Do railways discriminate against colourblind people?

[455driver]

Do you really think you can distinguish a C from an E, or a D from a B, or a K from an R at that speed? Or -> from <- ?

I bet they could diferentiate between O and F when it goes wrong!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This is ridiculous.

I'm not fit enough to join the Marines. Do the marines therefore discriminate against unfit people? I'm not clever enough to go to Oxbridge. Do those unis discriminate against stupid people?

 

[najaB]

This is an example of a lack of recognition of colourblindness, according to the Colour Blind Awareness Organisation, 2.4 million people suffer from colourblindness, 1 in 12 men in the world have the condition.

Unless a desire to drive a train is side effect of colour blindness, I stand by my statement that the problem you are trying to solve only affects a very small group of people.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I used to work on the buses with someone who was completely red/green colour blind, when I asked what he did at traffic lights he replied that if the top one was lit it was red, if the bottom one was lit it was green!
Please note, that doesnt always work on the railways.

It doesn't always work on the roads, for example see the stick on the left here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you really think you can distinguish a C from an E, or a D from a B, or a K from an R at that speed? Or -> from <- ?

If for whatever reason it was desired to adapt the theatre route indicator system to high speed operation, symbols would probably be used - triangle, square, cross, circle, etc

 

[valenta]

This is ridiculous.

I'm not fit enough to join the Marines. Do the marines therefore discriminate against unfit people? I'm not clever enough to go to Oxbridge. Do those unis discriminate against stupid people?

Colourblind people are physically capable of driving a train if railway signalling was accessible, tests for the Royal Marines cannot be made accessible as this would defeat the purpose, those who do not pass or not physically capable of becoming a marine.

 

[455driver]

Colourblind people are physically capable of driving a train if railway signalling was accessible, tests for the Royal Marines cannot be made accessible as this would defeat the purpose, those who do not pass or not physically capable of becoming a marine.

They were changed a few years ago so there would be more chance of women passing them, something that was virtually impossible with the old (harder) tests.

 

[valenta]

Unless a desire to drive a train is side effect of colour blindness, I stand by my statement that the problem you are trying to solve only affects a very small group of people.

You can't label colourblind people who want to be train drivers a tiny group of people without having statistical evidence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They were changed a few years ago so there would be more chance of women passing them, something that was virtually impossible with the old (harder) tests.

Yes but there is a difference between making something completely accessible and a little bit less hard.

 

[455driver]

Colourblind people are physically capable of driving a train if railway signalling was accessible, tests for the Royal Marines cannot be made accessible as this would defeat the purpose, those who do not pass or not physically capable of becoming a marine.

I have a steady hand and good eyesight (okay the rest of me is knackered but thats not relevant) so why cant I be a brain surgeon?

Not everyone is suitable for every job, life isnt 'fair' and never can be.

 

[EM2]

Someone might know this. There are many strange and unusual train sim mods around, has anyone modified one of the commercially available train simulator games to use different signals? Maybe try that and let us know how you get on

 

[valenta]

I have a steady hand and good eyesight (okay the rest of me is knackered but thats not relevant) so why cant I be a brain surgeon?

Not everyone is suitable for every job, life isnt 'fair' and never can be.

Presumably you can't be a brain surgeon because you don't have sufficient expertise/knowledge to become one - if you had your heart set on becoming a brain surgeon then you would eventually be able to become one. With a colourblind train driver, they can have the expertise/knowledge to become a train driver but are still prevented because of the railway signalling system.

 

[jopsuk]

On the roads, it is generally considered acceptable to let the colour blind drive as light signals are rarer, other than odd subsidiary signals they're always the same three lamp layout and in thick fog drivers that cannot tell what colour they are seeing would simply be expected to slow down more until they can determine the position.

On the railways, on many lines drivers are constantly observing signals. Even excluding modern designs where the same "lamp" (not technically correct) can display all three colours, as far as I understand drivers would normally be expected to drive on the colour, not the position, of the signals they can see in reduced visibility.

I would expect that the Colour Blind Awareness Organisation are fully accepting of this position.

 

[cf111]

Colour-light signals are the way they are because they're easy to recognise at speed. If you're screaming towards something at 125 MPH then it's an awful lot easier and quicker for your brain to go "that is green, I can keep going at this speed" or "that is double-yellow, I need to start braking." (Or "that is red, oh f**k" )

If you replace this with something symbol based, it would be more difficult for you to recognise what the symbol was at speed and for you to be certain what that symbol means. Block colours are unambiguous in comparison and therefore safer.

Added on to this you then would have the immense cost of replacing almost every signal on the network before re-training every driver, signaller, dispatcher and probably a lot more. Of course this would ultimately be footed by the travelling public and for these reasons I'm afraid your idea is a non-starter.

 

[najaB]

You can't label colour blind people who want to be train drivers a tiny group of people without having statistical evidence.

You've already given all the statistical evidence that's required: it's a comparatively small number of people who want to be train drivers in the first place. And the majority of people who apply to be train drivers fail at the Psychometric Testing or Manager Interview, which means that only 8% of a small number will fail at the medical stage due to being colour blind.

 

[valenta]

You've already given all the statistical evidence that's required: it's a comparatively small number of people who want to be train drivers in the first place. And the majority of people who apply to be train drivers fail at the Psychometric Testing or Manager Interview, which means that only 8% of a small number will fail at the medical stage due to being colour blind.

8% remains quite a high percentage.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If you replace this with something symbol based, it would be more difficult for you to recognise what the symbol was at speed and for you to be certain what that symbol means. Block colours are unambiguous in comparison and therefore safer.

Absolutely correct, I was referring solely to route indicators and do not believe that coloured lights should be replaced with symbols.

Come to think of it, aren't harbour lights suitable for high speed use and colourblind drivers?

 

[najaB]

8% remains quite a high percentage.

8% of a small number is an even smaller number.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This document posits that something like 86% of candidates don't make it past the initial sift, and a further 10% fail the tests. This means that of every 1000 people who apply for a train driver's job, at most 8 will be colour blind.

I'd call 8 out of 1000 applicants (assuming they are otherwise fit) a non-problem in comparison to the costs involved in changing the entire signalling system.

 

[EM2]

From this link: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labour-market-statistics/august-2014/statistical-bulletin.html
There are 30.6m people employed in the UK. The proportion of people aged 16-64 employed is 73%. There are therefore 41.91m people eligible for work.
Let's assume 1% of them apply to be train drivers. That's 419,100 people. Let's assume that 50% of them are male. That leaves 209,550 people. Let's also assume that 1 in 12 of them are colourblind, that leaves 17,463 people unable to drive trains.
That's really not very many at all.

In light of najaB's figures, if 419,100 people apply, and eight out of every thousand are colour blind, that's 3,352 people...

 

[Qwerty133]

On the same basis, does the highways network also discriminate against colourblind people?

No it doesn't, couler blind people are allowed to drive.

I'm not a ballet dancer... I would never be given the chance to be a ballet dancer... thats not discrimination it's a fact...

I'm sure you'd be able to find a local ballet group that'd be happy to teach you if you looked hard enough

And it's impossible to become a pilot if you're blind. It's unfortunate for those people, but there's no way that it makes any kind of sense to spend billions of pounds to fix a problem that only affects dozens of people.

Agreed, however doesn't stop it happening in other situations

Can you imagine the fun a colour blind Electrician, Signal Technician or Cable Jointer would have.

They'd find other ways, and I believe there are couler blind electricitans

Maybe there should be 'paradriving' of trains with lots of different classifications of ability. Then everybody can become a traindriver just as anybody determined enough can compete in the Olympics.
Not sure that many passengers (even colour blind ones) would be all that keen to travel on trains driven by people with limited faculties though.

Seriously...

Do Explosive Ordnance Disposal companies discriminate against colourblind people?

"No, I said cut the GREEN wire!"

**BOOM!**

No they'd say cut the left wire... it's called adapting, plus if he wasn't sure he would check with someone else

Even with ETCS colour blindness will still be an issue, what about sections where hand signalling is being used?

Hand signalling only occurs at low speeds, so signs saying Stop and Go could be used.

But not all colourblind people are blind to the same colours. Whilst red/green blindness is the most common, there is also blue/yellow blindness and also conditions such as monochromacy, where sufferers cannot differentiate any colours at all.
What system can be devised that accommodate all these different conditions, and be usable at high speed as well as inclement conditions?
Do you really think you can distinguish a C from an E, or a D from a B, or a K from an R at that speed? Or -> from <- ?

True, and this is where the railway could adapt.

This is ridiculous.

I'm not fit enough to join the Marines. Do the marines therefore discriminate against unfit people? I'm not clever enough to go to Oxbridge. Do those unis discriminate against stupid people?

I believe a post a few months ago did show one of the armed forces to have stupid rules.

They were changed a few years ago so there would be more chance of women passing them, something that was virtually impossible with the old (harder) tests.

I believe the tests to become a fire fighter or police officer have lower pass marks for females to increase the numbers of females. If it's safe for a female at the lower pass mark, surely it's safe for a male.

You can't label colourblind people who want to be train drivers a tiny group of people without having statistical evidence.

This is where you lose credibility.

I have a steady hand and good eyesight (okay the rest of me is knackered but thats not relevant) so why cant I be a brain surgeon?

Not everyone is suitable for every job, life isnt 'fair' and never can be.

No reason why you couldn't if you got the neseccery training and experience.
However the ishihara test is a terrible test, and if the lighting is anything like that at my opticians (a windowless room with one light), I can't see the results being that acturate, and it probably gives false positives. I also doubt the accuracy of said test anyway

 

[najaB]

No they'd say cut the left wire... it's called adapting, plus if he wasn't sure he would check with someone else...

Nice way to adapt - double the number of people at risk...

 

[Qwerty133]

Nice way to adapt - double the number of people at risk...

If someone is able to tell him, which to cut they must know which wire is which, as I can't see homemade bombs having wires in set colours. In fact it really wouldn't surprise me if many bombs only had one colour of wire in them.

 

[najaB]

In fact it really wouldn't surprise me if many bombs only had one colour of wire in them.

But how would you be able to have the tense "Red or green, damnit!" moment? Most bombs probably don't have that many wires to start with.

Getting back to the topic, it really is a non-problem compared to the costs involved to fix it.

 

[cf111]

There's a reason we don't use signs saying "stop" and "go" - block colours are easier to read at speed and therefore safer, which is the primary objective of signalling after all.

 

[valenta]

This is where you lose credibility.

It depends what you mean by the definition of tiny, the poster I was responding to stated earlier that I was only talking about "dozens" of people, therefore I assumed his was what he meant by "tiny".

 

[455driver]

I'm sure you'd be able to find a local ballet group that'd be happy to teach you if you looked hard enough

Why do you need to look hard to be a ballet dancer?
Are you saying only Martin Kemp lookalikes need to apply?





Yes i know what you meant!

 

[TheEdge]

Do the railways discriminate against colourblind people? Yes.

Its it reasonable to accept that an industry in which the most basic, effective and widespread safety system is based on differentiating between red and green should discriminate on that? Yes

Is in cab signalling going to solve it? No. Because even with in cab signalling there needs to be a basic back up in the event of failure, and I bet it will remain red and green flags and lamps.

 

[HSTEd]

I think its more likely the backup would involve tokens.

 

[the sniper]

If someone is able to tell him, which to cut they must know which wire is which, as I can't see homemade bombs having wires in set colours. In fact it really wouldn't surprise me if many bombs only had one colour of wire in them.

What if they're telling them over the phone/radio and the wires are coloured differently...

Thread of the year. 10 out of 10.

 

[Tomnick]

I think its more likely the backup would involve tokens.

I doubt it - there's very little use for tokens now on the national network. Some (not sure whether any remain) were colour-coded to help differentiate them from adjacent sections' tokens though . They certainly have no use as a short-term 'backup' system, now or historically, though, and the principles only really apply to single lines anyway. Far more likely that we'll continue with some variant of temporary block working and single line working - complete with handsignalmen with their handsignals of various colours!

 

[carriageline]

I doubt it - there's very little use for tokens now on the national network. Some (not sure whether any remain) were colour-coded to help differentiate them from adjacent sections' tokens though . They certainly have no use as a short-term 'backup' system, now or historically, though, and the principles only really apply to single lines anyway. Far more likely that we'll continue with some variant of temporary block working and single line working - complete with handsignalmen with their handsignals of various colours!

Careful, this is the same bloke who suggests trains should "nudge" trollies out the way.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tomnick]

Perhaps the colour of the trolley makes a difference?