Northern and TPE Short List Announced

[HH]

Well they have another 14 years with Abellio at Merseyrail, an operation which has a decent reputation (though as a concession, the PTE (Merseytravel) takes some of the key decisions and risks).

Yes, but firstly Abellio take more of a lead on that, and secondly (and possibly the cause of the first) it's very small acorns for Serco.

 

[mtbox]

It won't make the slightest bit of difference who wins the franchise, same crappy trains, same crappy service (and in all probability a crappier service), got to do more with less etc etc. Only thing that will change is the colour of the trains and our uniforms

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but firstly Abellio take more of a lead on that, and secondly (and possibly the cause of the first) it's very small acorns for Serco.

Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited (the Merseyrail franchise holder) is 100% owned by Merseyrail Service Holdings Limited, which is 50% owned by Serco and 50% by Abellio.

Northern Rail Limited (the Northern franchise holder) is 100% owned by Northern Rail Holdings Limited, which is 50% owned by Serco and 50% by Abellio.

So the profits would be equally split unless Abellio invest more capital in to the franchise than Serco.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It won't make the slightest bit of difference who wins the franchise, same crappy trains, same crappy service (and in all probability a crappier service), got to do more with less etc etc. Only thing that will change is the colour of the trains and our uniforms

That's not what the DfT announcement said:

Over the next 5 years, thanks to government investment, more than £1 billion will be spent on the rail network in the north. This includes the £600 million for the Northern Hub project, and the electrification projects in the north-west and across the Trans-Pennine routes.

The potential operators will need to demonstrate how they will use these projects to increase capacity in order to tackle crowding and meet future passenger demand; provide faster and more frequent services; and upgrade rolling stock, including proposals to replace Pacer trains on the Northern franchise. Bidders will also need to improve customer service and passenger satisfaction.

 

[HH]

Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited (the Merseyrail franchise holder) is 100% owned by Merseyrail Service Holdings Limited, which is 50% owned by Serco and 50% by Abellio.

Northern Rail Limited (the Northern franchise holder) is 100% owned by Northern Rail Holdings Limited, which is 50% owned by Serco and 50% by Abellio.

So the profits would be equally split unless Abellio invest more capital in to the franchise than Serco.

You seem to have misunderstood me. Abellio take a more active part in the management of the companies.

 

[otomous]

Southeastern have done nothing major to their trains it seems since taking over

SE have actually been very similar to Northern; in the sense that they have adhered to the terms of the franchise but not sought to develop the services. So there are short trains and plenty of low frequencies that are seriously suppressing demand. Catford loop is still only 2tph despite serving plenty of crowded London suburbs; four car trains at weekends that are fuller than some weekday peak services, frequencies halved in the evening (whereas Southern maintains 4tph all day all week on its core metro routes), a willingness to cancel everything with a hint of bad weather and so on. This is why TfL failing to take over SE metro was such a blow because without a franchise commitment to grow the network nothing will now change. This is the fear for the future of the Northern services as well I suspect.

 

[BurtonM]

I suppose that you can console yourself with the knowledge that your local station of Stalybridge has had much improvements to it in recent times, so all is not all that bad in your corner of the world.

I concur. The timetabling is awful from the average passenger's persepective (try and get to Huddersfield on a Sunday!), but there's not a lost else to complain about. It's a stroke of luck that it's a TPE station.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Its even worse when someone is trying to get to work at Piccadilly lol

 

[Wavertreelad]

Looks like some empire building is about to break out in true diplomatic style, not.

The Liverpool Echo is reporting

Merseytravel chairman critical of Northern Rail run service for lacking quality

A top rail boss has claimed passengers using lines from Liverpool to Huyton, St Helens and Wigan get a worse service than elsewhere on the Merseyside network.

Cllr Liam Robinson, Merseytravel chairman, says those travelling on the eastern services run by Northern Rail “do not enjoy the same benefits” as those on Merseyrail and there is “no consistent quality” across the region.

In his blog, Cllr Robinson writes that he wants a Merseyrail-style model of service throughout the North.

He questions whether passengers are getting value for money from rail services given fares will rise in the new year and there is now a shortlist of bidders for the current Northern Rail and TransPennine Express franchises.

He writes: “I’ve often said that rail on Merseyside is a network of two halves.

“Areas served by Merseyrail which is locally managed by Merseytravel, enjoy a network that consistently scores highly for customer satisfaction, reliability and value for money, with average fares currently not able to rise above inflation.

“Those who use the City Line towards Huyton, St Helens and beyond do not enjoy the same benefits.

“While I fully appreciate that the City Line is a different beast with it being part of the wider network making it a much more complex operation for Northern Rail, it does mean that there is no consistent quality of service across the Liverpool City Region.

“This postcode divide can’t be and shouldn’t be acceptable and that’s why we’re working with transport authorities across the north and the Department for Transport to inform the new franchise agreements which come into effect from February 2016.

“We want a Merseyrail-style, locally-influenced model for the whole of the North. We want to see newer and better quality rolling stock, a value for money fare structure and customer service that’s second to none.”

Service standards are a very important part of the picture, he adds, but they can only be maintained if a network continues to cope with passengers and freight over the coming decades.

The Liverpool City Region is the fastest growing in the country and between now and 2023 – the likely lifetime of the new franchises, with its economy expected to grow by almost 30 per cent.

Therefore it was important to look at the bigger picture with a year long term rail strategy which goes to the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority in September, he said.

This will support and grow the Liverpool City Region economy over the next 30 years by improving connections within it and further afield.

“People getting where they want to go quickly, efficiently, comfortably and with a sense they are getting what they are paying for shouldn’t just be an aspiration,” said Cllr Robinson.

“It should be what every rail passenger should be able to expect and what Government, transport bodies and operators should be delivering.”

Northern Rail is considering its response to Cllr Robinson’s comments

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/merseytravel-chairman-critical-northern-rail-7645763

 

[HH]

He's been learning from bonking Boris.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Earlier Sunday services are not possible because it would affect Network Rail's (NR) maintenance schedules. The line between Leicester and Nuneaton has trains running 24/7 anyway with freight, so Saturday nights to Sunday mornings are the only window NR can carry out essential maintenance.

There is a TWThO ROTR possession. The late start from Leicester is to due to it being formed from the first service from Birmingham despite a set being outstabled at Leicester over the weekend - an earlier service could be run if XC wanted to.

 

[SqUaShIe P]

Does anyone know which companies failed to get shortlisted for each of the two franchises?

 

[BurtonM]

Google suggests Serco applied for TPE, but not Northern. The rejection appears to have put the share price down a bit.

 

[HH]

Google suggests Serco applied for TPE, but not Northern. The rejection appears to have put the share price down a bit.

I have been told this by someone who knows Serco. I'm sure there are others; I would have expected MTR to bid for TPE, for instance. From what I hear Northern was not as popular (and I'm not surprised; as I've said previously what DfT are asking for is going to be very hard to deliver).

 

[Yorkshireguy]

You try telling that to someone who regularly uses SE's metro services!

It really depends on what the new franchise holder does in the way of improvements more than anything. An awful lot of the North's problems are with image, which Southeastern has always struggled with (with good reason, the state the Networkers and many of the short-distance Electrostars are in is frankly disgraceful.) Southern, on the other hand, have done a good job with their refurbishments of the 313s etc., so if they won, one would hope a similar attitude would be brought to the station environments, and also refurbishments of the 319s and the (hopefully final) tarting-up of the Pacers.

Well, you can tell I'm one of those people up North who get impressed with Class 395s. Are the Networkers and Electrostars really in worse of a state of a Pacer? I agree, the improvements will be quite the decisive factor.

 

[northwichcat]

Are the Networkers and Electrostars really in worse of a state of a Pacer? I agree, the improvements will be quite the decisive factor.

The older (Southern) 377s I've been on could do with a refresh - they are currently in a state similar to what the Northern 323s were like before they got new seat covers, an internal repaint and new floor covering.

The (Southeastern) 465s I've been on are in a better condition than the Northern 323s were in before they got refreshed.

 

[Class 170101]

There is a TWThO ROTR possession.

Thats a Section 5 Possession and only happens about every six to 12 weeks as I recall. Its tied up with other routes (usually via London) being open.

The late start from Leicester is to due to it being formed from the first service from Birmingham despite a set being outstabled at Leicester over the weekend - an earlier service could be run if XC wanted to.

Clearly a commercial decision then.

 

[swt_passenger]

I really don't think that bus operations are considered when looking the (anti) competition side of rail franchise awarding.

They definitely are considered, but once the decision is made. There was a discussion about this recently in the thead 'Investigation into TSGN award announced' a week or two ago: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104430

...of particular relevance, post #13 by stats linked to this archived report about what went on in the last Southern review by the competition authorities:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....t.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/decisions/2009/govia

 

[martynbristow]

There seems to be a move towards *superfranchises* Northern ...

Are we basically moving back to a privatised version of BR regions.
After my experience on a Northern Service last night I wonder shouldn't we be looking at smaller services bid for in a similar way to bus routes :/

Last night I had a lovely smiling face of the PR boss going tell us whats wrong on a train which came in left late due to a large arrival and the passengers had no idea where it was going because the guard was sitting in the back cab and not making announcements.
Do these PR gurus travel on standard services :/

 

[ModernRailways]

DfT announcement today: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-transpennine-express-rail-operators-revealed

The shortlisted bidders to run the 2 franchises from February 2016 are:
•Northern:
•Abellio Northern Ltd
•Arriva Rail North Limited
•Govia Northern Limited

•TransPennine Express:
•First Trans Pennine Express Limited
•Keolis Go-Ahead Limited
•Stagecoach Trans Pennine Express Trains Limited

Edit: One obvious point is that one company will not run both franchises [but Keolis own 35% of Govia].
Another is that Serco will not run Northern.

Oh God! I do hope Arriva don't get it. Personally, I would like GoVia to win it as they seem to be more focused on what the passenger sees/receives. And they seem to care a lot more about their public image than the other TOCs do!

As for the TPE franchise, I can only hope for Keolis and Go-Ahead which is still essentially GoVia! Although, I wouldn't mind Stagecoach or First tbh. First aren't doing too bad of a job, and I doubt any other TOC would do a better job. Although that doesn't mean I won't be able to moan about First

 

[martynbristow]

I vote for:
Govia Northern
Stagecoach TPE
Should we just do a poll here and save the dft a few bob

 

[Aictos]

Who ever wins these franchises will be in the DfT's eye what is Best For Business and not would be considered best for passengers.

However if Govia get Northern I be very happy

 

[pennine]

Oh God! I do hope Arriva don't get it. Personally, I would like GoVia to win it as they seem to be more focused on what the passenger sees/receives. And they seem to care a lot more about their public image than the other TOCs do!

As for the TPE franchise, I can only hope for Keolis and Go-Ahead which is still essentially GoVia! Although, I wouldn't mind Stagecoach or First tbh. First aren't doing too bad of a job, and I doubt any other TOC would do a better job. Although that doesn't mean I won't be able to moan about First

Totally agree. I can feel it in my waters that Arriva 'Rail North' - always be Arriva Trains Northern to me, will be awarded the franchise. The eye-catching green and cream curve livery will be back with a vengeance. Although, I am biased, judging from the days of ATN and the state of play back then.

But of course, as others have said, the award will be based on value for money. Just as long as there is continued improvement to trains, routes and facilities I'm sure it will be fine.

As for TPE, my personal preference is for First to retain this, although since Arriva hasn't bidded for it, we can all sleep that little bit easier!

 

[northwichcat]

As for TPE, my personal preference is for First to retain this, although since Arriva hasn't bidded for it, we can all sleep that little bit easier!

If Arriva had won the current franchise then the new rolling stock for TPE would have been 4 carriage Intercity style trains similar to the 180s or 222s, not 3 carriage Desiros.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I vote for:
Govia Northern
Stagecoach TPE
Should we just do a poll here and save the dft a few bob

I'd want to see which options different operators proposed to take up.

With Alex Hynes saying there's a possibility of an exemption order being requested for Pacers and replacing them with cascaded trains in CP6 it suggests Abellio may propose doing that in their bid.

If Govia proposed an order of new trains to operate on non-electrified lines in one form or another then I think they'd be the passenger's favourite. With also having the Thameslink franchise which needs more carriages for non-electrified lines maybe a joint order of something is realistic?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Arriva had won the current franchise then the new rolling stock for TPE would have been 4 carriage Intercity style trains similar to the 180s or 222s, not 3 carriage Desiros.

If that had happened, I don't think there would have been as many trains.
FKTPE ordered 54x3-car 185s, maybe Arriva would have got something like 40x4-car 22x.
The DfT would have limited either the number of vehicles or the overall lease cost.
It might even have been the issue that lost them the bid.

 

[northwichcat]

If that had happened, I don't think there would have been as many trains.
FKTPE ordered 54x3-car 185s, maybe Arriva would have got something like 40x4-car 22x.
The DfT would have limited either the number of vehicles or the overall lease cost.
It might even have been the issue that lost them the bid.

I thought it was going to be 56 x 185s originally.

The proposal for 54/56 x 185s were supposed to cover all services on North TPE, South TPE and Manchester Airport to Barrow & Windermere only.

The SRA proposed to reduce the order to around 45 x 185s and for TPE to refurbish and keep some of the 3 car 158s. However, according to Tony Miles the SRA agreed to 51 x 185s because Siemens offered a reduced price for an order exceeding 50 trains in response to the SRA trying to cut back the order. However, they made TPE additionally take on Blackpool-Manchester Airport and take on the SWT 170s* instead of keeping the 3 car 158s.

We really can't say what SRA would have done if Arriva had won. Ordering 22xs in 3 car formation would not have been cost effective due to the driving cars having lower capacity than the centre cars. I heard that Arriva proposed additionally introducing a new Blackpool-Sheffield service as part of their bid so would have required more trains than the First/Kelios bid but that might have helped them lose to First/Kelios.

* Except one was a CT 170 in lieu of a SWT 170 so that Southern got an extra unit to convert to a 171.

 

[ModernRailways]

Totally agree. I can feel it in my waters that Arriva 'Rail North' - always be Arriva Trains Northern to me, will be awarded the franchise. The eye-catching green and cream curve livery will be back with a vengeance. Although, I am biased, judging from the days of ATN and the state of play back then.

But of course, as others have said, the award will be based on value for money. Just as long as there is continued improvement to trains, routes and facilities I'm sure it will be fine.

As for TPE, my personal preference is for First to retain this, although since Arriva hasn't bidded for it, we can all sleep that little bit easier!

I have the same problem. Grand Central has went downhill lately - I don't travel with them anymore because there staff are ignorant and think they are everything. CrossCountry I quite like, but that's more because they quick and really open up the options for where I can travel to. Arriva Trains Wales were naff when I used them but that was last year. And I like Chiltern, but Chiltern seems to be more DB than Arriva. And as for the T&W Metro, well you can probably find my thoughts on that with a quick visit to the Other Public Transport subforum

I just can't imagine Arriva doing a good job, they will lack competition because they operate a lot of the longer distance bus services which would be run by rail or are run by rail such as Newcastle to Carlisle and Newcastle to Ashington.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I thought it was going to be 56 x 185s originally..

It was, with view t a fourth car later on if required, and we all know what happened with that.

Really First hasn't had much luck over the years with rolling stock, DFT interference (TP Express, FGE - where the order for Desiros was also cut back by 4 trains) and long drawn out tenders (FGW/FCC)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If Govia Northern gets it, excellent as I do hope it means that they will get shut of the class 150's and replace them with some nice and new class 172's about time the North gets something new than cast offs.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hasn't production of 172s ceased?