30 new Desiros for SWT

[swt_passenger]

I think the max speed reduction consisted of a sticker in each cab saying 'max speed 75mph' and very little else, as far as I know they still have the same 100mph gearing they had when they were built.

All we really have to go on about the 're-gearing proposal' is the extract from the Feb 2012 Modern Railways article that I posted in reply to your similar point in the 458 conversion thread back in June last year:

Being 5 cars they will only operate in pairs rather than 3 x 4 cars and that means we can allow each unit to draw more current for a bit more performance. [...] but with an increased load, more vehicles and more frequent stops the motors will be working a lot harder and getting a lot hotter. The low average speed means that the fan on the motor shaft will not pull in enough air to cool it on a warm day and we will see motors overheating. [...] we could disable regenerative braking to solve that but that wouldn't be environmentally friendly. So the best answer is to re-gear the units from their unnecessary 100 mph to 75 mph. This means the motor spins faster for a given track speed and stays comfortable despite its harder life.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1482632&postcount=99

Like almost everyone here, I have no way of knowing if that actually got done, and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since Walmsley will have written that piece anyway...

 

[Monty]

The 458/0s are having their lateral dampers removed as part of the 458/5 rebuild programme so I imagine that would be an issue of you ever wanted them re-geared back to 90/100mph.

 

[455driver]

The 450/0 are having their lateral dampers removed as part of the rebuild so I imagine that would be an issue of you ever wanted them re-geared back to 90/100mph.

I think you mean 458/0s are having the lateral dampers removed on conversion to 458/5s.

 

[Deepgreen]

The BBC News web site has a video this morning about the new stock (30 Desiros).

 

[southern442]

There is this shot...

Desiro City for SWT by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr



Well Desiro Cities was one off the units offered along with a rebuilt 455 offering. The Desiro UK (185/350/444/450 are variants of that design) are no longer being built.

The artist's impression of the train with the SWT suburban livery makes the carriages look like the 508 ones inserted into the 455's.

 

[swt_passenger]

The artist's impression of the train with the SWT suburban livery makes the carriages look like the 508 ones inserted into the 455's.

That just emphasises for me that the artists impressions are fairly useless as evidence for what the completed trains will really look like.

I think it was pointed out in the thread on the Thameslink stock that the real units as built and as seen on the test track are far 'squarer' at cantrail level than expected from the original sketches...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The BBC News web site has a video this morning about the new stock (30 Desiros).

Here's a link to a BBC piece that includes the video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29055120

But as usual Paul Clifton gets it wrong, claiming in his commentary that these new trains will run to Basingstoke, Reading and Guildford.

What SWT have actually said is this, which matches what we've been discussing in the forum:

They will be used to operate ten carriage trains on the busy Waterloo to Windsor services, allowing a cascade of trains across the network to ultimately deliver significant extra capacity on other key routes into London Waterloo. Longer trains will run from Staines through to Bracknell, Ascot and Reading and on a number of mainline services from Basingstoke to London Waterloo.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/Pa...n order for UKs busiest commuter network.aspx

When SWT announced that the 458/5 conversions would work on inner suburban routes Clifton reported that wrongly as well, holding his 'vox pop' session at Reading...

 

[infobleep]

Governments given a press release and made a statement to Parliament.

They are issuing a deed of variation to their franchise agreement so they can keep their existing stock, no external cascade.

New trains are for Waterloo services and will be a Thameslink variant.
In addition released stock will form 2 new mainline services from May 2018 starting from Woking and from Basingstoke and 4 additional peak trains from Hounslow also May 2018.

How will they fit the 2 new services in. Clapham Junction is already very busy with services passing through. I am surprised there is room for 2 additional trains to pass through, let alone stop, from Woking and Basingstoke?

 

[swt_passenger]

How will they fit the 2 new services in. Clapham Junction is already very busy with services passing through. I am surprised there is room for 2 additional trains to pass through, let alone stop, from Woking and Basingstoke?

The only thing I can think of is that there are unused paths in the current timetable, usually referred to as 'firebreaks' to help keep the timetable resilient. But by 2018 they'll have a number of additional platforms at Waterloo, and it ought to be possible to terminate more trains there on their correct timings.

Another point, is that if it is only 2 extra trains, (as written) and not 2 extra trains per hour, they also might be added before the high peak hour, as the maximum frequency only operates for one hour IIRC there may still be room earlier than that.

 

[infobleep]

How about they use 450 during the peak on the Epsom and Cobham lines and for the last services of the night from Waterloo and then the other stock the rest of the time.

OK I know I practise that probably doesn't work. However travels for over am hour or even 50 minutes without a loo is a long time. The alternative would be to add loos to the stock. Not everyone makes short journeys on these trains.

 

[ScotGG]

Forgetting that SE received a capacity of around 20 units in 2009 when the 319s and 377/5s started working SE services.

What services did they strengthen? I can't say I ever saw longer trains as a frequent user. I don't use long distance though - just services with 465/466/376s.

Even so, that was 5 years ago and there is a pressing need now for more, let alone after January. Yet SE are behind most other TOCs around London in gaining more stock when it is the SE franchise that has some of the most potential for upheaval with London Bridge rebuilding.

 

[infobleep]

Well SE did get hi speed 1. What have main line South West Trains users got? Get he platform lengthening seems to only be for stations mainly served by metro services.

They are lengthening some longer distance services which is an improvement it must be said but it will be quite some years away before main line passengers during peak hours are able to make use of connecting services at Clapham Junction, unless they wish to change onto slow metro services at Guildford or Woking and Surbiton. Some lucky passengers have to change twice because no fast services stop at Surbiton on the mainline during the morning peak and no metro services from Woking that do stop at Surbiton, stop at Clapham Junction. I know the Reasons why. Just highlighting how SWT don't exactly have it easy either.

 

[Pumbaa]

Like almost everyone here, I have no way of knowing if that actually got done, and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since Walmsley will have written that piece anyway...

It did get done.

 

[Class377/5]

What services did they strengthen? I can't say I ever saw longer trains as a frequent user. I don't use long distance though - just services with 465/466/376s.

Even so, that was 5 years ago and there is a pressing need now for more, let alone after January. Yet SE are behind most other TOCs around London in gaining more stock when it is the SE franchise that has some of the most potential for upheaval with London Bridge rebuilding.

Initially they used it to release Networkers for traction upgrades. But latest they've not done any lengthening and put back announced 12 car services it seems. May be different come December.

 

[WatcherZero]

The only thing I can think of is that there are unused paths in the current timetable, usually referred to as 'firebreaks' to help keep the timetable resilient. But by 2018 they'll have a number of additional platforms at Waterloo, and it ought to be possible to terminate more trains there on their correct timings.

Another point, is that if it is only 2 extra trains, (as written) and not 2 extra trains per hour, they also might be added before the high peak hour, as the maximum frequency only operates for one hour IIRC there may still be room earlier than that.

From the wording I presume they would operate 2 morning and 2 evening peak services to Hounslow which during the offpeak would operate as 2 services to each of the other destinations mentioned.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the wording I presume they would operate 2 morning and 2 evening peak services to Hounslow which during the offpeak would operate as 2 services to each of the other destinations mentioned.

I don't think so though - there would not be much point in running a couple of off-peak extras to either Basingstoke or Woking that didn't run in the peak as well - the off-peak isn't when the capacity is needed.

For now I'm taking it as separate extras to both mainline side and Windsor side. But in four years time anything might happen, there's not much point in us trying to define it exactly now. All I know is that it all depends on this mainline remodelling that is really unknown in detail, until they put some meat on the bones of that recent tender for the international terminal re-opening, and associated mainline works - which as discussed before may even include a Woking flyover...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It did get done.

Thanks for that confirmation. I wasn't really doubting it, just highlighting that as a mere passenger I have no way of knowing.

In theory I'd have thought 455driver might be in a better position to know for sure - but then again IIRC he said he had moved on somewhere recently...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The probabilities are that they will be used more or less as a 450, so therefore be used just about anywhere, that's with the exception of:

Brockenhurst - Lymington Pier (Current & Platform restrictions)
Guildford - Aldershot - Ascot (Platform lengths)

They will be fitted with ASDO as standard.

 

[swt_passenger]

The probabilities are that they will be used more or less as a 450, so therefore be used just about anywhere...

I am surprised you think that. Given the red colour scheme I'd have thought it far more likely they'd be a 'modern equivalent' to the 455 fleet, with stacks of standing space, no toilets and no first class.

But no doubt the details will trickle out in a few weeks or months.

 

[ryan125hst]

I am surprised you think that. Given the red colour scheme I'd have thought it far more likely they'd be a 'modern equivalent' to the 455 fleet, with stacks of standing space, no toilets and no first class.

But no doubt the details will trickle out in a few weeks or months.

It would be a bit short sighted of South West Trains to specify the Desiro Cities be like that. I can understand the lack of first class and increased standing space if used on suburban routes (weren't the high capacity Class 450's like that?), especially if the trains can be easily converted to outer suburban in the future if needed. A lack of toilets, however, would be very disappointing for passengers. Many people are unhappy with the Class 455's lack of toilets so I've read, and that is understandable given the journey times of an hour or more on some routes. Southern's new Class 377/6's have toilets despite being used on suburban routes, and the beauty of doing this is that they are suitable to be put onto other services if required e.g. on the Brighton Main Line at the weekend.

Surely one space saver toilet and one accessible toilet for the whole five coach train won't be a major issue capacity wise?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Hopefully they can build more if needed.Unlike the 444's.

 

[Goldfish62]

It would be a bit short sighted of South West Trains to specify the Desiro Cities be like that. I can understand the lack of first class and increased standing space if used on suburban routes (weren't the high capacity Class 450's like that?), especially if the trains can be easily converted to outer suburban in the future if needed. A lack of toilets, however, would be very disappointing for passengers. Many people are unhappy with the Class 455's lack of toilets so I've read, and that is understandable given the journey times of an hour or more on some routes. Southern's new Class 377/6's have toilets despite being used on suburban routes, and the beauty of doing this is that they are suitable to be put onto other services if required e.g. on the Brighton Main Line at the weekend.

Surely one space saver toilet and one accessible toilet for the whole five coach train won't be a major issue capacity wise?

In one of the recent online "chats" they stated that they won't have toilets.

This of course means that they will appear on the Reading line substituting for 458/5s on a regular basis.

 

[hassaanhc]

In one of the recent online "chats" they stated that they won't have toilets.

This of course means that they will appear on the Reading line substituting for 458/5s on a regular basis.

The preference for 455 substituting instead of 450 to Reading isn't something most people understand :P. I believe the reason is mileage limits and rescue ability with a 458?

 

[infobleep]

In one of the recent online "chats" they stated that they won't have toilets.

This of course means that they will appear on the Reading line substituting for 458/5s on a regular basis.

That's a shame. It's a requirement for all trains to be able to accommodate a wheelchair so why isn't it a requirement for them all to have at least 1-2 loos. Not all health issues are confined to just being able to walk.

Some of the journey times on the Metro services are just as long if not longer than the Basingstoke to Waterloo service that is normally a 450 with loos.

Admittedly not everyone travels end to end on metro services but some of the country stationa on the Cobham and Bookham lines have no loos when not staffed and they are not staffed fairly often. The last trains back from London to Guildford have no loos as they are metro services. I wonder what people caught short do on such services.

How about a requirement for all stations served by metro trains to be staffed all day. That way the loos could remain open. If a station doesn't need staff all day, due to infrequent passenger usage, how about a requirement for all future trains that are built for the line to be made to have loos.

The last two suggestions may be unworkable. I just have a vested interest in trains with loos and prefer to use them where possible.

 

[455driver]

In theory I'd have thought 455driver might be in a better position to know for sure - but then again IIRC he said he had moved on somewhere recently...

No official info from me on it, just my gut feeling, I dont see why a traction motor working at about 60% capacity should suffer from overheating just because it isnt getting maximum cooling, doesnt give me much comfidence in the type.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wouldn't bank on it. Your route is supposed to be strengthened to ten car using 455s and 456s.

I know - I was just hoping for something with interior lights that don't frazzle your eyes out!

 

[Juniper Driver]

No official info from me on it, just my gut feeling, I dont see why a traction motor working at about 60% capacity should suffer from overheating just because it isnt getting maximum cooling, doesnt give me much comfidence in the type.

I can't see that it should.

 

[jopsuk]

That's a shame. It's a requirement for all trains to be able to accommodate a wheelchair so why isn't it a requirement for them all to have at least 1-2 loos. Not all health issues are confined to just being able to walk.
.

Would you include Underground trains in your requirement? Do trains such as 378s really need a loo?

 

[Clip]

Would you include Underground trains in your requirement? Do trains such as 378s really need a loo?

Probably not unless you were manic enough to go from Stratford to Clapham, though Im sure there are toilets at Willsden so a good half way pit stop

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Given the modular nature of Desiros, could SWT easily fit toilets to them if need be in the future?

 

[infobleep]

Would you include Underground trains in your requirement? Do trains such as 378s really need a loo?

Those trains run every 15 minutes. During peak rush hour the number of trains from Guildford to Clapham Junction is rather less! You have a 7.06, 7.28, 7.36 which overtakes the 7.28 and a 7.58 which arrives in only a minute or 2 before the 8.31 fast service that does have loos. The 7.16 and 8.07 stopping services don't stop at Clapham Junction. 8.28 does but by then your almost out of Guildford's peak rush hour.

I guess if someone needs to travel on the very last train from Stratford to Clapham Junction they might get caught short. As for the tube, apart from the met line, not sure how infrequent the services are. They imagine even they are more frequent than the services from Guildford to Clapham Junction and would a journey into a part of the tube, where it is a higher frequency, be more than 50 minutes?

 

[Feathers44]

One of the comments I've seen here relating to the current Desiros on the inner-suburban routes is that slow doors are leading to longer dwell times and thus slightly late trains.

Forgive my ignorance, but is that something we're likely to see in future with these or is it a non-issue and simply something that is built into the timetable as part of normal business when we know 'what stock goes where' in the future?