Strengthening seaside trains in Summer

[455driver]

The old BR ploy - put fares up or make a service bad enough and the passengers will go away. I thought we didn't do that anymore (unless your post was tongue in cheek ) ?

Aside from that, it's clear that nationally there is not enough rolling stock to accommodate burgeoning demand for rail travel. Unfortunately as long as the purse strings are controlled from London nothing will change.

Very much so!
What people cannot get into their thick heads is that there is no spare stock available where and when it is needed, to hire in stock is very expensive and is not cost effective in the long term.

 

[6Gman]

Obviously Northern don't want to lease any more stock. There is stock available but northern don't want to upset the shareholders. I wonder how many of them travel in the cattle trains that pay for their chauffeured limousines?

I think I'm right in saying that Abellio is owned by the Dutch government, so no shareholders there.

Serco has shareholders who are currently receiving around 2.9% per annum on their investment. Hardly excessive. Hardly enough to fund chauffeured limousines ........

But why let the facts get in the way of a rant.

 

[Whistler40145]

Abellio is owned by Nederlandse Spoorwegen, so indirectly it's owned by the Dutch Government.

 

[scarby]

What people cannot get into their thick heads is that there is no spare stock available where and when it is needed, to hire in stock is very expensive and is not cost effective in the long term.

Yes, how "thick" of the travelling public to think that there might actually be stock provision to strengthen/run extra services to deal with seasonal demand, as there was for practically the entire history of British commercial railway operations until about 20 years ago.

 

[Masbroughlad]

The old BR ploy - put fares up or make a service bad enough and the passengers will go away. I thought we didn't do that anymore (unless your post was tongue in cheek ) ?

Aside from that, it's clear that nationally there is not enough rolling stock to accommodate burgeoning demand for rail travel. Unfortunately as long as the purse strings are controlled from London nothing will change.

Very much so!
What people cannot get into their thick heads is that there is no spare stock available where and when it is needed, to hire in stock is very expensive and is not cost effective in the long term.

Not a case of being thick. It is actually quite clever to understand that it economics say match supply with demand.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The age of stock probably has to be factored in, some classes like the 442s are in effect life expired without massive spending on a new traction package, probably an internal rewire, and whatever else, it's probably cheaper for any TOC to go for a new build then payout for all that work.

I think I saw somewhere in the forums that some of the 15x classes are starting to show some structual problems so some of them might have to be scrapped in the next few years.

There definitely needs to be new EMUs built, some high speed electric trains for the main lines that are being electrified and some DMUs built (not too many) to cover the transition on lines from non-electrified to electrified. The DMUs need to be very modular so that the diesel engine and traction package modules can be replaced with an electric traction package as more lines get electrified.

As a stop gap could some routes use a loco-hauled train (top&tail) to strengthen capacity, even if it's just on routes to seaside towns and perhaps only at certain times of the day?

 

[21C101]

This is something that with a bit of forethought could be quite easily sorted, especially once the electrification in the next few years is complete.

For example, ex southern region TOCs have dozens of comfortable air conditioned electrostars and turbostars sitting around unused every weekend. I suspect northern/midlands TOCs with significant commuter flows do too.

They could be spot hired for weekends to other TOCs.

It would need a certain amount of logistics to do (possible some additional route training to drive them between depots) but if the will was there it would be quite practical as well as carrots and sticks in the franchise to provide the incentive to do so.

And not just on seaside routes. The main intercity routes have commuter trains standing idle at the southern end of the same route. If I had the choice of a packed out intercity train where I would travel standing half way across England or a slower relief train comprising an electrostar, I would jump at the electrostar.

This is not just a post privatisation issue.

The Southern railway and BR(SR) had hundreds of carriages sitting around in places like Eardley Road Sidings in Streatham most of the year to be used on holiday weekend and charter/special work, Beeching worked out that most did about 10 trips a year and scrapped them all.

Meanwhile they had hundreds of EMUs sitting around all weekend doing nothing.

EMUs like 4CORs were not greatly different aesthetically and in seating standard to maunsell loco hauled carriages If they had built the EMUs to be compatible also with loco haulage they could have increased their profits significantly.

 

[yorksrob]

The Southern railway and BR(SR) had hundreds of carriages sitting around in places like Eardley Road Sidings in Streatham most of the year to be used on holiday weekend and charter/special work, Beeching worked out that most did about 10 trips a year and scrapped them all.

Meanwhile they had hundreds of EMUs sitting around all weekend doing nothing.

EMUs like 4CORs were not greatly different aesthetically and in seating standard to maunsell loco hauled carriages If they had built the EMUs to be compatible also with loco haulage they could have increased their profits significantly.

Some very good points. I think generally peak/off peak demand is rather less elastic outside of the South East sitting spare. That said, TOCs seem to have difficulty combattinb Saturday evening overcrowding which occurs every weekend when there seems to be a lot of spare stock sitting idle, so I suspect there is a disincentive in the track access regime to TOCs using stock more effectively.

 

[northwichcat]

An observation from today. Both Mid-Cheshire services I travelled on today were packed 2 car 142s (which weren't part of the same diagram) and I saw that 2 diagrams were 4 car 150s, not sure what was running the fifth Mid-Cheshire diagram. Wouldn't it be better to have the Pacers running around in pairs and the 150s on their own, given the 150s have greater capacity?

 

[Simon11]

Some people here need to do some revenue, staffing and cost analysis.

The first point is that, TOC's have limited number of staff and they would be better used focusing their effort on weekday timetable work, rather than dealing with summer weekends, of which there are only a few a year, which are unpredictable.

Unless passengers are actually getting left behind, the only additional revenue from doubling sets, will be from "suppressed demand". i.e. people who would have travel, but know that the trains will be full, so travel via another method. The number of people will be tiny. Also take into account, that when there is poor weather, there will be no revenue benefit, but still the same cost.

Going onto the cost, assuming that the unit isn't required for maintenance, we have: track mileage, extra staffing costs, additional preparation time, more wear & tear etc

To add, also worth considering that you bring in an extra unit, which travels 10 hours on the day, but it will only actually be required to handle the overcrowding for an hour.

 

[455driver]

Obviously Northern don't want to lease any more stock. There is stock available but northern don't want to upset the shareholders. I wonder how many of them travel in the cattle trains that pay for their chauffeured limousines?

There is stock available is there?
Go on then tell us what it is!

 

[tony6499]

Very much so!
What people cannot get into their thick heads is that there is no spare stock available where and when it is needed, to hire in stock is very expensive and is not cost effective in the long term.

Not that much spare crew sitting around in depots either to work these extra trains

 

[PHILIPE]

An observation from today. Both Mid-Cheshire services I travelled on today were packed 2 car 142s (which weren't part of the same diagram) and I saw that 2 diagrams were 4 car 150s, not sure what was running the fifth Mid-Cheshire diagram. Wouldn't it be better to have the Pacers running around in pairs and the 150s on their own, given the 150s have greater capacity?

That is the pattern on the Cardiff Valleys. Pacers in pairs and 150s singly.

 

[sd0733]

Saturdays are becoming a real problem on all the routes I work due to overcrowding and I don't work within about 150 miles of the seaside. People just seem to be decided to go out at by train in general at weekends. Looking from the outside its easy to say 'put more coaches on' as pretty much every every single passenger says, as there's obviously a yard full somewhere. If it was that simple then the TOCs I'm sure would be in favor hugely as all this overcrowding causes poor publicity, loss in revenue outside barriered areas as no-one can get through trains and I'm sure a fair old bill must rack up at weekends from delays caused by passengers being unable to board and slowing stations dwell time hugely.
The problem is its not simply supply and demand as most industries would be. Firstly, The costs of carting these units (people have mentioned spare in London so to the vast majority of the country are useless as DC only) round to get them to places to do these trains, a, costs money and, b, uses drivers which should be working sat who now can't as they've worked friday night fetching a unit to get it in place for saturday. Your train on the saturday now has 6 coaches instead of 2 but it sits in the platform and ends up cancelled as there is no driver now available to work it as all were doing stock moves. Also, the stock which isn't used on weekends could be being maintained and the extra mileage put on it on a weekend could push it to needing an exam come monday morning and then you have a peak commuter train shortformed/cancelled instead. Also it needs to get back to where its needed for mon morning adding further complications/staffing and cost.
Yes, ideally more could be done and I think it is becoming a bit of a PR disaster on some routes but practically and realistically with the current resources and limitations there isn't a huge amount that the present resources of stock or staff can do. If the government were at all interested in the issue and it was written into franchises with an adequate subsidy then more could be done but as its not then the TOCs are doing what they're paid to do and that's run a train with a specified number of coaches and when it boils down that's what the government want TOCs to provide otherwise they would have specified the extras in the franchise to start with.

 

[TOCDriver]

There is stock available is there?
Go on then tell us what it is!

lol There is absolutely no suitable stock available for Northern anywhere on earth.

 

[scarby]

So: how come in 1977, when Scarborough FC were in the FA Trophy final, British Rail managed to "find" 6 ten-coach football specials with all the staff to man them, yet in 2014 the railways of the 21st century can't even sort out some extra trains and staff to deal with extra summer demand?

It really is lamentable, and "lament" is the apt word for it. This is not progress.

 

[samj]

150226/142084 on the Blackpool South-Colne diagram today.

 

[Leylandlad]

So: how come in 1977, when Scarborough FC were in the FA Trophy final, British Rail managed to "find" 6 ten-coach football specials with all the staff to man them, yet in 2014 the railways of the 21st century can't even sort out some extra trains and staff to deal with extra summer demand?

It really is lamentable, and "lament" is the apt word for it. This is not progress.

Have you forgotten that BR was "deeply inefficient" according to John Major? It had rolling stock sitting in sidings for days on end doing nothing etc...according to the Daily Wail.

Seriously though, Scotrail is getting grief at the moment for strengthening Glasgow area services at the expense of Edinburgh area...:roll:

I would suggest that in 1977 BR borrowed a few coaches from elsewhere to run those extras. Pre internet, passengers charter et al, no one knew any different.

The railways, like a lot of other things in our lives, looked better with the rose tinted specs on...reality was very different.

 

[IanXC]

So: how come in 1977, when Scarborough FC were in the FA Trophy final, British Rail managed to "find" 6 ten-coach football specials with all the staff to man them, yet in 2014 the railways of the 21st century can't even sort out some extra trains and staff to deal with extra summer demand?

It really is lamentable, and "lament" is the apt word for it. This is not progress.

So just to take Saturdays at Scarborough for a second... Do the:

5 additional TP shuttles between York and Scarborough
The EM service to St Pancreas (of at least 5 coaches)
And services to Sheffield via Hull (strengthened mostly to 4 coaches)

Not count?

 

[DarloRich]

So: how come in 1977, when Scarborough FC were in the FA Trophy final, British Rail managed to "find" 6 ten-coach football specials with all the staff to man them, yet in 2014 the railways of the 21st century can't even sort out some extra trains and staff to deal with extra summer demand?

It really is lamentable, and "lament" is the apt word for it. This is not progress.

eh?

BR had lots of under utilised stock. The TOC's dont. They cant afford to have stock sat for most of the week doing nothing simple to service a one off demand. Simple really.

 

[yorksrob]

Incidentally, I was on the Settle - Carlisle yesterday, and a couple of the trains I caught which are usually strengthened (double 158 or 158/153) seemed to be single 158's.

Was definately quite cosy !

 

[Whistler40145]

I was on the DalesRail two weeks ago & services from Leeds-Carlisle-Leeds were 153+158 & that's a Sunday, maybe their strengthened for ramblers/walkers.

 

[northwichcat]

There is stock available is there?
Go on then tell us what it is!

Well Northern had a couple of 150s stabled at Stockport sidings yesterday, which weren't in passenger use and weren't in maintenance.

 

[Whistler40145]

I was on the DalesRail two weeks ago & services from Leeds-Carlisle-Leeds were 153+158 & that's a Sunday, maybe their strengthened for ramblers/walkers.

Also, whilst passing Preston, 2 156s were sat adjacent to the Royal Mail Platform.

 

[infobleep]

What they need to do is nominate weekends which will be strengthened and tell passengers. On a particular weekend passengers will then expect a better service. Rotate this around the regions so different regions get extra strengthening at different weekends. Bit like the old holiday trains that use to run and just like the tour de France, except it's a different region each weekend.

Of course it can't be done during the week but it's something. As for the staff. Well they managed to get then for the tour de France so hopefully they could get them for other weekends too.

Now someone please tell me why the tour de France trains couldn't occur every weekend. I guess maintenance is one such issue. You can forget maintenance for one weekend but not every weekend.

 

[infobleep]

Very much so!
What people cannot get into their thick heads is that there is no spare stock available where and when it is needed, to hire in stock is very expensive and is not cost effective in the long term.

Who cares about the long term. All that matters is the short term.

 

[CC 72100]

There are a few problem with 'designating' certain trains to be strengthened on certain days:

- Summer weekend traffic is weather dependent. Schedules have to be done weeks in advance, weather cannot be.

- As a result, what if you end up putting on all the extra capacity to Margate (random example) on the day when it's a complete washout?

- Who is going to pay for the extra stock/staff? Is it really going to persuade a whole more train load of people to come?

- Who is going to crew the ECS moves between region? Is this going to take place on say a Friday, leaving the host TOC short on a weekday?

- Can we even get same traction to operate in different areas? Ie. No point saying, 'oh look, we can use a few 159s to strengthen our trains to Great Yarmouth'.

- Do we even have the spare stock in the first place?

In short, it's a complete non-starter.

 

[455driver]

So: how come in 1977, when Scarborough FC were in the FA Trophy final, British Rail managed to "find" 6 ten-coach football specials with all the staff to man them, yet in 2014 the railways of the 21st century can't even sort out some extra trains and staff to deal with extra summer demand?

It really is lamentable, and "lament" is the apt word for it. This is not progress.

Because BR had sidings full of fully depreciated 90mph mark 1s just sat there for when they were needed. Unfortunately then the accountants took over and saw this stock as a liability as it had no booked work but had to be maintained so it was all sent for scrap to save a few quid.

They also had quite a few freight engines that were not needed at weekends to haul them at a minutes notice as well.

Nowadays there is no spare stock and a lot of maintenance takes place at weekends so that the maximum amount of stock is available during the week meaning there is less stock is available. I wont mention the stupid way running trains is costed these days!

 

[Manchester77]

Because BR had sidings full of fully depreciated 90mph mark 1s just sat there for when they were needed. Unfortunately then the accountants took over and saw this stock as a liability as it had no booked work but had to be maintained so it was all sent for scrap to save a few quid.

And any coaches we do have sat in sidings are usually rusted solid and have weeds growing through the floor!

 

[JonathanH]

Well Northern had a couple of 150s stabled at Stockport sidings yesterday, which weren't in passenger use and weren't in maintenance.

There are always trains in Stockport sidings at the weekend but what you have to remember is that in not being utilised, it pushes back the point at which they *do* need to be maintained in the overall maintenance schedule. So maintenence is a reason not to use them at the weekend.