Incident at Banbury

[jimm]

An update from the Oxford Mail:

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11474885.Police_fire_Taser_at_man_to_end_rail_station_stand_off/

 

[ushawk]

Foot crossings - jackpot.
Thanks for the insights

PS: Daily Mail? nooo - they believe in deference to authority

As said, the area was rural, so chances are you probably wouldnt get phone signal either.

The idiocy on this topic is unbelievable, unfortunately - its all from you. When the BTP pick you up and your in court being prosecuted, what would you defence be ?

Similarly, if you encouraged fellow passengers to detrain and one of this passengers was to be hit by a train on a reopened line - how would that make you feel ?

The "ME" mentality in effect, people only thinking of themselves.

 

[O L Leigh]

Tomnick: I understand now. I thought you were referring to the prat up the bracket rather than the great unwashed leaking out of stranded trains.

As for the BTP taking possession, again I apologise for my terminology. What I meant was taking a block on the affected lines, which I understand the BTP are authorised to do.

O L Leigh

 

[Darandio]

When the BTP pick you up and your in court being prosecuted, what would you defence be ?

Possibly they believe that they don't need one. Earlier in the thread they said the following with confidence....

I still reckon I could talk a jury round or get the charges dropped though

 

[EM2]

This is all very well, emphasising the dangers, trespass etc - but everyone is very short on action. All I read is that everyone just has to wait.

There's only so much time that people will wait before they feel it necessary to safeguard their own health/sanity by taking action themselves.

Just how long should anybody wait for help to be provided - 1 hour, 2 hours, 15 hours ?. There have been similar incidents before where help was sadly lacking.

Strange how no-one detrains themsleves unless the sun's out.
Didn't see anyone bailing from this one:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/pass...freezing-train-all-night-in-snow-6542236.html

Passengers stranded on a freezing train all night in snow

Passengers told today how they were forced to sleep overnight on a broken-down train and wrapped themselves in piles of clothes to keep warm.
The Southeastern service was so badly affected by snow that some commuters were still stuck on the tracks near Orpington by mid-morning.

Passengers on the train from Charing Cross to Hastings used every scrap of spare clothing they could find to keep warm with little light or heat after the power failed at around 10.30pm.

 

[Tomnick]

Tomnick: I understand now. I thought you were referring to the prat up the bracket rather than the great unwashed leaking out of stranded trains.

As for the BTP taking possession, again I apologise for my terminology. What I meant was taking a block on the affected lines, which I understand the BTP are authorised to do.

O L Leigh

No problem, all understood! Yes, it's fairly common for Plod to arrange a block, or sometimes just a caution, via Control - I've never had the pleasure myself, but I believe that it's usually a fairly informal process.

 

[talltim]

People detraining may be doing themselves and their fellow passengers no favours, but the railway needs to allow for the fact that they may do in their incident planning and the risk needs to be calculated, presumably on a logarithmic scale related to time. At the moment there appears to be no planning to reduce the risk of it happening, it just seems to be a case of ignoring it and repeating, "detraining is trespass and illegal, it won't happen"

 

[midlandred]

Someone who suffers from severe claustrophobia will not want to be "trapped" in a carriage for hour upon hour, with no known timescale, but if they could exit the train, with no desire to move away from the site, possibly under the watch of train crew, would this be grounds for prosecution for trespass, as it could obviate problems for fellow passengers from the sufferer?

 

[dannypye9999]

i think if its a complete stoppage, and on a non-electrified route there should be few objections to passengers walking along the rails to the nearest station either. Let them take one traincrew member as a guide if needs be. Holding people up for several hours in a small train isn't ideal.

In those circumstances I'd have hit the button and decamped within an hour. With or without permission.

Reminds me of the Congleton incident a few years ago where a car rolled down an embankment onto the track. I was held up on this train, the 17.35 VT Manchester to Euston got caught up just about a mile after leaving Macclesfield, about 6.45pm the lights were switched off, still 11.30pm and not moving and in total darkness!! Staff and police were refusing to let people off and walk the short distance along the line back to Macclesfield even though the overhead wires were switched off which had left everyone on the train without power and with it being mid-December wasn't helping either.

 

[Rugd1022]

Living in Banbury and hearing yesterday every bit of nonsense from it was a woman throwing herself through a window at the station to someone sat on top of Banbury North signal box I would like to make the following comments

Attatched is a photo of where the 0727 Manchester - Bournemouth was held for about four and three quarter hours yesterday (the signal which the class 66 has just passed) The bridge from where the photo was taken is approx 200 yards from the signal and was the only way into the town pedestrians could use after the police closed Bridge St to stop people gawping at what was going on . Its not exactly in the middle of nowhere - not getting into the rights and wrongs of people being held on the trains it made me wonder how long is it acceptable to hold people on a train - nearly 5 hours or if it had gone on another 5 hours would they still be on the train - who makes the decision?


Of course if this had happened years ago with slam door stock I dare say some of them would soon have got off even if they were told not to

Hi Didcot - just to put this right, the bridge you were standing on to take your (rather good) photo is way more than 200 yards away, I sign the route and it's a fair old distance (which I have walked more than once). 200 yards is the distance between the AWS magnet and the signal gantry at the top left of your shot.... I hope that puts it all in perspective

 

[didcot]

Hi Didcot - just to put this right, the bridge you were standing on to take your (rather good) photo is way more than 200 yards away, I sign the route and it's a fair old distance (which I have walked more than once). 200 yards is the distance between the AWS magnet and the signal gantry at the top left of your shot.... I hope that puts it all in perspective

Yes cant disagree with you looking at it again - still not what I would call in the middle of no where though!

 

[455driver]

The Rule Book only requires a caution if it's considered that the trespassers is either a danger to traffic or is in danger himself, otherwise it's normal working. Why would I, or anyone else, be up on a manslaughter charge for following an approved (and no doubt heavily risk assessed) method of working?

I suppose with Diesels then that would be the case, but I work in 3rd rail land so the trains are stopped so the conrail can be discharged to stop the berk electrocuting himself. I was thinking about personal experience which probably wouldnt apply in other parts of the Country.

I wonder if some smart arse would try to 'get' the signaller in Court if some berk who had detrained was hit and killed by a train?

 

[Trog]

Yes cant disagree with you looking at it again - still not what I would call in the middle of no where though!

Road rail access point under the two red signals, with the signalman's permission you could drive a minibus almost right up to the train if you wanted to. So as to take off people with an urgent need to go, or to re-supply the train, for the comfort of the passengers still on board. Just having someone turn up with water, tea and biscuits would at least make it look as if something was being done.

 

[Tomnick]

I suppose with Diesels then that would be the case, but I work in 3rd rail land so the trains are stopped so the conrail can be discharged to stop the berk electrocuting himself. I was thinking about personal experience which probably wouldnt apply in other parts of the Country.

I wonder if some smart arse would try to 'get' the signaller in Court if some berk who had detrained was hit and killed by a train?

Yes, things would be rather different in that strange part of the world with too many rails . Other than that, though, the signalman should be able to sleep easy as long as he's working in accordance with the Rules & Regs - the only dubious bit is making the decision as to whether they're in danger (stop and caution) or not (normal running). If in any doubt, I'll err on the side of caution!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I wonder if some smart arse would try to 'get' the signaller in Court if some berk who had detrained was hit and killed by a train?

It's quite possible that an inquest would be held and the signaller invited in such a situation, yes. Would the coroner count as a smart arse in that case?

 

[strowger]

Staff and police were refusing to let people off and walk the short distance along the line back to Macclesfield even though the overhead wires were switched off which had left everyone on the train without power and with it being mid-December wasn't helping either.

How many police, how many staff, how many passengers, and by what means were they preventing exit?

I obviously don't advocate that anyone break the law, but I find it extremely difficult to understand the mentality of sheep-like people who would remain on a stranded train for hours with civilization such a short walk away.

 

[Robertj21a]

Road rail access point under the two red signals, with the signalman's permission you could drive a minibus almost right up to the train if you wanted to. So as to take off people with an urgent need to go, or to re-supply the train, for the comfort of the passengers still on board. Just having someone turn up with water, tea and biscuits would at least make it look as if something was being done.

Thank you, a common sense, helpful answer at last. I wonder just how long it would have taken to achieve that simple task.

 

[Jonny]

The idiocy on this topic is unbelievable, unfortunately - its all from you. When the BTP pick you up and your in court being prosecuted, what would you defence be ?

I can think of a few - some ECHR-based, some not.

Necessity - being held on a train is tantamount to kidnapping? OK this one could be counteracted but poor communication could count in the defence's favour.

Serious adverse conditions on board the train - article 3 of the ECHR (prohibition of torture), especially for susceptible individuals and/or if conditions have deteriorated to the point of being a public nuisance (English Common Law).

Also, there might be a case for at least opening the doors on a hot day with the train standing still with no air conditioning or an air-con failure, when it reaches the point of being a threat to health and life, or a point at which a reasonable person would perceive such a risk. It would be harder to argue regarding non-station disembarkment though.

Similar issues could also apply if extremes of cold represented a risk of hypothermia and civilisation was nearby. This would be couched in Article 2 (right to life) and Article 3 (prohibition of torture) of the ECHR, with the other option being necessity and/or self defence (depending on the perceived level of threat to life and health).

In other words, it is actually a defensible situation. Personally though I would rather not be the test case.

 

[Tomnick]

It's quite possible that an inquest would be held and the signaller invited in such a situation, yes. Would the coroner count as a smart arse in that case?

Being invited to the inquest is rather different to facing a manslaughter charge, though, if the agreed - and risk assessed, by someone else - procedures have been correctly followed.

 

[455driver]

It's quite possible that an inquest would be held and the signaller invited in such a situation, yes. Would the coroner count as a smart arse in that case?

No he wouldnt, I was thinking more about our wonderful legal profession!


Dont you just love the way the usual suspects post additions to post so they can bend things double!

 

[alastair]

As said, the area was rural, so chances are you probably wouldnt get phone signal either.

The idiocy on this topic is unbelievable, unfortunately - its all from you. When the BTP pick you up and your in court being prosecuted, what would you defence be ?

Similarly, if you encouraged fellow passengers to detrain and one of this passengers was to be hit by a train on a reopened line - how would that make you feel ?

The "ME" mentality in effect, people only thinking of themselves.

As a matter of interest,are you aware of any known cases where a passenger has abandoned a stranded train and then been prosecuted by the BTP,and if so what happened to them?

 

[Phil H]

Are the people on this thread for real. Mental illness is still quite taboo in this country. When you have depression, you can do things that are quite irrational and often you don't realise you have it until the symptoms are quite advanced. Some people may want to quietly commit suicide, but something like this is clearly a plea for help.
So you've had inconvenience and missed the trains you wanted to see or whatever you were travelling to. Were any of those things ore important than someone's life.
The need to collect train numbers could be classed as OCD which is a type of mental illness....
So long as the train operator is doing all it reasonably can and updating you in a timely manner, then what more can be done.


It's like the train hitting cars / people threads where there is always some twonk saying things like why in the newspaper photo isn't the policeman wearing an orange high viz instead of his yellow, yet someone has died or whatever.

 

[swj99]

As a matter of interest,are you aware of any known cases where a passenger has abandoned a stranded train and then been prosecuted by the BTP,and if so what happened to them?

I asked this question on a previous topic in which the subject of detraining was discussed, but no-one came up with any cases.

 

[jon91]

Are the people on this thread for real. Mental illness is still quite taboo in this country. When you have depression, you can do things that are quite irrational and often you don't realise you have it until the symptoms are quite advanced. Some people may want to quietly commit suicide, but something like this is clearly a plea for help.
So you've had inconvenience and missed the trains you wanted to see or whatever you were travelling to. Were any of those things ore important than someone's life..

The armchair mental health experts are everywhere, usually they're people that haven't had the slightest experience with mental health issues and think 'common sense' will fix everything. I have to take medication for panic attacks and its amazing how many folk say I shouldn't take things seriously and should relax more. Funny, if that worked as well as these 'experts' think then I wouldn't have to take tablets everyday...

 

[455driver]

The armchair mental health experts are everywhere, usually they're people that haven't had the slightest experience with mental health issues and think 'common sense' will fix everything.

Just like all the exspurts on here that know my job better than me even though the closest they have got to it is playing TrainSim!

My 'issues' are the way that when somebody does something stupid all you lot jump up and down saying "oh they must have been ill" etc, when 95% of the time they are just being stupid, oh I suppose stupidity is a form of mental illness isnt it! :roll:

 

[O L Leigh]

The armchair mental health experts are everywhere, usually they're people that haven't had the slightest experience with mental health issues and think 'common sense' will fix everything. I have to take medication for panic attacks and its amazing how many folk say I shouldn't take things seriously and should relax more. Funny, if that worked as well as these 'experts' think then I wouldn't have to take tablets everyday...

Isn't it strange how the opinions and warnings of railway experts are so routinely pooh-poohed by the armchair experts so prevalent here.

455Driver: Touche, old man. There's only one person whose opinion I care about, and that's my manager.

I will continue to do my job as set down by the rules and my company's policies, putting safety first to the best of my abilities. If people don't like it they can write to the Daily Mail and complain because I know that I can defend my actions against any accusations levelled against me by some armchair railwayman, no matter what spurious pieces of legislation are quoted.

[/Rant]

O L Leigh

 

[Saint66]

Just like all the exspurts on here that know my job better than me even though the closest they have got to it is playing TrainSim!

My 'issues' are the way that when somebody does something stupid (the dopy cow at Datchet yesterday for one) all you lot jump up and down saying "oh they must have been ill" etc, when 95% of the time they are just being stupid, oh I suppose stupidity is a form of mental illness isnt it! :roll:

To be fair, this Banbury incident involved someone stabbing/cutting themselves with a knife didn't it? I don't think a normal 'sane' person would be doing that. (Not having a go at you, just think it's probably a bit different)

 

[455driver]

To be fair, this Banbury incident involved someone stabbing/cutting themselves with a knife didn't it? I don't think a normal 'sane' person would be doing that. (Not having a go at you, just think it's probably a bit different)

In the Banbury case I agree 100% with you. There is no way it would have been safe to walk people past him just in case he jumped off the signalpost and ran into the crowd flailing the knife around, okay its unlikely but in this particular case there was a small chance of it happening so nobody moving was the right thing to do.

But it is all the namby pambying and pandering to the idiots we do in this Country that winds people up. By all means take safe guards but can have some middle ground (where possible) please.

 

[jon91]

Just like all the exspurts on here that know my job better than me even though the closest they have got to it is playing TrainSim!

My 'issues' are the way that when somebody does something stupid (the dopy cow at Datchet yesterday for one) all you lot jump up and down saying "oh they must have been ill" etc, when 95% of the time they are just being stupid, oh I suppose stupidity is a form of mental illness isnt it! :roll:

I take that you have the 95% figure from some kind of verifiable research? From what I, and several others on this thread, can see the person involved in the incident at Banbury was quite clearly mentally unstable. Unless you'd like to prove otherwise by climbing a signal post and playing a game of five finger fillet with a scalpel...

 

[455driver]

Read the post above yours! :roll: