Northern and TPE Short List Announced

[Deerfold]

If Govia Northern gets it, excellent as I do hope it means that they will get shut of the class 150's and replace them with some nice and new class 172's about time the North gets something new than cast offs.

I doubt the units that Northern do or don't get will vary under any of the bidders.

 

[HH]

I doubt the units that Northern do or don't get will vary under any of the bidders.

That is almost certainly incorrect. I've never known a franchise where the bidders didn't come up with different rolling stock plans.

 

[Deerfold]

That is almost certainly incorrect. I've never known a franchise where the bidders didn't come up with different rolling stock plans.

The DfT seems very keen on managing new stock - IEP, Thameslink. Even Crossrail's not down to the company which will operate the stock.

If they get cascaded stock presumably this will depend on what's available.

If a Northern franchise actually order or specify their own stock I'll be amazed.

 

[Bevan Price]

If Govia Northern gets it, excellent as I do hope it means that they will get shut of the class 150's and replace them with some nice and new class 172's about time the North gets something new than cast offs.

Not much chance of any new dmus for Northern in the next 15 to 20 years, I fear. Though we may eventually get some new emus when the 319s become worn out.

 

[ModernRailways]

The DfT seems very keen on managing new stock - IEP, Thameslink. Even Crossrail's not down to the company which will operate the stock.

If they get cascaded stock presumably this will depend on what's available.

If a Northern franchise actually order or specify their own stock I'll be amazed.

That's why I think Govia will be the best option. They seem to invest in their rolling stock as part of their image as they are very customer image orientated.

 

[IanXC]

The DfT seems very keen on managing new stock - IEP, Thameslink. Even Crossrail's not down to the company which will operate the stock.

I think that depends whether the current Government stick to their words - 700/800/801 are pretty much hangover from the last Government's policy.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

That's why I think Govia will be the best option. They seem to invest in their rolling stock as part of their image as they are very customer image orientated.

This is why I think Govia will introduce new DMU's to replace the clapped out class 150's, as the 150's are noisy (sound leaks through the floor), class 155's are restricted on what lines they can go on because of the external unit steps that could well strike the platform edges at certain stations and the 158's are stuck on local services that Pacer's are ment to be running on. Plus the 158/9's aircon seem to enjoy going on strike over the summer.

So longs the 153's and the Pacers are kept for lightly used services - I'm happy as it does mean that the rest of the fleet can be replaced like for like. Even though the 333's are knocking on for 14 years I'd replace them (and the 321's and 322's) with 377's in order to try and create a uniformish fleet.

If we had to for the short term I'd be happy to see Turbostar's being plonked onto Sheffield - Scarborough services in order to free up a handful of 158's that could be coupled to another 158 unit and ran in tandem in order to try and create the illusion of more seats.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not much chance of any new dmus for Northern in the next 15 to 20 years, I fear. Though we may eventually get some new emus when the 319s become worn out.

That is cheering news to know, as I will be either 84 or 89 years of age based on your figures when this actually occurs....

Perhaps a referendum for the North of England may occur in that time period, similar to the one due to take place in Scotland.

 

[158756]

This is why I think Govia will introduce new DMU's to replace the clapped out class 150's, as the 150's are noisy (sound leaks through the floor), class 155's are restricted on what lines they can go on because of the external unit steps that could well strike the platform edges at certain stations and the 158's are stuck on local services that Pacer's are ment to be running on. Plus the 158/9's aircon seem to enjoy going on strike over the summer.

So longs the 153's and the Pacers are kept for lightly used services - I'm happy as it does mean that the rest of the fleet can be replaced like for like. Even though the 333's are knocking on for 14 years I'd replace them (and the 321's and 322's) with 377's in order to try and create a uniformish fleet.

If we had to for the short term I'd be happy to see Turbostar's being plonked onto Sheffield - Scarborough services in order to free up a handful of 158's that could be coupled to another 158 unit and ran in tandem in order to try and create the illusion of more seats.

Any bid with all (or any) of that would probably lose by miles on cost grounds. Surely the cheapest solution is to keep the fleet the same size, losing sprinters to other operators or the Pacers to be scrapped as more 319s are introduced (or as services are reduced). Oh, and not refurbishing any stock, even for the DDA requirements.
And it's not no growth, because a 319 has more capacity than a 142 or 150.

 

[Jonny]

As for the TPE franchise, I can only hope for Keolis and Go-Ahead which is still essentially GoVia! Although, I wouldn't mind Stagecoach or First tbh. First aren't doing too bad of a job, and I doubt any other TOC would do a better job. Although that doesn't mean I won't be able to moan about First

I am more concerned that a Go-Ahead franchise on TPE would make even less effort to compete on parts of the route when the main rival is one of its own bus services. Unfortunately the only one that I can think of is the one that I regularly use...

 

[Aictos]

I might be wrong but wasn't one requirement of the future Northern franchise was to dispose of the Class 14X fleet?

With the Class 319 fleet moving to Northern, surely this enables a internal cascade to begin the process of disposing of the Class 14X fleet?

And as to the future franchise getting Class 172s, they might not even go with Bombardier as both Hyundai Rotem Co.& Tokyu Car Corporation with their Class 22000 trains as currently used by Iarnród Éireann or the Class 3000 trains used by Northern Ireland Railways look to be good additionals to the network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I might be wrong but wasn't one requirement of the future Northern franchise was to dispose of the Class 14X fleet? With the Class 319 fleet moving to Northern, surely this enables a internal cascade to begin the process of disposing of the Class 14X fleet.

When you say "the Class 319 fleet", did you mean all of them or just a chosen percentage ? There are currently a large number of the Class 142 units alone in the Northern Pacer Fleet.

 

[Aictos]

When you say "the Class 319 fleet", did you mean all of them or just a chosen percentage ? There are currently a large number of the Class 142 units alone in the Northern Pacer Fleet.

IMHO the entire Class 319 fleet if possible if not then a large percentage ought to go north as I'm pretty sure the Thames Valley requires 110mph capable EMUs, so doubtful they be heading there.

Question is when the North's electrification is complete, how many services can go over from DMU operated to EMU operated, this will give us a better idea of the number of 319s required?

 

[northwichcat]

IMHO the entire Class 319 fleet if possible if not then a large percentage ought to go north as I'm pretty sure the Thames Valley requires 110mph capable EMUs, so doubtful they be heading there.

110mph running on Thames Valley is a CP6 aspiration. The plan has been 319s for the first few years post-electrification since Lord Adonis announced electrification. The option for going straight to new EMUs was considered but wasn't taken forward.
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I might be wrong but wasn't one requirement of the future Northern franchise was to dispose of the Class 14X fleet?

I think the exact term Stephen Hammond used was - bidders will be required to present options for Pacer replacement.

With the Class 319 fleet moving to Northern, surely this enables a internal cascade to begin the process of disposing of the Class 14X fleet?

Hardly. The Northern and FGW franchises are overdue a combined total of 162 additional carriages, which were due to provide extra capacity needed by December 2012. While TPE did eventually get the 40 additional carriages they were due in CP4 they are now set to lose 18 carriages, so we're up to 180 additional carriages being needed.

Like I've said before any thought of Pacers being withdrawn before December 2018 (when part of North TPE becomes electric) as a result of DMU cascades resulting from electrification is complete fantasy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And it's not no growth, because a 319 has more capacity than a 142 or 150.

But a 319 is the same size as the pairs of 150s which operate peak time and some off-peak services between Manchester & Preston. Apparently some Wigan-Liverpool services are 2 x 156s so a 319 will be smaller. Adding capacity to the quieter off-peak services on newly electrified lines won't solve overcrowding problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was, with view t a fourth car later on if required, and we all know what happened with that.

The same thing that happened with the option for extra 172s for LM.

Really First hasn't had much luck over the years with rolling stock, DFT interference (TP Express, FGE - where the order for Desiros was also cut back by 4 trains) and long drawn out tenders (FGW/FCC)

They did seem to have control over the 175/180 orders and apparently FNW would have got 180s as well as 175s had it not been for the loss of rights to operate their Euston services.

Generally TOCs did seem to have more control of stock a few years earlier. After delivery of 222s First Group were able to send the Hull Trains 170s to Scotrail, while National Express were able to send the MML 170s to CT.

First North Western also took on a loco-hauled set in 2004 to allow First TransPennine Express to sublease 2 x 158s. Then the SRA came along and it's never been the same since - I can't see FGW taking on additional loco-hauled sets next year and subleasing their 180s to FTPE to cover for the loss of 170/3s.

 

[Y961 XBU]

This is why I think Govia will introduce new DMU's to replace the clapped out class 150's, as the 150's are noisy (sound leaks through the floor), class 155's are restricted on what lines they can go on because of the external unit steps that could well strike the platform edges at certain stations and the 158's are stuck on local services that Pacer's are ment to be running on. Plus the 158/9's aircon seem to enjoy going on strike over the summer.

So longs the 153's and the Pacers are kept for lightly used services - I'm happy as it does mean that the rest of the fleet can be replaced like for like. Even though the 333's are knocking on for 14 years I'd replace them (and the 321's and 322's) with 377's in order to try and create a uniformish fleet.

If we had to for the short term I'd be happy to see Turbostar's being plonked onto Sheffield - Scarborough services in order to free up a handful of 158's that could be coupled to another 158 unit and ran in tandem in order to try and create the illusion of more seats.

I cant see any 150 Class Trains getting replaced any time soon as first the 142's must go as they are not DDA Compliant.

As for who wins the Northern Services it best not be Arriva, i remember very well how much of a joke they where the last time they had the services, saying that Northern aint much better now with the same busy services only getting 2 Car Trains and the Evening Service on my line being infrequent!

 

[HH]

I cant see any 150 Class Trains getting replaced any time soon as first the 142's must go as they are not DDA Compliant.

Neither the Sprinters; nor the Class 319s are PRM-TSI compliant. Despite what others have written, the bids will have to include refurbishment (I imagine the ROSCOs will demand it as well, to safeguard their investment).

The only way that refurbishment might not occur is if any of these fleets are replaced by new stock before January 2020 and are therefore treated as life expired.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone with the necessary knowledge say how many exemptions there are to the 2010 Equality Act, where this refers to the public transport section of incorporation of the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act, as the current Pacer fleet seems to be one such exemption now. Are there also similar exemptions for elderly step-access buses, to use a transport-based scenario?

 

[northwichcat]

Can someone with the necessary knowledge say how many exemptions there are to the 2010 Equality Act, where this refers to the public transport section of incorporation of the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act, as the current Pacer fleet seems to be one such exemption now. Are there also similar exemptions for elderly step-access buses, to use a transport-based scenario?

Any pre-1995 rail rolling stock is exempt until 31 December 2019 in accordance with the original act. Any Northern Rail or EMT train that you can see at Manchester Piccadilly doesn't fully meet the requirements. If an ATW 150 or 153 turns up then they also fail to meet the requirements - I'm not sure about their refurbished 158s

I think older buses are exempt until 2016

 

[DT611]

both Hyundai Rotem Co.& Tokyu Car Corporation with their Class 22000 trains as currently used by Iarnród Éireann or the Class 3000 trains used by Northern Ireland Railways look to be good additionals to the network.

i don't know about nir's 3/4000 trains, but as someone who gets the 22000 class sometimes on my line (rosslare dublin) they are quiet and comfortable.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Yesterday the Northern 142 Class's come up in a convo, does anyone think they would be re-painted into the new company livery?

 

[Starmill]

Any pre-1995 rail rolling stock is exempt until 31 December 2019 in accordance with the original act. Any Northern Rail or EMT train that you can see at Manchester Piccadilly doesn't fully meet the requirements. If an ATW 150 or 153 turns up then they also fail to meet the requirements - I'm not sure about their refurbished 158s

I think older buses are exempt until 2016

I think the latest documents said that the only sprinter trains countrywide that are compliant and GAs 156s. It must be to do with the toilet fittings? Those 156s have now had a 'doors open' tone added too, whicj to my knowledge no 158s yet have?

 

[Crossforth]

I think the latest documents said that the only sprinter trains countrywide that are compliant and GAs 156s. It must be to do with the toilet fittings? Those 156s have now had a 'doors open' tone added too, whicj to my knowledge no 158s yet have?

Are not even the SWT 158s and 159s compliant?

 

[Pumbaa]

Are not even the SWT 158s and 159s compliant?

Nope, not yet.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Any pre-1995 rail rolling stock is exempt until 31 December 2019 in accordance with the original act. Any Northern Rail or EMT train that you can see at Manchester Piccadilly doesn't fully meet the requirements. If an ATW 150 or 153 turns up then they also fail to meet the requirements - I'm not sure about their refurbished 158s

I think older buses are exempt until 2016

With buses its slightly different.

Singles - 2015, Deckers - 2016