrian should terminate at Wrexham or Chester rather than running through to Holyhead and the main Cardiff-Wrexham stopper services should terminate at Wrexham, Chester or Liverpool instead of reversing at Chester to goto Holyhead. Three expresses each way per day (like the orriginal Gerald, before it had stops added but with Wrexham instead of Crewe) would be plenty of through services for Holyhead-Cardiff.

So:
Gowerton redoubling - no extra trains
Wrexham redoubling - no extra trains
Halton Curve 'reavailabled' - no extra trains.

For Gowerton, I think they did introduce a handful of extra trains, but the main change was that alot more existing services now call at Gowerton station.

I'm not sure that any service from Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn is going to be that much faster than via the Wirral.

By my calculations, a service calling at Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway would take roughly 42 minutes to get from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street, while the Wirral service takes 43 minutes.

The benefit would be direct services from either North Wales or locations south of Chester.

For comparison, how long would a class 73 with mark2s (or diesel-engined London Underground stock) take to do Wrexham General - Liverpool via Bidston?

Gowerton Village has a direct result of the redoubling,has 90 extra services calling every week has a result of extra capacity built in. Wrexham will have none has extra capacity was not asked for by WG.

I thought WAG asked for capacity for one extra train per two hours? For unecessary extra Cardiff-Holyhead services, unfortunately.

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought WAG asked for capacity for one extra train per two hours? For unnecessary extra Cardiff-Holyhead services, unfortunately.

My understanding is, the redouble has it stands now,will allow only one extra train every two hours on the dual track, it was WG who suggested it should be a Cardiff/Holyhead semi fast service.
No extra capacity for freight or anything else is built in.

 

[berneyarms]

For comparison, how long would a class 73 with mark2s (or diesel-engined London Underground stock) take to do Wrexham General - Liverpool via Bidston?

No idea - what is the relevance of that?

All I was doing was giving an estimate using current running times.

 

[pablo]

........For comparison, how long would a class 73 with mark2s ............. take to do Wrexham General - Liverpool via Bidston?.

Funny you should mention that. I suggested similar to BR c1970s, and for the Chester service too. Got the brush-off. Only electrified to Rock Ferry in them thar days.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No idea - what is the relevance of that?

All I was doing was giving an estimate using current running times.

If I understood correctly, you were comparing the journey times for two different routes between Chester and Liverpool. I was wondering how the journey time for the third possible route compares with those two.

 

[berneyarms]

If I understood correctly, you were comparing the journey times for two different routes between Chester and Liverpool. I was wondering how the journey time for the third possible route compares with those two.

Yes I was, using current running times from www.realtimetrains.co.uk - I'm not able to tell you what they'd be with specific rolling stock.

However, Wrexham General-Bidston takes 58 minutes. From there to Lime Street currently takes another 17 minutes.

That's 1 hour 17 minutes allowing for a 2 minute stop at Bidston.

Wrexham General-Chester takes 17 minutes, so either of the options from Chester to Liverpool would be faster.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes I was, using current running times from www.realtimetrains.co.uk - I'm not able to tell you what they'd be with specific rolling stock.

However, Wrexham General-Bidston takes 58 minutes. From there to Lime Street currently takes another 17 minutes.

That's 1 hour 17 minutes allowing for a 2 minute stop at Bidston.

Wrexham General-Chester takes 17 minutes, so either of the options from Chester to Liverpool would be faster.

Thanks, that answered my query.