Removing unathorised people from seats

[Trains06]

The last time I was unable to use my reserved seat I upgraded to Weekend First, and after complaining to Virgin got my ticket and the First upgrade refunded.

This.

For better or worse most TMs/Guards will not issue fines/delay the train for BTP backup for people sitting in reserved seats. Should there be something TMs can do without facing repercussions from management for people refusing to move from reserved seats? Yes. Is there? No. Possibly a move to first if it is appropriate.

Customer Relations on the other hand will likely retrospectively issue you a refund/partial refund.

 

[DarloRich]

Virgin are claiming on their FB page that staff do not have the power to remove people from a seat they are illegitimately (ie reserved for someone else) occupying. Is this the case? Surely as a by-law offence they do have the power, or do staff now not have the power to enforce by-laws? If so that, is a whole can of worms being opened.

Surely no one is expecting a Virgin guard to put a passenger in a head lock and drag them bodily from the train for sitting in a reserved seat. :roll:

 

[Parallel]

A guard the other day was saying that she asked a man on a service that was standing room only to remove his bag from the seat so someone else could sit down, and he was quite aggressive about it... I don't get it, surely you should realise and show respect to anyone standing up to offer the seat or move your bag in the first place, but then getting funny about it when the guard asks you to move it... It's not on really.
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On the subject of reservations, people sitting in reserved seats that they didn't reserve do have my sympathy on crush loaded trains, as if whoever reserved them manages to squeeze through to ask them to move... Where are they meant to stand? I guess this is why some TOCs offer compensation to those who have booked seats but can't get to them/sit in them.

I personally think we should get rid of seat reservations which get handed out free with advanced fares and do something like SWT do with a "sit in any vacant seat" system which I think is much fairer IMO.

 

[IanD]

What a silly argument re people who need seats should reserve them. What happens if the person doesn't know what time train they will be catching?

Then they should sit in an empty, unreserved seat or ask someone in the priority seats provided for such passengers to shift. Or get off and wait for a train with available seats. They shouldn't just take it upon themselves to commandeer somone else's seat.

 

[talltim]

Not my problem. If you're not capable of standing then you need to take steps to sort yourself out.

There's a slight problem with that....

 

[170401]

Feet on seats is never acceptable on my train but especially in the winter time when there is lots of salt on the platforms. This salt is easily transferred to the seats and as ours are dark blue this is very obvious.

I have on occasion put people off my train for feat on seats after suitable warnings and would also do so as a last resort for unauthorised occupation of reserved seats.

I'm curious about how you go about putting people off trains. Do you use force or just tell them to leave? What do you do to maintain your integrity in the face of other passengers if they refuse to go?

I'm not having a go, just curious as to how others in the job manage these situations and retain the respect of other passengers.

The reason I ask is I've often seen situations descend into 'big man' style incidents where the train gets delayed and situations become very hostile (probably why most guards tend to avoid them). BTP are largely a waste of space unless you are lucky enough to be close to a Burger King and with most passengers these days sitting with a camera in their pockets how do you prevent yourself becoming the next youtube sensation?

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's a slight problem with that....

If you're in a wheelchair you normally have to book ahead anyway

 

[GodAtum]

A guard the other day was saying that she asked a man on a service that was standing room only to remove his bag from the seat so someone else could sit down
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That does not happen that much in London, maybe because the guy would get punched first lol

 

[Flamingo]

Bags on a seat are not a problem, I just pick them up and move them. I will already have given whoever owns it more thamn adequate notice that this will be the outcome.

If one wishes to remove the same passenger from the train, taking their bag and putting it on the platform (taking due care for the contents) usually results in them exiting the train to retrieve it, in which case the doors can be shut after they exit.

Usually, if a polite request to exit the train dies not have the same effect, then holding the train for police is the only option. Most managers have a screaming fit at the delay minutes, so they would prefer if the passenger remained on board and the train moved, regardless of whatever they had done or however they have behaved.

The railway by-laws are quite comprehensive in their breath and scope when it comes to both the behavior expected by passengers in pretty-much all circumstances, and the requirement for passengers to pay for the service provided. Unfortunately, there is little appetite for providing the resources and dealing with the issues involved in implementation of said by-laws.

If I held a train to remove a passenger who refused to vacate a seat, I would be called in for a chat (without coffee) to ask why I hadn't found the other passenger a seat elsewhere on the train (including 1st class) if that was what it took to keep the train on time. In one sense, big-picture wise this is correct. Even bigger-picture wise, this is totally wrong, as the message it sends out for next time is "Be stroppy, it works".

 

[jon0844]

Yup. I really feel for you guys (and many others working in similar conditions).

It's not happened overnight, but gradually over time more and more people 'know their rights' and have discovered that if you should loud enough, you get your way.

And that will become standard for the next generation and beyond until someone says enough is enough.

I've said it before, but in the USA they'll be very kind and friendly to you (even if some of it is clearly fake) up until a certain point. Cross the line and you'll find they'll stop being friendly, and anyone around you will be fully on their side.

We need more stings, whether for revenue duties or any other anti-social behaviour. As I've suggested, you don't need to do it THAT often for the message to get through.

Once you make such things unacceptable, they'll stop (or reduce) and half your problems go away.

Otherwise we'll see more and more people take action themselves, often putting themselves in danger, and if you look at all the photos on social media, it's pretty clear and obvious that people are angry about these people getting away with it - but mostly don't want to get involved (possibly good advice).

 

[Bodiddly]

Today I was travelling on the 10.05 Newcastle to Liverpool TPE consisting of a three car class 185. I and my fellow companions were put in the ridiculous situation of already being in our seats a good 10 minutes before the customer host came along and started reserving all the seats in coach C. I noticed mine was to be taken at Durham. Just before the doors opened at Durham, I moved to find another seat, ending up in the priority seat for the elderly and infirm. I did this because I would have been quite embarrassed to be told I was sitting in someone's seat. I think the reservation system should be scrapped as there were vacant reserved seats during that journey today. And before anyone asks, of course I would have given up my seat for someone more deserving!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Virgin are claiming on their FB page that staff do not have the power to remove people from a seat they are illegitimately (ie reserved for someone else) occupying. Is this the case? Surely as a by-law offence they do have the power, or do staff now not have the power to enforce by-laws? If so that, is a whole can of worms being opened.

It would help if the displays on pendolinos actually said where the seats were reserved from and to rather than just reading "RESERVED". You tend to have the farcical situation of a "RESERVED" seat being vacant all the way from Euston when it might only be reserved between Crewe and Wilmslow!

 

[Domh245]

It would help if the displays on pendolinos actually said where the seats were reserved from and to rather than just reading "RESERVED". You tend to have the farcical situation of a "RESERVED" seat being vacant all the way from Euston when it might only be reserved between Crewe and Wilmslow!

As far as I can tell, if someone is boarding later, and has reserved seats, the system will show that eg: "Reserved from Milton Keynes Central" but they don't show where they are reserved until, so it becomes a bit of a case of, if it is reserved and no one is sat in it, they have either missed their train, got off already, or are sat somewhere else!

 

[Katketty]

Reading through this thread reminded me of a video I saw a while back. In it a man is accused of not having a ticket and refuses to leave the train when confronted by the guard. Eventually a member of the public offers his assistance to remove the man from the train and the guard agrees.

The guard in this case didn't want to resort to forcibly removing the man from the train but was open to allowing a member of the public to do so. This situation is different to that of someone occupying a reserved seat however when is the use of force justified?

Is it correct to forcibly remove someone for fare dodging? What about occupying a reserved seat or having their feet up on the seats? When a verbal warning or order isn't enough, then when is it acceptable to escalate your approach?

In the video I assume the passengers are glad to get rid of the fare dodger and continue their journey without further delay however do we welcome the intervention of passengers?

 

[theshillito]

If you think the TOCs have trouble enforcing actual bylaws, try enforcing "quiet carriages" where no bylaw exists.

 

[reb0118]

I'm curious about how you go about putting people off trains. Do you use force or just tell them to leave? What do you do to maintain your integrity in the face of other passengers if they refuse to go?

I'm not having a go, just curious as to how others in the job manage these situations and retain the respect of other passengers.

The reason I ask is I've often seen situations descend into 'big man' style incidents where the train gets delayed and situations become very hostile (probably why most guards tend to avoid them). BTP are largely a waste of space unless you are lucky enough to be close to a Burger King and with most passengers these days sitting with a camera in their pockets how do you prevent yourself becoming the next youtube sensation?

I have not used force or the threat of force (physical) in over ten years (possibly longer).

Firstly, I find if you regularly patrol your train you can nip any anti social behaviour in the bud. If that does not work then a firm warning to desist often helps, especially if complaints are received from fellow passengers. As a last resort when telling someone (or a group) to leave the train I normally state that the train will remain at the station until they disappear or the police come to remove them. When they realise that I am not bluffing they will usually leave themselves without further promting. I try to do this at stations where we have extra dwell time if possible to minimise delays. The BTP can be helpful but the problem is that there are too few of them.

Every situation is different (although most are a variation on a theme) and I suppose you make a judgement at the time - I don't always get it right.

Sometimes you have to let anti social behaviour go for the greater good. (e.g. you may have a tight connection to an airport service and any delay could risk that - you don't want to bugger up someone's holiday for the sake of a wee scote. That said don't do nothing at the very least report it).

Having a good working relationship with your colleagues and regular passengers can pay dividends too.

 

[Antman]

Reading through this thread reminded me of a video I saw a while back. In it a man is accused of not having a ticket and refuses to leave the train when confronted by the guard. Eventually a member of the public offers his assistance to remove the man from the train and the guard agrees.

The guard in this case didn't want to resort to forcibly removing the man from the train but was open to allowing a member of the public to do so. This situation is different to that of someone occupying a reserved seat however when is the use of force justified?

Is it correct to forcibly remove someone for fare dodging? What about occupying a reserved seat or having their feet up on the seats? When a verbal warning or order isn't enough, then when is it acceptable to escalate your approach?

In the video I assume the passengers are glad to get rid of the fare dodger and continue their journey without further delay however do we welcome the intervention of passengers?

Yes I get the feeling it's just somebody wanting to show how 'hard' they are, would they have done the same if the ticketless person was a bit bigger?

Then again a lot of undesirable passengers know that rail staff won't attempt to physically remove them and they are unlikely to delay the train waiting for the police to arrive.

No easy answer to that one

 

[Flamingo]

I have not used force or the threat of force (physical) in over ten years (possibly longer).

Firstly, I find if you regularly patrol your train you can nip any anti social behaviour in the bud. If that does not work then a firm warning to desist often helps, especially if complaints are received from fellow passengers. As a last resort when telling someone (or a group) to leave the train I normally state that the train will remain at the station until they disappear or the police come to remove them. When they realise that I am not bluffing they will usually leave themselves without further promting. I try to do this at stations where we have extra dwell time if possible to minimise delays. The BTP can be helpful but the problem is that there are too few of them.

Every situation is different (although most are a variation on a theme) and I suppose you make a judgement at the time - I don't always get it right.

Sometimes you have to let anti social behaviour go for the greater good. (e.g. you may have a tight connection to an airport service and any delay could risk that - you don't want to bugger up someone's holiday for the sake of a wee scote. That said don't do nothing at the very least report it).

Having a good working relationship with your colleagues and regular passengers can pay dividends too.

Good post!

 

[strowger]

Today I was travelling on the 10.05 Newcastle to Liverpool TPE consisting of a three car class 185. I and my fellow companions were put in the ridiculous situation of already being in our seats a good 10 minutes before the customer host came along and started reserving all the seats in coach C.

On Crosscountry it's even worse - you get in to a set that's marked as available, and it becomes reserved *during the journey*.

Totally unacceptable way to treat customers.

 

[Jonfun]

On Crosscountry it's even worse - you get in to a set that's marked as available, and it becomes reserved *during the journey*.

Totally unacceptable way to treat customers.

That would only ever happen if the reservations hadn't downloaded at the start of the journey, which is a technical problem, not a deliberate attack on the customer.

If you're on about ten minute reservations, then they're never marked as available. They're marked as may be reserved en route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On Crosscountry it's even worse - you get in to a set that's marked as available, and it becomes reserved *during the journey*

Ten Minute Reservation seats are marked as "may be reserved". If someone decides to sit in the seat and take the risk, that's their problem.

The only time the reservations appear mid-journey is where there's been a problem in downloading the data at the start. That happens more often than it should, and is very annoying.

 

[170401]

I have not used force or the threat of force (physical) in over ten years (possibly longer).

Firstly, I find if you regularly patrol your train you can nip any anti social behaviour in the bud. If that does not work then a firm warning to desist often helps, especially if complaints are received from fellow passengers. As a last resort when telling someone (or a group) to leave the train I normally state that the train will remain at the station until they disappear or the police come to remove them. When they realise that I am not bluffing they will usually leave themselves without further promting. I try to do this at stations where we have extra dwell time if possible to minimise delays. The BTP can be helpful but the problem is that there are too few of them.

Every situation is different (although most are a variation on a theme) and I suppose you make a judgement at the time - I don't always get it right.

Sometimes you have to let anti social behaviour go for the greater good. (e.g. you may have a tight connection to an airport service and any delay could risk that - you don't want to bugger up someone's holiday for the sake of a wee scote. That said don't do nothing at the very least report it).

Having a good working relationship with your colleagues and regular passengers can pay dividends too.

Thanks for replying with a very insightful post! And kudos for being big enough to admit you don't always get it right

I find it difficult at times to juggle the right balance between enforcing the rules and keeping the respect of other passengers and find it can become a very fine line easily crossed. Their is very little tolerance these days to delays and I personally find it very hard to justify holding a train to eject someone or ask them to leave for a byelaw offence, indeed, if they then refuse to go and call your bluff you can then be left with either following through and waiting for police (More delays) or backing down and risk losing all credibility and respect from a very unforgiving travelling public.

My own view is that society's attitude these days is a far bigger problem than a solitary Guard can be expected to deal with but I also believe that if these trivial matters were dealt with seriously by TOCs and BTP then we'd have far less bigger issues to deal with as we'd regain the respect of the travelling public. As others have said in the thread, a few stings here and there with the backing of BTP would quickly bring people into line and get the message across.

 

[scotsman]

I can't force people to move, but if someone won't move I'll try to go out my way to help the affected passenger(s) - find them seats elsewhere, maybe give them a complimentary snack, apologise.

In one case two passengers told me that they would not move from their seats as the train was full, when the person who had actually reserved the seat turned up there was nothing I could do. However, two pregnant women boarded later on...guess who I asked to vacate their seats for them...

 

[jon0844]

How about asking the people in the seats if they'd like to go into first class, and then when they say yes, ask them to step out so they can let in the people who have the reservation and you'll sort out the necessary paperwork in a second.

Then once they're out and the right people are in, tell them how much they need to pay for first class. When they say they assumed you were letting them in for free, laugh and ask why they thought that.

Now they've lost their seats, you can say 'well in that case, you'll have to stay in standard', thank them (sarcastically) and walk on.

 

[Flamingo]

It's better to say loudly to the people who are being less stroppy - "Would you like to sit in First Class. It's where I was going to move these people to, but as they prefer these seats you had better have the First Class ones", and then stand your ground!

On one memorable occasion, the two I was clearing the seats for were looking for their seats as I had just kicked them out of First Class as they refused to upgrade on a Sunday ("You don't give free Coke, why should we pay for First Class?)

They came back telling me to "Do your damn job" and shift two people out of the seats they should have occupied 45 minutes earlier (there were plenty of seats) and I took great pleasure in asking the young couple sitting down could they move to First Class so Mr Angry and his fat ugly wife could have their reserved seats...

 

[Mugby]

A thought about this occurred to me recently when I travelled from Manchester to Sheffield on the South TPE service.

Given that most of these services are now 2xCl.170s and it's policy that the conductor travels in the rear unit, what's to stop anyone in the front unit sitting in first class after the train has departed?

If a row broke out amongst passengers in such a situation, who would diffuse it?

 

[Bishopstone]

A thought about this occurred to me recently when I travelled from Manchester to Sheffield on the South TPE service.

Given that most of these services are now 2xCl.170s and it's policy that the conductor travels in the rear unit, what's to stop anyone in the front unit sitting in first class after the train has departed?

If a row broke out amongst passengers in such a situation, who would diffuse it?

On your first point - presumably RPI or a ticket examiner/second guard, travelling in the first unit.

On your second point - this is no different to 'driver only' operations in the south east and elsewhere. Rows between passengers are relatively rare, but if they got out of hand someone would hit the emergency alarm, alert staff at the next station, or call BTP from a mobile. (Or, just as likely these days, tweet about it with accompanying photos!)

 

[jon0844]

Standard practice in an my emergency today is to Tweet about it (please take time to prepare a suitable hashtag in advance) and upload the video to YouTube.

Details on who to Tweet are displayed on safety notices situated throughout the train.

 

[Bishopstone]

Making sure to tweet the TOC also, moaning about fighting on their train with the hashtag #appallingservice

 

[Flamingo]

Standard practice in an my emergency today is to Tweet about it (please take time to prepare a suitable hashtag in advance) and upload the video to YouTube.

Details on who to Tweet are displayed on safety notices situated throughout the train.

Brilliant!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Making sure to tweet the TOC also, moaning about fighting on their train with the hashtag #appallingservice

I like this too!