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New North Wales to Manchester train services

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cymro inside

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swings and roundabouts the 0945 Llandudno to Manchester will become a 2car 175 instead of 3 car also 1250 Manchester to llandudno and 1508 Llandudno to Manchester as far as chester where another 2 car will attach to Manchester 1750 Manchester departure will be 2x2 175 so extra seats there too, 2 sets to llan jct where train will divide 2 for Holyhead and two for Llandudno.
 
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Gareth Marston

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The DfT announcement says the extra seats are "across the morning and evening peak", so I don't think you can count the off-peak capacity.



The suspicion is that the Llandudno 175 will be cascaded to the Marches, and at the bottom of the cascade an extra 158 will pop out for the Cambrian.
So no change to Chester-Manchester frequency.

The newspaper is misleading there's no plan for extra trains between Chester and Manchester just overall extra carriages on 5 services each way some of which will extend to Holyhead.
 

northwichcat

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The newspaper is misleading there's no plan for extra trains between Chester and Manchester just overall extra carriages on 5 services each way some of which will extend to Holyhead.

Well there are actually proposals for both additional Chester-Warrington-Manchester and Chester-Altrincham-Manchester services but they are just proposals with no set implementation date, so someone aware of that might read the article and think the extra services will start in December.
 

turboslug

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the extra chester to Manchester services wont be run by atw, plans ive seen propose these extras extending across the pennines via Manchester Victoria & operated by TPE, this wont happen before the ordsall curve is done looking more than likely with 2018 timetable recast
 

northwichcat

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the extra chester to Manchester services wont be run by atw, plans ive seen propose these extras extending across the pennines via Manchester Victoria & operated by TPE, this wont happen before the ordsall curve is done looking more than likely with 2018 timetable recast

The TPE recast is scheduled in for December 2016, which should be when the Ordsall Chord opens. December 2018 is the date Manchester-York should be fully electric.

Chester is set to be an option for the next TPE franchisee to serve as either an extension of the existing Hull-Manchester service or as part of a brand new Chester-Sheffield service (if Manchester-Sheffield goes to 3tph.) If the next TPE franchisee doesn't take up that option then it'll likely be a Calder Vale service will be extended to Chester. I think the latter will be WAG's preferred option as it means the North Wales service can be extended to the Airport, which is something they want. If the extra service is TPE then it could mean the North Wales services get diverted to Victoria. (Hull is expected to remain as a Piccadilly service with only services to York and beyond serving Victoria.)
 

Philip

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Correct, remains hourly, the comment about Chester/Manchester refers to the 0740 becoming loco Haul, I have been told,it is ATWs intention to make all Manchester/South Wales 175 three car, well thats what ATW staff told SARPA last last Saturday.

Are there enough three car sets to cover all the Manchester - South Wales diagrams as well as the couple of Holyhead - Cardiff diagrams currently booked as three car?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Are there enough three car sets to cover all the Manchester - South Wales diagrams as well as the couple of Holyhead - Cardiff diagrams currently booked as three car?

I think you need 13 sets for Manchester-South Wales (on current destinations).
There are 16x3-car 175s and 11x2-car.
Currently there is a majority of 3-car on Manchester-Llandudno and Manchester-South Wales, but gradually 158s and 2-car 175s are creeping on to the Llandudno service.
There are also some 2x2-car workings, split en route.
Holyhead-Cardiff was initially 2-car but also seems to get 3-car sometimes.
I don't think availability has been very good in recent months, with accidents and such, so in many ways it's pot luck what turns up these days.
 

merlodlliw

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Perhaps extra service capacity would be better

The copy was rushed out to the media in North Wales following Local AMs question about losing a direct Llandudno/Manchester early morning service used by some of his constituents for travel to work in Warrington & Manchester.
Reporters on two local dailies questioned ATW about losing the service which,I understand put ATW media dept into a flap when they realised the axing had been spotted before the Dec 2014 consultative timetable due out in late August/September would be released to stakeholders, by then it would be too late to reverse the axing of the service,or get the loco hauled to start at Llandudno.
I agree extra service capacity on the loco hauled,not extra services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From todays Daily Post. Friday 18th July

Written by Steve Bagnall, staff reporter

A morning commuter train from Llandudno to Manchester could be axed to ease congestion on a South Wales service.

Lib Dem AM Aled Roberts claims proposed timetables by Arriva Trains Wales (ATW) show the 6.34am direct service is set to disappear in December.

He said the carriages used will be sent to bolster a South Wales service to Manchester at the expense of the north.

It would also mean anyone trying to commute to Manchester would have to set off about an hour earlier in the morning.

Although the train operator insists there are plans for a direct service to get to Manchester from the North Wales coast by 9am, Mr Roberts said he had seen no details of any such connection.

ATW is also considering cancelling the 7.49am from Wrexham to Birmingham when a new timetable is issued in May 2015, he said.

The row follows the announcement of a £1.2m deal between the Department for Transport and Arriva Trains Wales for new rail services between North Wales and Manchester Piccadilly.

Under the plans announced by Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin this week, the train operator will run an additional locomotive and four carriages on the route – meaning “at least 2,450 extra seats across the morning and evening peaks every week”.

Mr Roberts launched a scathing attack on the plans.

He said: “Despite calls from many politicians in North Wales for more cross border services, Arriva Trains Wales are planning to cut our services, making it even harder for people to find work outside North Wales.

“Such a dramatic change calls into question how serious Arriva Trains Wales are about generating commuter traffic.”

Mr Roberts added: “These proposals by ATW beg the question: who is looking after the interests of North Wales’s rail commuters?

“The Llandudno train to Manchester may be used to form a new service from South Wales to Manchester and the Wrexham train will probably be used on a new Aberystwyth service.

“If current plans within Arriva Trains Wales are maintained there will be no direct train service from either Wrexham or Llandudno that will get you to Manchester before 9am once the proposed new timetables come into force in December.”

An ATW spokesman said: “The new December timetable is still under development and has yet to be agreed by Network Rail and our key stakeholders.

"We will listen to the feedback from our stakeholders once we have issued a proposed timetable as part of the consultation process.

“However, we can confirm that we are planning to run a direct service from the North Wales coast to arrive in Manchester before 9am and we are planning to add extra capacity to our services in this area too.”

The reporter tells me, he asked for details about the proposed direct train from Llandudno to arrive in Manchester before 0900. however ATW Media dept
told him this would appear in the Dec 2014 consultative timetable due late August/Sept, but refused to give the reporter any details.
Im now guessing the loco Hauled may start at Llandudno running all stations to Manchester.
 
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Philip

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Just a thought, would it not be better to run the loco-hauled stock on a couple of Manchester to South Wales diagrams, then use cascaded 175s to bolster the Llandudo services?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It is very easy to get from North Wales stations to Manchester before 0900.
Get the Virgin 0551 from Holyhead (Llandudno Jn 0636, Chester 0735 with portion from Wrexham at 0700) and change at Crewe into the VT 0811 Pendolino to Manchester arr 0849.
Less crowded than the 0634 ATW Llandudno-Manchester, time for a bacon roll at Crewe, VT-only SVR fare from LLJ is £10 cheaper than ATW...
 

merlodlliw

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It is very easy to get from North Wales stations to Manchester before 0900.
Get the Virgin 0551 from Holyhead (Llandudno Jn 0636, Chester 0735 with portion from Wrexham at 0700) and change at Crewe into the VT 0811 Pendolino to Manchester arr 0849.
Less crowded than the 0634 ATW Llandudno-Manchester, time for a bacon roll at Crewe, VT-only SVR fare from LLJ is £10 cheaper than ATW...

Very around the houses, the 0712 ex Chester direct train Chester to Manchester,departs 4 minutes, before the VT from Wrexham arrives on the same platform 4. Or they wait half an hour for the new 0740.

If ATW come up with your route, they will be kicked.The VT misses out Abergele & Shotton stations,
and more importantly any passengers from Deganwy Llandudno have to motor to the junction.
 
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Gareth Marston

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and more importantly any passengers from Deganwy Llandudno have to motor to the junction.

With the break point for commuting widely recognised at around the hour and a quarter mark I'm really struggling with this line that there are going to be many disadvantaged commuters from west of Chester to Manchester.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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With the break point for commuting widely recognised at around the hour and a quarter mark I'm really struggling with this line that there are going to be many disadvantaged commuters from west of Chester to Manchester.

It's a complex mix of work commuters, students, business travel, shopping and tourists. Maybe the odd Irish traveller.
If you want to get anywhere you will be on these early trains, to all parts.
Trains going the other way will be practically empty till mid-morning, which doesn't help.
They may not be going every day but Colwyn Bay-Manchester, say, for a business meeting, would be entirely typical.
 

Gareth Marston

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It's a complex mix of work commuters, students, business travel, shopping and tourists. Maybe the odd Irish traveller.
If you want to get anywhere you will be on these early trains, to all parts.
Trains going the other way will be practically empty till mid-morning, which doesn't help.
They may not be going every day but Colwyn Bay-Manchester, say, for a business meeting, would be entirely typical.

For many years now the 0514 from Aberystwyth to BHM INTL sits in Platform 5 at Shrewsbury after arrival officially from 0711 to 0733 but most mornings from around 0702. The regular commuters and others in the know happily cross over to platform 6 and catch the 0714 London Midland to New St. Whilst perhaps they'd like their through train to continue it shows regulars are not adverse to changing in practice.
 

merlodlliw

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For many years now the 0514 from Aberystwyth to BHM INTL sits in Platform 5 at Shrewsbury after arrival officially from 0711 to 0733 but most mornings from around 0702. The regular commuters and others in the know happily cross over to platform 6 and catch the 0714 London Midland to New St. Whilst perhaps they'd like their through train to continue it shows regulars are not adverse to changing in practice.

There has always been a high number of Commute to work and students using the ex Llandudno at 0634, many work in Warrington and Manchester.
This really dates back to the Manchester Club train.
When a train as run through to a major City,Manchester in this instance plus the Welsh Government North Wales Rail task force wanting more trains between,North Wales/Liverpool/Manchester and Birmingham, it is hard to justify cancelling a peak early morning travel to work train.
I have no problem with the new Loco Hauled service, but using this service in the evening has a local between The Junction and Llandudno would be better placed running the 0634 Llandudno to Manchester, many services run empty at dawn to be in the correct position on the ATW network, so why not this train stabled at Crewe. VT run empty Voyager stock Crewe to Holyhead.
We know the three car 175 will be transferred to other areas, and a two car 175 would be useless from Chester at 0740.
 
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Gareth Marston

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There has always been a high number of Commute to work and students using the ex Llandudno at 0634, many work in Warrington and Manchester.
This really dates back to the Manchester Club train.
When a train as run through to a major City,Manchester in this instance plus the Welsh Government North Wales Rail task force wanting more trains between,North Wales/Liverpool/Manchester and Birmingham, it is hard to justify cancelling a peak early morning travel to work train.
I have no problem with the new Loco Hauled service, but using this service in the evening has a local between The Junction and Llandudno would be better placed running the 0634 Llandudno to Manchester, many services run empty at dawn to be in the correct position on the ATW network, so why not this train stabled at Crewe. VT run empty Voyager stock Crewe to Holyhead.
We know the three car 175 will be transferred to other areas, and a two car 175 would be useless from Chester at 0740.

Until such time as the coast and via Warrington are wired and you can run a 6 car emu into manchester from Llandudno for 0840 these sorts of compromises are always on the cards when you play single expensive extra non standard train instead of total route modernisation. Same applies with Gerald and Wrexham redouble.
 

Muzer

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Every time I see this thread title, I assume it's talking about Australian rail services north of New South Wales :p
 

merlodlliw

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Until such time as the coast and via Warrington are wired and you can run a 6 car emu into manchester from Llandudno for 0840 these sorts of compromises are always on the cards when you play single expensive extra non standard train instead of total route modernisation. Same applies with Gerald and Wrexham redouble.

I agree some must compromise, but does the compromise have to be cutting three services in North East Wales, two of which are busy morning travel to work trains,
It will make excellent press copy when the Wrexham redouble is formally launched in May 2015 the very same day the line loses two services.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I agree some must compromise, but does the compromise have to be cutting three services in North East Wales, two of which are busy morning travel to work trains. It will make excellent press copy when the Wrexham redouble is formally launched in May 2015... the very same day the line loses two services.

It indeed will be a most unfortunate coincidence, media-wise, but nothing on this matter of rail hoped-for improvement seems to be easy.
 

merlodlliw

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Ironic after yesterdays press coverage about the proposed loss of a Direct travel to work Manchester service from North Wales, I say direct as this is the key.

Denbighshire County council which has stations at Rhyl(which it owns) and Prestatyn ,yesterday its Cabinet requested extra services direct to Manchester/Liverpool from North Wales, this is stated in todays Daily Post,alas not on the web version.
 

Gareth Marston

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With that certain other DfT "geographical howlers" thread in mind, perhaps this ticket to New South Wales may well be one from the DfT "magical geographical mysteries of life" special marketing campaign...:D

When Network Rail responded to complaints that Cambrian trains at Birmingham New St were not being announced as having Pwllheli portions a few years ago the response to the query stated that the Cambrian Coast was between Shrewsbury and Chester!
 

merlodlliw

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When Network Rail responded to complaints that Cambrian trains at Birmingham New St were not being announced as having Pwllheli portions a few years ago the response to the query stated that the Cambrian Coast was between Shrewsbury and Chester!

Not surprising at all,the Cambrian coast often moves to other areas according to those in power, I have had sight of a letter this morning sent from another North Wales AM to the Minister, asking what the hell is going on, with ATW proposing axing two very busy early morning direct travel to work trains from North East Wales to Manchester and Birmingham.
 
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Philip

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Is there anything to stop Northern from doing the same in hiring LHCS to run on some peak time Blackpool/Preston to Manchester/Hazel Grove services? They did a similar thing with the 180s and for about a year in FNW days there was an evening Chester to Blackpool service that went via Northwich and Manchester, hauled by a class 31. The Irish Mancunian (Manchester-Holyhead boat train) was also LHCS for a period of time in FNW days.
 
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PHILIPE

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Is there anything to stop Northern from doing the same in hiring LHCS to run on some peak time Blackpool/Preston to Manchester/Hazel Grove services? They did a similar thing with the 180s and for about a year in FNW days there was an evening Chester to Blackpool service that went via Northwich and Manchester, hauled by a class 31. The Irish Mancunian (Manchester-Holyhead boat train) was also LHCS for a period of time in FNW days.

Northern haven't got a Welsh Assembly Government behind them unlike ATW who won't pay for anything themselves if somebody else will do so.
 

thealexweb

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Is there anything to stop Northern from doing the same in hiring LHCS to run on some peak time Blackpool/Preston to Manchester/Hazel Grove services? They did a similar thing with the 180s and for about a year in FNW days there was an evening Chester to Blackpool service that went via Northwich and Manchester, hauled by a class 31. The Irish Mancunian (Manchester-Holyhead boat train) was also LHCS for a period of time in FNW days.

No there is not. But it simply would not be in the shareholders' interest. The increase in revenue would not justify the cost of loco-hauled units. One of the greatest flaws in the franchise system, the passenger never comes first. Under some models the passenger occasionally comes first.
 
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