• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

UK terror threat level raised to 'Severe'

Status
Not open for further replies.

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,856
I am of the opinion that as soon as you leave the country to knowingly and willingly fight for IS or al Queda or whoever it is this week, or inded any organisation that has a dislike and agenda against Western, secular democracies you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country. I too find it very hard to believe that as soon as matters in Syria or elsewhere are rectified these people will come back here, forget all about it, settle down into a 9-5 job and live life as mundanely as the rest of us.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,932
Location
Fenny Stratford
I am of the opinion that as soon as you leave the country to knowingly and willingly fight for IS or al Queda or whoever it is this week, or inded any organisation that has dislike a dislike of Western, secular democracy you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country. I too find it very hard to believe that as soon as matters in Syria or elsewhere are rectified these people will come back here, forget all about it, settle down into a 9-5 job and live life as mundanely as the rest of us.

exactly - These people have gone abroad to fight, to learn how to use weapons, to learn how to kill, to put that training into practice in Syria and Iraq and they are now threatening to come back.

We should (MUST) stop them bringing that violence here! These people are not Walter Mittys. They are serious, committed, driven by twisted religious teaching, have training and have access to modern weaponry.

Do you want them running amok in this country?
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,380
Location
Liverpool
Hang on a minute. These members of ISIS would surely be the same ones having their photos taken with Senator John McCain who was taking their side. So is he on our side or theirs? Any ideas? As for the UK having a muslim majority, isn't it the free will of the UK population that would make this the case? I doubt it will happen anyway.
 

21C101

Established Member
Joined
19 Jul 2014
Messages
2,559
I am of the opinion that as soon as you leave the country to knowingly and willingly fight for IS or al Queda or whoever it is this week, or inded any organisation that has a dislike and agenda against Western, secular democracies you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country. I too find it very hard to believe that as soon as matters in Syria or elsewhere are rectified these people will come back here, forget all about it, settle down into a 9-5 job and live life as mundanely as the rest of us.

So you would have revoked George Orwells citizenship when he tried to return from spain after fighting for a bunch of murderous Marxists in a vicious civil war that saw far worse atrocities than anything ISIS have done?

Young men have always gone off in search of danger and adventure and done stupid and even evil things, usually they grow out of it. Identifying them and sending them for de-brainwashing would be better, along with charging those known to have committed crimes out there with the appropriate offence and trying them before a jury of their peers, just as Thatcher did with the IRA (any UK citizen who commits serious crimes abroad like Murder can be tried here).

And if you remove citizenship from "any organisation that has a dislike and agenda against Western, secular democracies you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country" you could conceivably be advocating the deposing of the Queen, as the UK is not a secular democracy, its a Christian Monarchy with the leader of the established Church head of state, and I don't see the Queen wanting a secular democracy (aka France) any time soon.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,932
Location
Fenny Stratford
So you would have revoked George Orwells citizenship when he tried to return from spain after fighting for a bunch of murderous Marxists in a vicious civil war that saw far worse atrocities than anything ISIS have done?

Young men have always gone off in search of danger and adventure and done stupid and even evil things, usually they grow out of it. Identifying them and sending them for de-brainwashing would be better, along with charging those known to have committed crimes out there with the appropriate offence and trying them before a jury of their peers, just as Thatcher did with the IRA (any UK citizen who commits serious crimes abroad like Murder can be tried here).

And if you remove citizenship from "any organisation that has a dislike and agenda against Western, secular democracies you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country" you could conceivably be advocating the deposing of the Queen, as the UK is not a secular democracy, its a Christian Monarchy with the leader of the established Church head of state, and I don't see the Queen wanting a secular democracy (aka France) any time soon.


So to be clear - you are happy for these people, trained in various unpleasant activities, to return to the UK and potentially start killing people on our streets while at the same time attempting to subvert our democratically elected government and replace it with something more n tune with their beliefs?

Your proposal is simply to sit them down in a room, have a nice chat over a cup of tea, suggest they might have learned some bad things and ask them nicely if they wouldn’t mind awfully behaving like decent chaps while in this country.

BTW I agree that putting them on trial and locking them up is the right thing to do. I just doubt you would ever gain enough evidence to do so considering the situation in which the crimes were committed. To suggest what I am suggesting goes against the majority of the things I believe in. I just think we can’t take the risk with these people.

I also don’t think you can compare the International Brigades in the Spanish civil war with an insurrection fuelled by a twisted fundamentalist view of religion.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,607
Location
Isle of Man
By 2050 this country will be a majority muslim nation. Did our grandparents die for this? Its time to wake up.

1. No it won't. Even in Bradford 75% of people identify as "white British". Out here in the leafy Home Counties I can't remember the last time I saw a person dressed in Islamic religious clothing in town.

2. No, they died because the British King fell out with his cousins, so sent millions of young men to die in a muddy swamp in northern France.

DarloRich said:
I also don’t think you can compare the International Brigades in the Spanish civil war with an insurrection fuelled by a twisted fundamentalist view of religion.

You can. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The only difference is whether you agree with the terrorist or agree with the terrorist's enemies.

It wasn't long ago that people were demanding we go into Syria and fight on the same side as ISIS. There was a Commons vote on it and the Tories- who wanted to fight with ISIS- only narrowly lost.

The only thing that's changed since then is that the Saudi royal family- who single-handedly keep our weapons factories going- are getting jumpy about being deposed.

MidnightFlyer said:
or inded any organisation that has a dislike and agenda against Western, secular democracies you automatically forfeit your right to citizenship in this country.

I'm a Republican, I think the Royal Family should be abolished and sent to live in a council house in Rotherham. Does that count as an "agenda against Western democracy"?
 
Last edited:

21C101

Established Member
Joined
19 Jul 2014
Messages
2,559
I also don’t think you can compare the International Brigades in the Spanish civil war with an insurrection fuelled by a twisted fundamentalist view of religion.

Twisted, fundamentalist view of atheism is just as bad. The international brigade systematically slaughtered thousands under the direction of the Soviet Union including one notorious massacre where thousands of priests, military personnel, doctors, writers, lawyers and professors were taken on buses to Paracuellos del Jarama and executed in fields over three days, before being buried in mass graves. They were every bit as fanatical and evil as ISIS.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/spanish-civil-war-75-years-later
 
Last edited:

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
8,408
Location
Back in Sussex
1. No it won't. Even in Bradford 75% of people identify as "white British". Out here in the leafy Home Counties I can't remember the last time I saw a person dressed in Islamic religious clothing in town. Are you a racist or a retard? (Yes, I know all racists are retards).

2. No, they died because the British King fell out with his cousins, so sent millions of young men to die in a muddy swamp in northern France.

As usual anyone who is concerned about immigration is a racist or a retard, why don't you grow up and accept that not everyone has the same view as you have, perhaps you should also arrange for a visit to the opticians, I regularly see both males and females dressed in Islamic clothing here in the hotbeds of Surrey and Sussex as well as on a recent visit to Devon

Your comment on those who 'identify' as "white British" is meaningless, you are either white British or not, should some form of large scale conflict ever occur then will those who are Islamic by birth and family renounce that to become 'white British' ?

Your effort to explain the Great War is a little short on fact, try working on the reality instead of waving your anti-monarchy flag
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,932
Location
Fenny Stratford
@ arctictroll & 21C101

Simple question - are you happy for these people to return to the UK and put potentially put their training into use killing people on our streets?
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
Hang on a minute. These members of ISIS would surely be the same ones having their photos taken with Senator John McCain who was taking their side. So is he on our side or theirs? Any ideas? .

You're wasting your time on here with that stuff, they generally prefer it SIMPLE! If the BBC ain't telling them about it, it doesn't exist.

ISIS/Islamic State is simply a bunch of nasty "baddies" who magically have come from nowhere, amassed huge amounts of money and sophisticated arms - again from nowhere, hate the ever fluffy and peace-loving "West" for no reason and just want to do "Evil" for the sake of it.

Just leave it at that and let them witter away about "radicalisation" and "the Government must act" yada,yada to their wee hearts content:lol:
 
Last edited:

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,109
Location
Redcar
2. No, they died because the British King fell out with his cousins, so sent millions of young men to die in a muddy swamp in northern France.

1. My grandparents would have fought in World War Two which is possibly one of the very few examples of a 'Just War'.

2. That's a very narrow and slanted view of the reasons for Britain's entry into World War One and to be honest I would argue it is borderline of simply being wrong. The entry of nations like Germany and Russia has an awful lot to do with their Monarchs falling out (though let's not forget the Willy Nicky letters) but Britain? Not so much. Mostly because even in 1914 the real power was wielded from Parliament.

I'm a Republican, I think the Royal Family should be abolished and sent to live in a council house in Rotherham. Does that count as an "agenda against Western democracy"?

Come on you can make a better argument than that! Obviously wishing to trade one democratic system (the current one) for another (Republicanism) isn't an 'agenda against Western democracy'. On the other hand if you wanted a return to Absolute Monarchy or to hand power to a Caliph or to the Pope in Rome that would be (to my mind).

You're wasting your time on here with that stuff, they generally prefer it SIMPLE! If the BBC ain't telling them about it, it doesn't exist.

ISIS/Islamic State is simply a bunch of nasty "baddies" who magically have come from nowhere, amassed huge amounts of money and sophisticated arms - again from nowhere, hate the ever fluffy and peace-loving "West" for no reason and just want to do "Evil" for the sake of it.

Easier to dismiss those that disagree with you if you belittle them I suppose ;)

Personally I just see it as the way that this most obnoxious of games is played and has always been played. ISIS were on our side right until they weren't in the same way that Assad was our enemy right until he (rather embarrassingly considering what had been said before) wasn't.

In the same way that the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan fighting the Soviet Union were our greatest friends right until they took arms against us and the Taliban became the 'greatest' threat to Western values.

And on and on and on.

International politics and diplomacy is shades of grey (and often rather tinged in blood red). But just because I don't think that Western governments are evil doesn't mean I agree with everything they do either ;)

Let's not reduce each other's arguments to absolutes as we'll get nowhere fast if we do that!
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
8,408
Location
Back in Sussex
You're wasting your time on here with that stuff, they generally prefer it SIMPLE! If the BBC ain't telling them about it, it doesn't exist.

ISIS/Islamic State is simply a bunch of nasty "baddies" who magically have come from nowhere, amassed huge amounts of money and sophisticated arms - again from nowhere, hate the ever fluffy and peace-loving "West" for no reason and just want to do "Evil" for the sake of it.

Just leave it at that and let them witter away about "radicalisation" and "the Government must act" yada,yada to their wee hearts content:lol:

You're having a laugh aren't you ?

The BBC are by far the worst of the do-gooding and biased institutions you could possibly wish to mention, if they are telling anyone about anything then it's likely to be anti-western and anti semitic

Personally I just can't wait for the unveiling of the post independence wee Scottish foreign policy
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,607
Location
Isle of Man
As usual anyone who is concerned about immigration is a racist

We weren't talking about immigration, we were talking about the Muslim population in the UK. I know this may come as something of a shock to you, but not everyone with brown skin is an immigrant. And not everyone who is an immigrant has brown skin.

Given that, at the 2011 Census, barely 5% of the population identified as Muslim, talking about being "overrun" by Muslims is really quite exceptionally moronic.

Your comment on those who 'identify' as "white British" is meaningless, you are either white British or not

Really?

I have white skin and was born to British parents. But I was born in another country, and have citizenship of that country. What am I?

DarloRich said:
Simple question - are you happy for these people to return to the UK and put potentially put their training into use killing people on our streets?

There are lots of ifs and buts in that question. If my granny had a willy she'd be my granddad.

It's not something that really troubles me. I'd prefer for them to get shot in Syria, but then I'd prefer the arms dealers to suffer the same fate too.
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
1. My grandparents would have fought in World War Two which is possibly one of the very few examples of a 'Just War'.

2. That's a very narrow and slanted view of the reasons for Britain's entry into World War One and to be honest I would argue it is borderline of simply being wrong. The entry of nations like Germany and Russia has an awful lot to do with their Monarchs falling out (though let's not forget the Willy Nicky letters) but Britain? Not so much. Mostly because even in 1914 the real power was wielded from Parliament.



Come on you can make a better argument than that! Obviously wishing to trade one democratic system (the current one) for another (Republicanism) isn't an 'agenda against Western democracy'. On the other hand if you wanted a return to Absolute Monarchy or to hand power to a Caliph or to the Pope in Rome that would be (to my mind).



Easier to dismiss those that disagree with you if you belittle them I suppose ;)

Personally I just see it as the way that this most obnoxious of games is played and has always been played. ISIS were on our side right until they weren't in the same way that Assad was our enemy right until he (rather embarrassingly considering what had been said before) wasn't.

In the same way that the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan fighting the Soviet Union were our greatest friends right until they took arms against us and the Taliban became the 'greatest' threat to Western values.

And on and on and on.

International politics and diplomacy is shades of grey (and often rather tinged in blood red). But just because I don't think that Western governments are evil doesn't mean I agree with everything they do either ;)

Let's not reduce each other's arguments to absolutes as we'll get nowhere fast if we do that!

Ok Ainsworth point taken but sometimes I just can't resist it!

As for 1914 - did Parliament actually get to vote - I always thought it was a last minute letter from the Opposition Leader supporting War (if that is what Cabinet decided), that swung it and the Cabinet so decided?
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,329
When the Alert is reduced back to normal will these new powers be withdrawn as well or will they stay?
I know where my money is going!
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
You're having a laugh aren't you ?

The BBC are by far the worst of the do-gooding and biased institutions you could possibly wish to mention, if they are telling anyone about anything then it's likely to be anti-western and anti semitic

Personally I just can't wait for the unveiling of the post independence wee Scottish foreign policy

1 - YES

2 - Anti Semitic? I presume you mean anti-israeli - they did the absolute minimum to give a pretense of reporting evenly on the Gaza bombing, they were more or less openly PRO-Israeli - we must be watching different BBC's - although I do admit to limiting my viewing of the BBC in order to give my TV at least a chance of a useful service life.

3 - Neither can I - hopefully we can at least start to lose our shared "British" international Pariah status!
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,932
Location
Fenny Stratford
There are lots of ifs and buts in that question. If my granny had a willy she'd be my granddad.

It's not something that really troubles me. I'd prefer for them to get shot in Syria, but then I'd prefer the arms dealers to suffer the same fate too.

No it is a very simple question which you haven’t answered. So, yes or no, are you happy for these people to return to the UK and potentially put their training into use killing people on our streets?

I am not and it does pain me to be espousing such totalitarianist views that run contrary to the majority of my personal views, to habeas corpus, to the rule of law and to the ECHR but IF the government have specific intelligence that these people are looking to bring their activities here they must be stopped. If that means locking them up without trial to protect the majority then very reluctantly I have to support that view. If there is a “clear and present danger” to the security of the realm I would also equally as reluctantly support more “robust” action.

And whilst it is wrong to loose the moral high ground and to surrender part of your own beliefs, sometimes necessity makes for strange bed fellows. What would be the response if the worst were to happen and it became clear the government could have prevented the problem but failed to do so, instead preferring to maintain as absolute the civil liberties of all? Whilst deep down I agree with that stance, how many lives is that view worth?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When the Alert is reduced back to normal will these new powers be withdrawn as well or will they stay?
I know where my money is going!

but they are emergency powers............... ;)
 

ExRes

Established Member
Joined
16 Dec 2012
Messages
8,408
Location
Back in Sussex
1 - YES

2 - Anti Semitic? I presume you mean anti-israeli - they did the absolute minimum to give a pretense of reporting evenly on the Gaza bombing, they were more or less openly PRO-Israeli - we must be watching different BBC's - although I do admit to limiting my viewing of the BBC in order to give my TV at least a chance of a useful service life.

3 - Neither can I - hopefully we can at least start to lose our shared "British" international Pariah status!

The BBC that comes out of my TV set couldn't be any more anti Semitic if it tried, loads of weeping and wailing for the Arabs and virtually not a mention of the constant Hamas rockets or dead Israelis, lots of mentions when Israel retaliated after Hamas broke all of the ceasefires, little mention that Hamas broke them, maybe Scottish TV receivers are tuned in to a different frequency

Out of interest, maybe you could explain the difference between anti Semitic and anti Israeli for me while you're at it
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,109
Location
Redcar
Ok Ainsworth point taken but sometimes I just can't resist it!

;)

As for 1914 - did Parliament actually get to vote - I always thought it was a last minute letter from the Opposition Leader supporting War (if that is what Cabinet decided), that swung it and the Cabinet so decided?

It was decided by Cabinet not parliament (a vote in Parliament might have been interesting in the way that the vote last year on intervening in Syria was) as far as I'm aware but I'm not sure if the Opposition Leader supporting swung the vote in favour. It was an interesting Cabinet anyway as there were both Liberals and Conservatives on it! Though these were proper Liberals rather than the modern LibDems...

When the Alert is reduced back to normal will these new powers be withdrawn as well or will they stay?
I know where my money is going!

I'd rather like an answer to that question also as I have some doubts...
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
.....
Out of interest, maybe you could explain the difference between anti Semitic and anti Israeli for me while you're at it
Quite simple. The state of Israel is a political entity, not racial or religious, and one may agree with its actions or not. To disagree with its actions is an anti-Israeli stance.
Anti-Semitic behaviour is that which opposes something or someone because they are Jewish. Being Jewish is a racial or religious characteristic.
Someone can be Jewish without being Israeli, and can be Israeli without being Jewish.
What a number of commentators and participants have done, deliberately or not, is to confuse Israeli and Jewish as if they were synonymous, for instance in claiming some justification for Israel's actions coming from the Nazi Holocaust. This is patently highly misleading.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,607
Location
Isle of Man
No it is a very simple question which you haven’t answered. So, yes or no, are you happy for these people to return to the UK and potentially put their training into use killing people on our streets?

I did answer. I said it isn't something that bothers me. I'm certainly not bothered by them enough to think that my country should break one of the basic principles of international law.

So many things could "potentially" kill me that I'd never do anything else if I panicked about every bogieman on the telly.

As for the BBC, I find it fascinating that people see what they want to see. The last Chair of the BBC Trust, the body that runs the organisation, was the arch-Thatcherite Chris Patten. The new Chair is a former director of British Aerospace, one of the largest arms manufacturers in the world. The BBC may be many things but one thing it isn't is a hotbed of international communism.

ExRes said:
Out of interest, maybe you could explain the difference between anti Semitic and anti Israeli for me while you're at it

Perhaps you could explain what the similarities are?
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,380
Location
Liverpool
The BBC that comes out of my TV set couldn't be any more anti Semitic if it tried, loads of weeping and wailing for the Arabs and virtually not a mention of the constant Hamas rockets or dead Israelis, lots of mentions when Israel retaliated after Hamas broke all of the ceasefires, little mention that Hamas broke them, maybe Scottish TV receivers are tuned in to a different frequency

Out of interest, maybe you could explain the difference between anti Semitic and anti Israeli for me while you're at it

Do you honestly need someone to explain the difference between anti semitic and people not liking Israel?
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
It's an old tactic but it works on people of low intelligence - it's meant to conflate opposition to the actions of the Israeli State with hatred for Jews generally and even support for the actions of the Third Reich.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
We're being ramped up for UK involvement in airstrikes against "ISIL/ISIS".

Let me get this right - ISIL has come from nowhere to have "assets" of $2billion approx, makes $2million per day from "Oil sales" facilitated by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, gets huge amounts of sophisticated Western Arms financed by Saudi Arabia which would not happen without Israeli and US approval and therefore is essentially a Western Intelligence "Construct".

But no, lets ignore all that (easy if you watch the BBC:)), no they desperately wish to be minced by massive US and lackey airstrikes and are (apparently) murdering a US citizen every few days to make sure this happens.

You couldn't get people to fall for that S***e could you?

Oh - they have.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,932
Location
Fenny Stratford
We're being ramped up for UK involvement in airstrikes against "ISIL/ISIS".

Let me get this right - ISIL has come from nowhere to have "assets" of $2billion approx, makes $2million per day from "Oil sales" facilitated by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, gets huge amounts of sophisticated Western Arms financed by Saudi Arabia which would not happen without Israeli and US approval and therefore is essentially a Western Intelligence "Construct".

But no, lets ignore all that (easy if you watch the BBC:)), no they desperately wish to be minced by massive US and lackey airstrikes and are (apparently) murdering a US citizen every few days to make sure this happens.

You couldn't get people to fall for that S***e could you?

Oh - they have.

WOW that is a massively paranoid conspiracy you have yourself there! However for full marks please do try to include the phrase "US military industrial complex" in your rant ;)
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,047
WOW that is a massively paranoid conspiracy you have yourself there! However for full marks please do try to include the phrase "US military industrial complex" in your rant ;)

Well if you wish to believe in comforting Fairy stories by all means do:lol:

Oh and lets go the full hog - the backgrounds in the two "execution" videos look curiously similar and suspiciously "green screenish" - just saying...

Cue the laughter (but never convincing rebuttals).
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
I posted this on the first page of this thread, but I think it warrents repeating

tin-foil-hat.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top