30 new Desiros for SWT

[theblackwatch]

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2014/2014-09-03.aspx

Plans for a £210m fleet of new trains to benefit passengers on the UK’s busiest commuter rail franchise moved forward today (3 September 2014) as South West Trains announced its intention to award the contract to manufacturer Siemens and leasing company Angel Trains.

The 30 new five-carriage Desiro City trains will boost capacity on services at South West Trains, providing for more than 18,000 extra peak-time passengers every day travelling into London Waterloo, the country’s busiest station. The train order will also allow for a further 6,000 daily peak-time passengers once infrastructure upgrades are completed on the mainline and Hounslow loop.

Siemen's booklet for the 'Desiro City' can be downloaded from http://w3.siemens.co.uk/mobility/uk...desiro_city/Documents/desiro-city-booklet.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

30x5-car Desiro City sets, seemingly without inter-unit gangways, to be used on Windsor Line services from 2017.
I presume they will be in high-density format.
Should set an interesting precedent for other TOC EMU purchases during CP5.
Sliding pocket doors apparently, in the artist impression, like class 700.

 

[Monty]

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2014/2014-09-03.aspx

Will be interesting to see how different these units will be (apart from length of course) from the Thameslink units. I wonder if Siemens will design a different cab with a gangway considering SWT's constant requirements to attach and divide trains?

It will also nice to know if any backwards compatibility will be built in to these units to allow them to couple up with the existing 450/444 fleet, even if it's in emergencies only.

 

[Y186520]

Good news.

This has been a bit of an open secret for a while now.

What a shame they went down the 458 / 456 route rather than desiro cities.
Would an order for desiro cities, if placed when they started talking about it,
have been completed ahead of the Thameslink fleet ?

 

[Deepgreen]

I wish SWT would decide which is the "country's busiest station" - they claim Clapham Junction on the huge signs there, but Waterloo in Press releases.

 

[455driver]

I wish SWT would decide which is the "country's busiest station" - they claim Clapham Junction on the huge signs there, but Waterloo in Press releases.

Clapham jn has the most trains passing through it, Waterloo has the most passengers passing through it!
So they are both correct.

 

[jopsuk]

Open secret, as has been said- this will mean the 458s returning to the Reading route (1st class reinstated) and the Reading 450s to strengthen SWML services

 

[Class377/5]

Will be interesting to see how different these units will be (apart from length of course) from the Thameslink units. I wonder if Siemens will design a different cab with a gangway considering SWT's constant requirements to attach and divide trains?

It will also nice to know if any backwards compatibility will be built in to these units to allow them to couple up with the existing 450/444 fleet, even if it's in emergencies only.

Id assume they can couple to the existing fleet as the 700s are able to do emergency coupling to an Electrostar.

I suspect the 2+2 form will stay from the 700s especially as that's how the 458/5 are.

 

[JonathanH]

Open secret, as has been said- this will mean the 458s returning to the Reading route (1st class reinstated) and the Reading 450s to strengthen SWML services

Does that mean 450s on some suburban services? Perhaps the Guildford via Cobham or Woking slows?

455+455+456 on the other main line side suburban services with 450s back on Guildford to Ascot?

 

[physics34]

they should just take back the 442s and use the 444s on metro stuff

 

[Clip]

Good news.

This has been a bit of an open secret for a while now.

What a shame they went down the 458 / 456 route rather than desiro cities.
Would an order for desiro cities, if placed when they started talking about it,
have been completed ahead of the Thameslink fleet ?

Im never quite up to date with train class numbers but am I missing something here ?

The 30 new five-carriage Desiro City trains

*plus Ill give it up to 10 posts before the inevitable.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Sounds like good news for the Windsor commuters, and it'll be interesting to see a train pootle out of Waterloo without corridor connectors.

*plus Ill give it up to 10 posts before the inevitable.

I'll be optimistic and say 15.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that this order must be directly related to the Reading-Waterloo train lengthening project (8 to 10 cars) that I've attached.

 

[Class377/5]

Im never quite up to date with train class numbers but am I missing something here ?

*plus Ill give it up to 10 posts before the inevitable.

Desiro Cities are the new generational train from Siemens. The first order was for the class 700s for Thameslink.

It looks like these will be 5 car variants of the Thameslink order now being built.

 

[RobShipway]

Sounds like good news for the Windsor commuters, and it'll be interesting to see a train pootle out of Waterloo without corridor connectors.





I'll be optimistic and say 15.

I would give 14 posts myself....

There is at the moment until there are rebuilt 458/0 working on the Waterloo - Reading route. If the 458's are coming back as 458/5's to be 10 coach trains, then okay. But I just hope that they have improved the suspension on the 458's when they become 458/5's especially when they go over any junctions.

 

[swt_passenger]

30x5-car Desiro City sets, seemingly without inter-unit gangways,

Is that just going by the 'artists impression' in the press release, or some other info? I'd be very surprised if they don't go for a gangwayed version, primarily because there are still stations with SDO on the relevant routes to be operated.

 

[387star]

Hang on so Windsor line has gone from 455s to 450s to 458/5s to these new ones from 2017!

How will stock be cascaded?

 

[Clip]

Desiro Cities are the new generational train from Siemens. The first order was for the class 700s for Thameslink.

It looks like these will be 5 car variants of the Thameslink order now being built.

Yes but the poster was asking why they went for something else instead of the desiro cities....

 

[387star]

Open secret, as has been said- this will mean the 458s returning to the Reading route (1st class reinstated) and the Reading 450s to strengthen SWML services

Ah thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Will this stop the useless 158 on the lymington branch?

Why can't redbridge junction to Salisbury/ Eastleigh to Romsey via chandlers be electrified as a precedent to electrifying Basingstoke to Exeter? Guess third rail being out of favour doesn't help

 

[Darandio]

Yes but the poster was asking why they went for something else instead of the desiro cities....

Hopefully someone will clarify as it has me completely baffled.

 

[WatcherZero]

Governments given a press release and made a statement to Parliament.

They are issuing a deed of variation to their franchise agreement so they can keep their existing stock, no external cascade.

New trains are for Waterloo services and will be a Thameslink variant.
In addition released stock will form 2 new mainline services from May 2018 starting from Woking and from Basingstoke and 4 additional peak trains from Hounslow also May 2018.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hang on so Windsor line has gone from 455s to 450s to 458/5s to these new ones from 2017!

How will stock be cascaded?

Ignoring 455s for a moment as that's pretty much history,

450/5s from Windsor/Hounslow Weybridge reverted to normal state with FC and will be gradually transferred to the Reading Route, and elsewhere on SWT network. (This is basically still to happen due the 458/5 delays.)

458/0s from Reading route transferred to Windsor etc routes in 5 car formation. (Still happening due to aforementioned delays.)

in 2017/18

70X arrive on Windsors etc, in 5 car formation to replace 458/5s.

458/5s go back to the Reading route, presumably with first class re-instated - (see previous posts about 458/5 conversion retaining suitable areas adjacent to cabs - discussed in the main 458/5 thread).

450s from Reading route then become available for strengthening services over the wider SWT network, and some extra services as already mentioned.

No evidence that any units will be released from the franchise at this stage, although I'd be surprised if a couple of 158s didn't end up being surplus in the long term.

 

[Class377/5]

Is that just going by the 'artists impression' in the press release, or some other info? I'd be very surprised if they don't go for a gangwayed version, primarily because there are still stations with SDO on the relevant routes to be operated.

There is this shot...

Desiro City for SWT by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

Yes but the poster was asking why they went for something else instead of the desiro cities....

Well Desiro Cities was one off the units offered along with a rebuilt 455 offering. The Desiro UK (185/350/444/450 are variants of that design) are no longer being built.

 

[southern442]

http://www.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2014/2014-09-03.aspx


Siemen's booklet for the 'Desiro City' can be downloaded from http://w3.siemens.co.uk/mobility/uk...desiro_city/Documents/desiro-city-booklet.pdf

Why oh why oh why didn't they just order these in the first place! It would've saved all the kerfuffle with the 458's! :roll:

 

[Class377/5]

Why oh why oh why didn't they just order these in the first place! It would've saved all the kerfuffle with the 458's! :roll:

Because they need the 458/5 and these units too. Remember the 458 won a separate capacity upgrade on costs and new build Desiro Cities lost.

 

[RobShipway]

Why oh why oh why didn't they just order these in the first place! It would've saved all the kerfuffle with the 458's! :roll:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But I do agree that Class 450's should have been ordered back in 1998, rather than the Alstom class 458's and by now we would have a TOC just running Siemens trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why oh why oh why didn't they just order these in the first place! It would've saved all the kerfuffle with the 458's! :roll:

I don't think it necessarily would have. If new 5 car units had gone straight onto the Windsor route under the CP4 HLOS plans, the problem would now be that they would still either want to extend the 458/0s from 4 car to 5 car for use on the 10 car Reading service, and the only obvious way to do that would be with ex 460 vehicles; or they'd again be looking at extending a 30 car sub-fleet of 450 Desiros with an extra car - and IIRC people keep telling us that Desiro UK additional cars can no longer be manufactured.

The main point though is it is pretty easy to combine all the rolling stock projects with hindsight, but the ITTs for the CP4 and CP5 parts were issued about four years apart. At the time of the first ITT, 10 car Reading services were still stuck in someone's crystal ball...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is that just going by the 'artists impression' in the press release, or some other info? I'd be very surprised if they don't go for a gangwayed version, primarily because there are still stations with SDO on the relevant routes to be operated.

No, just on the "photos".
You'd have thought they would have drawn gangways if they were part of the spec.
There's a second picture on the Siemens site: http://www.siemens.co.uk/en/news_pr...in-order-for-uks-busiest-commuter-network.htm

 

[Bigfoot]

Why oh why oh why didn't they just order these in the first place! It would've saved all the kerfuffle with the 458's! :roll:

Because it was initially cheaper to extend 458s and bring in the 456s. However it is now becoming one a laughing stock and secondly a very much more expensive option. Many are regretting the cheaper option after all siemens could have been pretty much delivering the Desiro cities to swt already. Ah well. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

In 10 years time I see a big order for 5 and maybe 10 car fixed formation 7xx being ordered to replace the life expired swt 455s. Oh and I can't wait. Awful trains! Before I am slated they are of different time. Good at the time of introduction, however modernisation is key. Enthusiasts may cry but the main user who buys his 4 figure season ticket couldn't care less. They just want more space seats and Aircon.

 

[59CosG95]

No, just on the "photos".
You'd have thought they would have drawn gangways if they were part of the spec.
There's a second picture on the Siemens site: http://www.siemens.co.uk/en/news_pr...in-order-for-uks-busiest-commuter-network.htm

Given that statement, I wonder if (and hope that) pan wells are included (for the inevitable 25kv takeover when CR2 arrives...