Removing unathorised people from seats

[Bungle73]

Virgin are claiming on their FB page that staff do not have the power to remove people from a seat they are illegitimately (ie reserved for someone else) occupying. Is this the case? Surely as a by-law offence they do have the power, or do staff now not have the power to enforce by-laws? If so that, is a whole can of worms being opened.

 

[Yorkshirebelle]

I'm sure on the good old paper reservations (maybe Transpennine Express) I've seen two 'penalty' amounts, one being for the removal of the reservation and one for occupying the seat that is reserved!
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I'm sure on the good old paper reservations (maybe Transpennine Express) I've seen two 'penalty' amounts, one being for the removal of the reservation and one for occupying the seat that is reserved!

Sorry just ignore my post, I've read the original post correctly now

 

[bunnahabhain]

People can be asked to vacate seats, however nobody can be forcibly removed. You don't know whether they need to sit there for a disability or not.

 

[Trog]

Railway Bylaws 13, 19 and 24 seem to cover it, not only can they be removed from the seat, they can be ejected from the railway completely and fined.

13. Unauthorised access and loitering
(1) No person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:
(i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category.

(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

24. Enforcement
(1) Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(2) Removal of persons
(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.


A level 3 fine is currently £1000

 

[colchesterken]

I booked an advanced ticket direct with virgin, Not via a cheap agency. I requested a window seat as my main reason for using the train is to look at the world going by, in the car you are looking at the road and miss looking out
I got seat D6 which has a large plastic panel where the window should be, I moved to a non booked seat but moved back when the train got busy as people would not have sat in my "reserved" seat as soon as the rush cleared I moved back to a non booked vacent window seat

 

[Bishopstone]

I suppose what staff are legally empowered to do, and what it is wise to attempt in the prevailing circumstances, can elicit very different answers.

I've only witnessed one physical ejection from a train, and he was a teen boy - a fair bit smaller than the Guard....

In this particular case, the first step would surely be to talk to the offenders, point out their discourtesy and (if necessary) the by-law offence, and politely ask them to move. Whether it went any further would depend, practically, on how big/intoxicated they were, and their strength in numbers. Nobody should be expected to put their welfare at risk for the sake of a seat reservation dispute.
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People can be asked to vacate seats, however nobody can be forcibly removed. You don't know whether they need to sit there for a disability or not.

I don't see how disability is relevant here. If seat reservations are available, anyone unable to stand can and should reserve, and not occupy the reserved seat of someone who may have done so because THEY are unable to stand.

 

[David Goddard]

Yet at the same time, I heard an announcement on Virgin last week stating that Advance ticket holders must use the seat they have reserved, so if someone is already in it, how can they enforce the former?

 

[jon0844]

If you are stupid enough to say on Facebook that you can't or won't move anyone from a reserved seat, why won't everyone just sit in a reserved seat and say 'and what are you going to do about it?' to everyone?

Seems like a really stupid thing to admit to.

 

[bb21]

AFAIK, Virgin are not the only one with this policy, and certainly not the only one willing to admit it either.

 

[185143]

I was on an ATW train once, a few years ago where two enthusiasts were arguing about 'the rules of bashing'(!!) A few passengers had complained to the guard as there were several families nearby. When he checked their tickets he asked If they has scratched Chester off their list, when both of them said they hadn't, the reply was 'Good, because that's where you're getting off!'

 

[LowLevel]

Regrettably in the 21st century things fall on the side of the offender, even as a 6 ft plus 16 stone guard I'd not physically remove a **** in case I broke a fingernail or his neck in the meantime.

 

[rebmcr]

If you are stupid enough to say on Facebook that you can't or won't move anyone from a reserved seat, why won't everyone just sit in a reserved seat and say 'and what are you going to do about it?' to everyone?

Seems like a really stupid thing to admit to.

Just because they're not being physically shifted, doesn't mean they're not gonna get fined.

 

[the sniper]

The byelaws empower railway staff to do a lot of things. TOC policies serve to disempower railway staff to the point where enforcing any kind of laws or principles is virtually impossible and trying to do so only risks a person loosing their job.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. The scroats out there get a hell of a shock when they think they know the game but come across a Guard, or more usually an assisting Driver, that doesn't give a damn about a TOCs PR policies and enforces the byelaws by the book.

 

[swj99]

(2) Removal of persons
(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws.....................

Is there a definition of reasonable belief in the bylaws, or any of the legislation they're based on ?

 

[Chrisgr31]

It would seem fairly obvious that they are not entitled to be in the seat if someone else is holding the reservation for it. However at the same time I would imagine staff could be on difficult ground if they actually forcibly vacate some from a seat as that could be assault I assume.

As someone osted in the thread though an issue with the Virgin trains is that fairly frequently a window seat does not actually mean you are by the window because there isnt one.

My preferred seat is always by the window, however on Virgin trains I always look carefully at a seating plan when booking and often go for an aisle seat as they tend to be more comfortable. But I can guess those that book a window seat for the view then find there isnt one get narked

 

[Welshman]

However at the same time I would imagine staff could be on difficult ground if they actually forcibly vacate some from a seat as that could be assault I assume.

That, to me, seems to be the heart of the problem.

Fortunately, I have only twice been in the situation of finding my reserved seat occupied, with the occupant refusing to move, and, all other seats being taken, having to resort to the conductor to intervene.

In the first case, she merely shrugged her shoulders and walked away. In the second, he upgraded me to first-class!

I couldn't really blame the first for her attitude, but the second got my vote!

 

[Antman]

With CCTV and camera phones everywhere nowadays the guard could well end up on an assault charge and lose his job, I would suggest that any use of force be left to the police although I appreciate that usually means delaying the train.

I suppose what staff are legally empowered to do, and what it is wise to attempt in the prevailing circumstances, can elicit very different answers.

I've only witnessed one physical ejection from a train, and he was a teen boy - a fair bit smaller than the Guard....

In this particular case, the first step would surely be to talk to the offenders, point out their discourtesy and (if necessary) the by-law offence, and politely ask them to move. Whether it went any further would depend, practically, on how big/intoxicated they were, and their strength in numbers. Nobody should be expected to put their welfare at risk for the sake of a seat reservation dispute.
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I don't see how disability is relevant here. If seat reservations are available, anyone unable to stand can and should reserve, and not occupy the reserved seat of someone who may have done so because THEY are unable to stand.

 

[the sniper]

Is there a definition of reasonable belief in the bylaws, or any of the legislation they're based on ?

'Belief' is used in other bits of UK law. Very basically, it's a lower threshold than 'Suspicion' of an offence being committed.

However at the same time I would imagine staff could be on difficult ground if they actually forcibly vacate some from a seat as that could be assault I assume.

If the force used was 'reasonable', you wouldn't be done for assault. The problem is knowing what is reasonable. Most TOC staff will never have had any training in this area and the TOCs aren't interested in providing it. Still, using force in the case of seat reservation squabbles would very much be an action of last resort dependent upon the circumstances, even for BTP.

 

[jon0844]

The byelaws empower railway staff to do a lot of things. TOC policies serve to disempower railway staff to the point where enforcing any kind of laws or principles is virtually impossible and trying to do so only risks a person loosing their job.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. The scroats out there get a hell of a shock when they think they know the game but come across a Guard, or more usually an assisting Driver, that doesn't give a damn about a TOCs PR policies and enforces the byelaws by the book.

I wish more was done about people putting feet on seats too, but we all know that when TOCs have clamped down on it they're instantly accused of being over the top, too heavy handed, unfair etc.

Only yesterday coming back from Windsor, I had to push through someone with his feet up on the seat. He was a tourist, and apologised and said I could sit there as he put his feet down. But I sat on the middle seat and said 'No thanks, you had your feet on there and got it dirty' which shut him up for the rest of the journey. Mind you, he put his feet back up immediately after.

And on the trip into London, two people who had been smoking behind the kiosk at Hatfield got on and also put their feet up - and one promptly peeled the 'feet off seats' sticker and got comfy.

Management need to wake up and realise one day that you have to enforce the rules. You'll delay trains and cause hardship, sure, but only for so long until the message sinks in that it's not acceptable. But you do also need to shift this new belief from the general public that if a service was delayed, it's down to the person who is causing the problem or breaking the law, NOT a jobsworth that should surely find something better to do (like turn a blind eye to anything and everything).

 

[bunnahabhain]

I wish more was done about people putting feet on seats too, but we all know that when TOCs have clamped down on it they're instantly accused of being over the top, too heavy handed, unfair etc.

Only yesterday coming back from Windsor, I had to push through someone with his feet up on the seat. He was a tourist, and apologised and said I could sit there as he put his feet down. But I sat on the middle seat and said 'No thanks, you had your feet on there and got it dirty' which shut him up for the rest of the journey. Mind you, he put his feet back up immediately after.

And on the trip into London, two people who had been smoking behind the kiosk at Hatfield got on and also put their feet up - and one promptly peeled the 'feet off seats' sticker and got comfy.

Management need to wake up and realise one day that you have to enforce the rules. You'll delay trains and cause hardship, sure, but only for so long until the message sinks in that it's not acceptable. But you do also need to shift this new belief from the general public that if a service was delayed, it's down to the person who is causing the problem or breaking the law, NOT a jobsworth that should surely find something better to do (like turn a blind eye to anything and everything).

Was a Guard present on those trains you've mentioned?

 

[tony6499]

The problem is the TM will get in the neck for any delays this may cause and will have been briefed by his managers so.

He/She may well wish to help someone who has booked a seat and can't sit in it but knowing he won't receive any back up will probably think it is not worth the bother.

What it says to passengers is don't bother reserving, just sit where you like and refuse to move is asks. Pretty poor state of affairs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps someone should write to DfT and advise them that they've wasted their time with one of the Byelaws, because TOCs don't think it is workable in practice...

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps someone should write to DfT and advise them that they've wasted their time with one of the Byelaws, because TOCs don't think it is workable in practice...

You'll have to be more specific than that...

 

[reb0118]

I wish more was done about people putting feet on seats too, but we all know that when TOCs have clamped down on it they're instantly accused of being over the top, too heavy handed, unfair etc.

Feet on seats is never acceptable on my train but especially in the winter time when there is lots of salt on the platforms. This salt is easily transferred to the seats and as ours are dark blue this is very obvious.

I have on occasion put people off my train for feat on seats after suitable warnings and would also do so as a last resort for unauthorised occupation of reserved seats.

 

[Gemz91]

I suppose what staff are legally empowered to do, and what it is wise to attempt in the prevailing circumstances, can elicit very different answers.

I've only witnessed one physical ejection from a train, and he was a teen boy - a fair bit smaller than the Guard....

In this particular case, the first step would surely be to talk to the offenders, point out their discourtesy and (if necessary) the by-law offence, and politely ask them to move. Whether it went any further would depend, practically, on how big/intoxicated they were, and their strength in numbers. Nobody should be expected to put their welfare at risk for the sake of a seat reservation dispute.
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I don't see how disability is relevant here. If seat reservations are available, anyone unable to stand can and should reserve, and not occupy the reserved seat of someone who may have done so because THEY are unable to stand.

What a silly argument re people who need seats should reserve them. What happens if the person doesn't know what time train they will be catching?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Perhaps someone should write to DfT and advise them that they've wasted their time with one of the Byelaws, because TOCs don't think it is workable in practice...

You'll have to be more specific than that...

You'll also have to explain what you think that the DfT (or indeed any other lawmaker) should be doing in respect of people or bodies attempting to provide the resources to bring about Prosecutions, please.

I cannot see any connection between the passing of delegated legislation to enable a particular activity to be regulated, and the willingness of any Companies to provide the resources to enforce that regulation - surely the point is to ensure that the legislation is in place, so that if there is an incident of significance which reaches legal argument, then the outcome is likely to favour the people's wishes?

What 'waste of time' would achieving that be, then?

Lets have the regulation in place so that it's there to protect those at risk when it's needed, eh?

 

[Robson689]

What a silly argument re people who need seats should reserve them. What happens if the person doesn't know what time train they will be catching?

Not your problem.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What a silly argument re people who need seats should reserve them. What happens if the person doesn't know what time train they will be catching?

Not my problem. If you're not capable of standing then you need to take steps to sort yourself out.

With CCTV and camera phones everywhere nowadays the guard could well end up on an assault charge and lose his job, I would suggest that any use of force be left to the police although I appreciate that usually means delaying the train.

So long as the guard used reasonable force there would be no "assault charge".

The reason why train staff are advised to avoid confrontation is not because of "assault charges". It's because seeking confrontation makes it more likely that they'll get smacked by a scrote.

The last time I was unable to use my reserved seat I upgraded to Weekend First, and after complaining to Virgin got my ticket and the First upgrade refunded.

 

[Antman]

Feet on seats is never acceptable on my train but especially in the winter time when there is lots of salt on the platforms. This salt is easily transferred to the seats and as ours are dark blue this is very obvious.

I have on occasion put people off my train for feat on seats after suitable warnings and would also do so as a last resort for unauthorised occupation of reserved seats.

I wish more was done about the feet on seats issue which has got worse largely because very little has been done about it and it just gets regarded almost as the norm. Isn't that more a matter for BTP rather than rail staff?

 

[Antman]

Not my problem. If you're not capable of standing then you need to take steps to sort yourself out.



So long as the guard used reasonable force there would be no "assault charge".

The reason why train staff are advised to avoid confrontation is not because of "assault charges". It's because seeking confrontation makes it more likely that they'll get smacked by a scrote.

The last time I was unable to use my reserved seat I upgraded to Weekend First, and after complaining to Virgin got my ticket and the First upgrade refunded.

And the obvious question is............how do you define reasonable force? And yes the guard would be likely to get hit with the scrote probably claiming self defence.