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London Bridge Thameslink Diversions and Southern Services

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Minstral25

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In September 14 Southern have a few changes to services already announced on their website but in January 2015 there will need to be a major change in the timetable to London Bridge as all Thameslink trains are moved away via Elephant and Castle.

Very little information has yet come out about the planned changes now less than 6 months away. Class 377/5 mentioned that minds were focussed on delivering this timetable at the moment.

Does anyone have any clues on what changes may be about to happen?
 
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All that GTR have said is that whilst the Thameslink services are being diverted via E&C, there will continue to be 4 trains an hour from Bedford to Gatwick / Three Bridges (2 of which go via Redhill), and a half hourly semi fast service from London Bridge to Brighton.
Everything else is still being decided, because now Govia have both companies, they are looking at avoiding duplication etc, so the revised timetable is being rewritten!
 

JonathanH

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All that GTR have said is that whilst the Thameslink services are being diverted via E&C, there will continue to be 4 trains an hour from Bedford to Gatwick / Three Bridges (2 of which go via Redhill), and a half hourly semi fast service from London Bridge to Brighton.
Everything else is still being decided, because now Govia have both companies, they are looking at avoiding duplication etc, so the revised timetable is being rewritten!

Isn't that from December 2015? Until then, one of the 4tph from Bedford will go no further than Elephant & Castle according to this post.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1838965&postcount=453

Given the Thameslink service mainly goes via Tulse Hill in the peak anyway, might we actually expect very few peak changes this December?
 

Bald Rick

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Everything else is still being decided, because now Govia have both companies, they are looking at avoiding duplication etc, so the revised timetable is being rewritten!

Apart from one minor point, it was all decided months ago, and nothing is being rewritten. It will be published in normal timescales.

Major changes in December 2015, but that was part of the franchise bid.
 

Minstral25

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Published in normal timescales is not useful for passengers when we know there are major changes to our services (trains that called at London Bridge and Blackfriars will no longer do so and losing one or the other may cause major problems for commuters. Surely these changes should be out and about by now if they are fixed.

Annual Season ticket decisions are made well in advance and knowing your trains to work may now be London Bridge only or Blackfriars only causes concern.
 

telstarbox

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As there are several stages of changes including the August work, it's best to release the information 'one step at a time' to avoid overloading passengers with information.

It's possible to request a 'changeover' part-way through a season ticket if necessary.
 

swt_passenger

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Also, from stations on the MML from north of Kentish Town are inter-available to London Bridge.

We had a thread on this last week.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102980

But the OP is asking about the effect on Southern services into London Bridge...

Seems to me that Southern will still have access to the 6 bays they've had since the work started, so the question is really what will be the impact of the Thameslink all day changes - but doesn't Thameslink mostly avoid London Bridge in the peak periods anyway?

Surely the main impact is that the all day off-peak Thameslink service is also changed, (including 2 tph into London Bridge terminating platforms) and that will have an overall effect on the whole Southern network in the off-peak.
 

Minstral25

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But the OP is asking about the effect on Southern services into London Bridge...

Seems to me that Southern will still have access to the 6 bays they've had since the work started, so the question is really what will be the impact of the Thameslink all day changes - but doesn't Thameslink mostly avoid London Bridge in the peak periods anyway?

Surely the main impact is that the all day off-peak Thameslink service is also changed, (including 2 tph into London Bridge terminating platforms) and that will have an overall effect on the whole Southern network in the off-peak.

Thanks

A lot of early morning trains on the BML to London Bridge are run by FCC Thameslink trains which will become GTR Thameslink in September so that Southern can send up longer trains a bit later in the rush hour. The London Bridge link of these will disappear in the January 2015 timetable as they will all go up the very slow way to Blackfriars (almost 20 mins slower as far as I can tell from existing trains)

This will have two effects, firstly no service to London Bridge where most passengers want to go [a good proportion then walk into the city from London Bridge station] and extended journey times mean commuters need to be on earlier trains to be at work on time - thus increasing the pressure on the now fewer services.

How they are going to cope with this is something that should be available now as passengers need to plan ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Additionally the 6 platforms will have restricted approach access compared to current so they will not be able to run as many trains through.

They are diverting or stopping short many trains from this September because of that.
 

Bald Rick

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Let's get some facts in here.

The FCC diversion via Tulse Hill adds 15 minutes at most. In peak times it is less, nearer 8 minutes, (exactly as it is today) and that includes plenty of pathing time to fit around other services on an intensely used part of the network. Indeed there are regular examples of late running trains getting from E Croydon to Blackfriars via Tulse Hill more quickly than the quickest schedule via London Bridge. I have missed a good few trains home as a result.

Between 0700 and 0900, ie when the majority of commuters arrive and the trains are busy, there is only one FCC train arriving London Bridge from the south. In the same time, there are 22 Southern arrivals from East Croydon, 8 of which come from Three Bridges or further south. So there is only 1 (8 car) train load of passengers that need to be concerned with the diversion, and perhaps less than half of them will actually get off at London Bridge. For passengers who want the City, there is a handy station called, err, City Thameslink, which is a 10 minute walk from Bank (ie the same as London Bridge). For passengers who want London Bridge, there are plenty of other services to choose from. Alternatively it is a pleasant 15 min stroll from Blackfriars to London Bridge - something I do twice every day.

The alterations from 1 Sept do not result in 'many' services being diverted or terminated short, although that does depend on the definition of many. In the high peak hour today, there are 26 Southern arrivals. From 1/9 it is 23. From 5/1/15 it is 24. Some of the remaining trains will be longer to help compensate.


The principle of publishing the trains in the normal timetable process is simple. It is the standard process, and is well established. In theory there is nothing to stop a train operator completely recasting a timetable - amending every single train significantly - and publishing in normal timescales. Indeed this has happened before, BR were masters at it. To advance the timetable publication would require advancing the timetable process for the whole country, as it is all interlinked. Nevertheless, the service principles have been well trailed for some time, if not the detailed timings (which have only been firm for the last few weeks, indeed Southern are still finalising some details).
 
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swt_passenger

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Additionally the 6 platforms will have restricted approach access compared to current so they will not be able to run as many trains through.

Permanently restricted as it turns out, so presumably that three track section on the approach to the bays (following the Christmas alterations) is designed to cope with the final number of services? (i.e. 24 as just described?)
 

Busaholic

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Thanks

A lot of early morning trains on the BML to London Bridge are run by FCC Thameslink trains which will become GTR Thameslink in September so that Southern can send up longer trains a bit later in the rush hour. The London Bridge link of these will disappear in the January 2015 timetable as they will all go up the very slow way to Blackfriars (almost 20 mins slower as far as I can tell from existing trains)

This will have two effects, firstly no service to London Bridge where most passengers want to go [a good proportion then walk into the city from London Bridge station] and extended journey times mean commuters need to be on earlier trains to be at work on time - thus increasing the pressure on the now fewer services.

How they are going to cope with this is something that should be available now as passengers need to plan ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Additionally the 6 platforms will have restricted approach access compared to current so they will not be able to run as many trains through.

They are diverting or stopping short many trains from this September because of that.

Another good reason to introduce a B lackfriars stop on the Waterloo and City Line
 

21C101

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It's quicker to walk...

It is only about a 10 minute walk from Blackfriars to Waterloo now the south bank entrance is open

NSE looked at this in the 80s but the trains in the peaks are rammed when they leave Waterloo/Bank with passengers to/from the city so it wasn't feasible as no one could get on.
 

hassaanhc

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Yesterday I travelled on this diversion, between St Pancras International and East Croydon via Loughborough Junction, Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction. I think it has to be the most tedious and slow journey EVER! Timetabled 29 minutes (including 5 min pathing allowance) between Elephant & Castle and East Croydon, it took me 27 minutes and average speed for the 9mi38ch works out as 21mph! Unbearable with a 319 in this heat :(
 

Minstral25

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Bald Rick - appreciate your comments but that is not accurate at least for a couple of hundred of my fellow commuters.

Firstly you are comparing times to Blackfriars but existing passengers going to London Bridge can as you say go to City Thameslink but it adds 5-10 minutes to their walk (as most go beyond bank to Bishopsgate which is 5 minutes further). So on a train that takes 15 minutes longer (although the services I looked at to compare actually were 19 minutes) means their entire extra journey takes 20-25 minutes longer. So to get at their desk earlier they need to leave half hour earlier but when you are on a train at 6:33 already there isn't a train half hour earlier.

At 6:56 there is a train from Redhill that takes 27 minutes to London Bridge and continues to Blackfriars. Roughly 200 people catch that train to London Bridge but there is a strong rumour this train is to be diverted away from Redhill so it can keep time north of the core.

The alternatives are to use the 7:11 either direct to Blackfriars or more likely change at East Croydon which means you arrive in London Bridge 22 minutes later or catch the 4 coach train from Tonbridge via Redhill at 6:43 13 minutes earlier which is already fully overloaded from Redhill.

Perhaps changes elsewhere are not as big so its not a big problem as it seems to the Redhill customer at the moment unless there is more news we haven't heard.

Also note the 8:02 Redhill to London Bridge was diverted to Victoria in 2012 and now the 8:30 is also being diverted to Victoria in September 2014 so that change is huge for us as well. This means that their is no direct train from Redhill to London Bridge arriving between 8:19 and 9:16 a gap of nearly an hour at peak times when we used to have 2. This also effects Coulsdon South, Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley. A lot of passengers severely disadvantaged especially as it will mean a lot of passengers changing at East Croydon onto already crush loaded trains.

Sorry for bit of a rant but my fellow commuters have seen regular cuts to our train services in the last couple of years despite having the highest Season and other Ticket prices in the equivalent area. We have seen lots of improvements on services (longer and new trains) to these equivalent stations but little for us. We are a bit fed up to say the least!
 

DJL

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It is only about a 10 minute walk from Blackfriars to Waterloo now the south bank entrance is open

NSE looked at this in the 80s but the trains in the peaks are rammed when they leave Waterloo/Bank with passengers to/from the city so it wasn't feasible as no one could get on.

It's 16 mins from the south end of a train at blackfriars to the front door of my office, which is right next door to Waterloo mainline station. I walk it every day.

Perhaps more important to the thread though is the walking time from Blackfriars North into bank (I'll take the corner between Cheapside and Queen Victoria Street as a reference point).
It's a while since I walked this but I don't remember it being very far - less than 10 minutes. Not a dissimilar time as from London Bridge I wouldn't have thought.

Having to alight at Blackfriars instead of London Bridge seems to be somewhat less of an inconvenience to Charing Cross over London Bridge. Even if the latter does have a free tube connection (to get you back to the wrong side of the river)
 

21C101

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It's 16 mins from the south end of a train at blackfriars to the front door of my office, which is right next door to Waterloo mainline station. I walk it every day.

Perhaps more important to the thread though is the walking time from Blackfriars North into bank (I'll take the corner between Cheapside and Queen Victoria Street as a reference point).
It's a while since I walked this but I don't remember it being very far - less than 10 minutes. Not a dissimilar time as from London Bridge I wouldn't have thought.

Having to alight at Blackfriars instead of London Bridge seems to be somewhat less of an inconvenience to Charing Cross over London Bridge. Even if the latter does have a free tube connection (to get you back to the wrong side of the river)

Maybe I walk a bit faster than you, but I can do it in about 10 minutes without breaking sweat by taking the narrow street by the churchyard (Columbo Street?) onto Roupell Street then up Roupell Street to the Union Jack Club. If you walk down to Southwark station then along the cut it would take about 16 mins.

Agree about Blackfriars and Bank. Would take as long getting the train if they built a W&C station.

If someone decided to combine the W&C with the GN electrics at Moorgate then it would make sense to have a station at Blackfriars. That would be very expensive though as main line bores would be needed.

It might not be such a bad idea for a cross London route though, you could run it onto the Windsor Lines to the south and to East Finchley/Muswell Hill as well as the Hertford Loop.

Crossrail 3?
 

DJL

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Probably cheaper, and certainly less disruptive, to just bore a new tunnel that happens to follow the same route - only deeper (or alongside).

As for Blackfriars to Waterloo - I think we are talking about different parts of waterloo station. I was going by the main entrance.
Generally I go along the river then cut though Bernie Spain Gardens onto Upper Ground, under the bridge then along Sutton Walk. It is a little circulatory but only has one set of lights to negotiate vs 3 by the other good route along Stamford Street (which is still minimum 12 mins very brisk walk and if you are lucky with the lights).

For the other entrance though, nearer to W&C so makes some sense in the context of this thread your route does indeed look quicker.
 

21C101

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Probably cheaper, and certainly less disruptive, to just bore a new tunnel that happens to follow the same route - only deeper (or alongside).

As for Blackfriars to Waterloo - I think we are talking about different parts of waterloo station. I was going by the main entrance.
Generally I go along the river then cut though Bernie Spain Gardens onto Upper Ground, under the bridge then along Sutton Walk. It is a little circulatory but only has one set of lights to negotiate vs 3 by the other good route along Stamford Street (which is still minimum 12 mins very brisk walk and if you are lucky with the lights).

For the other entrance though, nearer to W&C so makes some sense in the context of this thread your route does indeed look quicker.

Indeed I meant the entrance by the Jubilee line tube entrance in Waterloo Road
 

W230

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Yesterday I travelled on this diversion, between St Pancras International and East Croydon via Loughborough Junction, Crystal Palace and Norwood Junction.
Some will go via Loughborough Junction, Streatham and Selhurst. Don't expect this to be any quicker though! :lol:
 

RichardN

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I'm normally on the 8:25 at East Croydon and can walk to Blackfriars from London Bridge and catch the train prior to the 8:39 to Bedford (from East Croydon) i.e. it normally pays for me to stay on the train to London Bridge and walk. It is also a pleasant walk past the Cathedral and Golden Hinde, Globe Theatre, Tate Modern and alongside the Thames. (Of course if the 8:25 gets to EC before the 8:23 Thameslink I switch there. Real time trains comes in handy)

I'm surprised that the service will get better after December given the lack of approach tracks. I guess it because the layout will be better, possibly with higher approach speeds across the throat.
 
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hassaanhc

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Some will go via Loughborough Junction, Streatham and Selhurst. Don't expect this to be any quicker though! :lol:

So many speed restrictions around there due to bends and junctions! :( Thank God I don't use those services, would drive me insane :(
 

JonathanH

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Provisional information now available on Open Train Times for train times from January. Not sure how much can be read into it:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Looks like the 0740 from Reigate is diverted to Victoria which will displease a lot of customers

Some comedian has also decided to break evening connections at Redhill between the xx02 services from Victoria which currently go to Brighton and the FGW North Downs services. The current Horsham services are diverted to start at London Bridge meaning that the xx02 stops at Purley and Coulsdon South and terminates at Horsham

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Lots to complain about I expect.
 
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Minstral25

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Provisional information now available on Open Train Times for train times from January. Not sure how much can be read into it:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Looks like the 0740 from Reigate is diverted to Victoria which will displease a lot of customers

Some comedian has also decided to break evening connections at Redhill between the xx02 services from Victoria which currently go to Brighton and the FGW North Downs services. The current Horsham services are diverted to start at London Bridge meaning that the xx02 stops at Purley and Coulsdon South and terminates at Horsham

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Lots to complain about I expect.

Definately a lot. Includeing the 6:56 to London Bridge and Blackfriars cut as well. That carries about 200/250 passengers every day from Redhill and no direct replacement.
 
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TimG

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I have opened a query with southern on this subject. I generally get the 0550 from Brighton and the 1627 from London bridge. I leave work tower hill at four and HAVE to be at Brighton station before 1750 in order to pick up my daughter. Hence my slightly psychopathic rage in my maiden thread. I fully appreciate that timetable changes are necessary. It's a miracle that they can keep things going given the changes. For some people a regular delay of 20 minutes on their return journey may mean that they have to move jobs, renegotiate working patterns etc. This is not a quick and easy thing to do so in my opinion all changes should be published as soon as they are known.
 

Deepgreen

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Provisional information now available on Open Train Times for train times from January. Not sure how much can be read into it:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Looks like the 0740 from Reigate is diverted to Victoria which will displease a lot of customers

Some comedian has also decided to break evening connections at Redhill between the xx02 services from Victoria which currently go to Brighton and the FGW North Downs services. The current Horsham services are diverted to start at London Bridge meaning that the xx02 stops at Purley and Coulsdon South and terminates at Horsham

http://www.opentraintimes.com/locat...on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

Lots to complain about I expect.



There is no such thing as a connection on today's fragmented railway - least of all at Redhill, where the blinkered Southern staff take a delight in letting trains go as passengers reach for the door buttons from a FGW train just arrived on the other side of the island platform!
 

TimG

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There is no such thing as a connection on today's fragmented railway - least of all at Redhill, where the blinkered Southern staff take a delight in letting trains go as passengers reach for the door buttons from a FGW train just arrived on the other side of the island platform!

If they hold a train it had cataclysmic knock on effects... Or so I'm told!
 

Deepgreen

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Absolutely - 15 seconds longer at Redhill means 15 seconds less at the booked 4.5 minute pathing stand outside East Croydon!
 

TimG

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At 6:56 there is a train from Redhill that takes 27 minutes to London Bridge and continues to Blackfriars. Roughly 200 people catch that train to London Bridge but there is a strong rumour this train is to be diverted away from Redhill so it can keep time north of the core.

I get this train often... a large proportion of passengers get on at redhill.. taking the last of the seats.
 
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