Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Try this, I've not used the electrification masts section before, but the ELR stuff is amazing. Would appreciate your comments on it:
http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/mast_prefix.shtm

Very illuminating.
So G is basically Glasgow (ie Euston-Glasgow, the WCML), with Gx indicating branches off it.
Hence HG for Huyton-WCML. The inverse GH is in Glasgow.
However, further down, Huyton-Springs Branch is shown as LW.

There is also LH for Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Hull, but this clashes with LM for Liverpool-Manchester.
There are some LH masts around Leeds apparently, from the ECML scheme.

Like signal prefixes, there are duplications, some quite close geographically.
LM seems to apply to the CLC route at Hunts Cross as well as Chat Moss.

 

[CAF397]

I was always told the British Rail era gantry ID plates were so labelled away from London terminals.


E - Kings Cross ECML
F - St Pancras MML
G - Euston WCML

i'm not sure what Fenchurch Street & Liverpool Street are.

 

[Ploughman]

If working Anti clockwise then A, B or C would be a guess.
Any ideas as to what they are actually?

 

[Bevan Price]

The Network Rail website is still talking about completion of Liverpool - Manchester/Wigan electrification by December 2014. But New Year is now only about 16 weeks away.

Given the observations on progress & outstanding work between Edge Hill & Earlestown and Huyton & Springs Branch Jn, does anyone have a view whether it's likely to be finished on schedule?

For Huyton - Springs Branch, does it matter if it is completed by December 2014 ? They won't have any emus to operate to Wigan until well into 2015.

 

[swt_passenger]

If working Anti clockwise then A, B or C would be a guess.
Any ideas as to what they are actually?

A = Fenchurch St - Shoeburyness
B = Liverpool St - Norwich (and some in Glasgow)
C = Bethnal Green to Kings Lynn

But D is a real oddball, seemingly being being reserved for the SW/NE XC axis from Cogload Jn to Rotherham via Birmingham (in summary). But possibly enough to disprove the 'anticlockwise' rule?

All this is as listed in that site linked to just a few posts ago...

 

[Bald Rick]

But D is a real oddball, seemingly being being reserved for the SW/NE XC axis from Cogload Jn to Rotherham via Birmingham (in summary). But possibly enough to disprove the 'anticlockwise' rule?

Bit like the M5. In the right sector most of the way, but at the wrong angle.

 

[swt_passenger]

Bit like the M5. In the right sector most of the way, but at the wrong angle.

Funny you should say that. Someone perhaps asked firstly, how does it work on the roads, and secondly how can we screw up our system similarly without appearing to directly copy it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For Huyton - Springs Branch, does it matter if it is completed by December 2014 ? They won't have any emus to operate to Wigan until well into 2015.

It matters if the delays knock on to later phases.
Delay usually means cost increases which also knocks on to other schemes.

 

[Springs Branch]

For Huyton - Springs Branch, does it matter if it is completed by December 2014 ? They won't have any emus to operate to Wigan until well into 2015.

Out of interest, have there been any cases in the past where a line has been electrified and the brand-new infrastructure has sat unused for months on end because there were no electric trains to operate it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Out of interest, have there been any cases in the past where a line has been electrified and the brand-new infrastructure has sat unused for months on end because there were no electric trains to operate it?

St Pancras/Moorgate to Bedford.
The unions blacked the new 317s for a year because they opposed Driver Only Operation.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1983/feb/21/bedford-st-pancras-railway-line
Admittedly it was not because of a shortage of stock.

 

[edwin_m]

ECML electrification north of Peterborough wouldn't have got much use until it was completed at least to Leeds.

 

[HSTEd]

BedPan electrification for £154m in 1982......

In today's money that is ~£390m, and includes 192 carriages - which would just about eat the entire budget by itself now (something north of £290m for the stock alone) let alone something like 200 track miles of electrification and complete resignallling, and a new station.

 

[PDG1949]

Whilst searching for info on mast plates I happened to come across this NR presentation on Autotransformer feeding on the WCML power supply upgrade

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...3cKK3At6ANhIayhlwz_WUiQ&bvm=bv.74649129,d.bGQ

 

[snowball]

Thanks, that's brilliant!

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, that's brilliant!

Agree with that - a copy saved could save a lot of debate in the future...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Whilst searching for info on mast plates I happened to come across this NR presentation on Autotransformer feeding on the WCML power supply upgrade

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...3cKK3At6ANhIayhlwz_WUiQ&bvm=bv.74649129,d.bGQ

Thanks, that's brilliant!

Agree with that - a copy saved could save a lot of debate in the future...

Agree, agree and agree THANKS

 

[LDECRexile]

Whilst searching for info on mast plates I happened to come across this NR presentation on Autotransformer feeding on the WCML power supply upgrade

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...3cKK3At6ANhIayhlwz_WUiQ&bvm=bv.74649129,d.bGQ

Seriously fab. Thank you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks, that's brilliant!

It is indeed.
I'm presuming that the southern WCML AT system (Wembley to Whitmore) is operational, and the northern section (Betley Road-Great Strickland) is going in now (hence the new kit at Springs Branch).
None of that tells us when the Manchester-Liverpool AT will go live, though.
Electric traffic won't be significant for quite a while - probably not until TP North is ready.

 

[edwin_m]

Electric traffic won't be significant for quite a while - probably not until TP North is ready.

Won't the Liverpool-Manair semi-fast and Liverpool-Manchester and Liverpool-Warrington stoppers go over to EMU as soon as this route is completed and 319s are available? That's 2-and-a-half out of the 3-and-two-halves trains that use the route every hour (the halves referring to joining/leaving at Earlestown).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Won't the Liverpool-Manair semi-fast and Liverpool-Manchester and Liverpool-Warrington stoppers go over to EMU as soon as this route is completed and 319s are available? That's 2-and-a-half out of the 3-and-two-halves trains that use the route every hour (the halves referring to joining/leaving at Earlestown).

Yes, but they are insignificant trains in perms of power requirements compared to Pendolinos and Class 92 freights on the WCML.
Running 4tph 4-car 319s is no different to (say) the Birmingham Cross-City line, which doesn't need AT operation.
The maximum load at the moment is when a couple of 8-car 350s pass on the Chat Moss route, and that is pretty rare.
I expect NR has sized it for Pendolino workings at one end of the line or the other (irregular at best), plus electric freight (none in prospect), plus the baseline NT/TP services post-Northern Hub and TP wiring.

 

[The Planner]

If they have worked it out in the same way other electrification power supplies are then it will be based on what is expected in 2043, which is slightly finger in the air but the best that can be done.

 

[Class 170101]

Yes, but they are insignificant trains in perms of power requirements compared to Pendolinos and Class 92 freights on the WCML.
Running 4tph 4-car 319s is no different to (say) the Birmingham Cross-City line, which doesn't need AT operation.
The maximum load at the moment is when a couple of 8-car 350s pass on the Chat Moss route, and that is pretty rare.
I expect NR has sized it for Pendolino workings at one end of the line or the other (irregular at best), plus electric freight (none in prospect), plus the baseline NT/TP services post-Northern Hub and TP wiring.

Haven't Pendolinos already been tested between Manchester and Wigan on this route. I thought two tested to pass some months back.

In any event the Manchester to Liverpool route would be a diversionary route for Pendolinos in passenger mode between Liverpool / Manchester and Crewe and between Liverpool and Manchester for ECS moves rather than currently running via Crewe to reach either Longsight or Edge Hill from the Preston direction as they do today.

 

[STANDISH]

Yes they have tested two trains at the same during the night. Also one train in normal service ,when there was an incident in the Warrington area. There could be other trains which have been diverted?

 

[The Planner]

Yes they have been tested, they will do the same between Earlestown and Edge Hill when its finished.

 

[driver_m]

This thing about the Pendos taking too much power can easily be solved by putting out a notice to us pendo drivers to take less power in the event of a diversion. There's currently one for going via the west midlands diversion via Bescot and Aston, and has previously occurred at the southern end of the WCML on occasions. Not hard to organise now with gsm-r. There's not likely to be more than two drawing power on the liverpool end anyway.

 

[Class 170101]

Perfectly possible to issue notices to reduce power draw. Springfield Feeder Station Chelmsford was switched out for an evening peak (some while back now) due to a fire on adjacent land with emergency feeding from Shenfield and Manningtree. Drivers of Class 90 sets were instructed not to go beyond notch 3 on the power controller due to power limitations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wiring has begun between Ordsall Lane and Victoria.
A single run of earth wire is now up between Ordsall Lane and Salford Central.

Edit Update:
A new run of return wire is up past the Pilkingtons site west of St Helens Central, about a mile long.
All the mast sections now appear to be up near Victoria, although there are still some portal sections missing.
Mast count between Sankey Viaduct and Earlestown station now up to 4.
There are about 8 new mast bases over about half a mile between Wavertree station and the Wavertree Road overbridge, interspersed with the old masts.
All this section must be being rewired.
I counted 10 mast bases on the north side of the layout between Huyton Jn and Roby Jn.
Still impossible to visualise how this stretch will be wired, and what changes will be needed later for the 4th track.
The Balfour Beatty wiring train was parked up at Edge Hill, loaded with copper wire.

 

[DJH1971]

Wiring has begun between Ordsall Lane and Victoria.
A single run of earth wire is now up between Ordsall Lane and Salford Central.

Brilliant news!

 

[LDECRexile]

Wiring has begun between Ordsall Lane and Victoria.
A single run of earth wire is now up between Ordsall Lane and Salford Central.

Edit Update:
A new run of return wire is up past the Pilkingtons site west of St Helens Central, about a mile long.
All the mast sections now appear to be up near Victoria, although there are still some portal sections missing.
Mast count between Sankey Viaduct and Earlestown station now up to 4.
There are about 8 new mast bases over about half a mile between Wavertree station and the Wavertree Road overbridge, interspersed with the old masts.
All this section must be being rewired.
I counted 10 mast bases on the north side of the layout between Huyton Jn and Roby Jn.
Still impossible to visualise how this stretch will be wired, and what changes will be needed later for the 4th track.
The Balfour Beatty wiring train was parked up at Edge Hill, loaded with copper wire.

Man Vic wire is splendid news.

I toured Lime St-Wigan NW-Roby-Earlestown-Lime St today.

I made it seven masts between Sankey Viaduct and Earlestown, 3 on the North side, 4 on the South. Maybe I had double vision?

I agree all your other observations.

I could only see one missing and one possibly missing base on the South side between Huyton Station and Huyton Quarry, and that could be because the base is down the side of a section of steep embankment. If I'm right then the base piling activity discussed recently seems to have taken place.

On the North side of the same stretch I think some new bases have appeared.

I can't see any bases on the North side of Track 4 between Roby Jct and Roby Station, can anyone see any from the playing fields?

Several previously mastless bases dotted around the project now carry metal, eg North side of the North end of St Helens Central Station and off the North side of Lea Green Station.

Power wires now reach beyond Ince Moss Junction over the southbound track. Several new signals between Carr Mill and Springs Branch Jct look complete, one bagged, the others lying down.

New seats and a waiting shelter have been erected at Bryn, northbound platform. The shelter was being glazed as I passed.

I couldn't see any evidence of electrification work or preparation work on Earlestown (main line) or Rainhill stations (though the paint job at Earlestown looks good.)

Nor could I see anything on the major viaducts.

An Orange Team were laying ducting behind the fence of the eastbound platform at Wavertree Technology Park Station.

Roby lifts not yet working, but contain workings. Seats have been installed in Platform 2/3 waiting shelter.

I have added nine photos here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110155...rification20134?authkey=Gv1sRgCNmM9tLBtNTlgAE

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I made it seven masts between Sankey Viaduct and Earlestown, 3 on the North side, 4 on the South. Maybe I had double vision?

No, you are right, I only did the south side there today (Lime St-Manchester-Wigan-Lime St).
I find it difficult to count separate things on each hand at the same time.
Nice pictures.