New North Wales to Manchester train services

[bigbadhenry]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-north-wales-manchester-train-7431144

New North Wales to Manchester train services launched in £1.2m deal

New rail services between North Wales and Manchester Piccadilly are due to be launched in December following a £1.2m deal between the Department for Transport and Arriva Trains Wales.

The new services will mean “at least 2,450 extra seats across the morning and evening peaks every week”.

Under the plans announced by Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin today, the train operator will run an additional locomotive and four carriages.

The new services, backed by the Welsh Government, are intended to help passengers and local businesses on the popular routes between Llandudno and Holyhead to Manchester and Birmingham.

The routes include Manchester Piccadilly to Holyhead; Holyhead to Manchester Piccadilly; and Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno. There will also be a Chester to Manchester Piccadilly service.

Transport Secretary Mr McLoughlin said: “This is good news for passengers travelling between England and Wales. I know how popular these services are, so it’s important to get extra carriages and seats on the network.

“It will mean better connections for thousands of passengers, and is further proof our long term economic plan is on track, making a real difference to hard-working people.”

Network Rail plans to spend £38bn over the next five years.

According to the Department for Transport: “The deal has been made possible through money paid to the department by Deutsche Bahn, following the company’s acquisition of Arriva Plc. Under the current rail industry framework train companies are required to pay a Change of Control Fee when changes to the operator are made.”

Ian Bullock, Managing Director of Arriva Trains Wales, said: “We would like to thank both the Department for Transport and the Welsh Government for supporting the provision of extra capacity on some of our busiest routes. Improved service performance levels and the increased popularity of sustainable transport has led to more than 75% growth in passenger numbers using our Manchester and Birmingham services since our Wales and Borders franchise began in late 2003.

“This extra capacity will help us better meet the demand along these key routes and hopefully encourage even more passengers to use the rail network.”

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't know if it is anything at my end, but I cannot access that link.

 

[theshillito]

New North Wales to Manchester train services launched in £1.2m deal

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nort...-train-7431144

Hi. Your link seems to be truncated for some reason. Here's the full link: http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-north-wales-manchester-train-7431144

From the article "Under the plans announced by Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin today, the train operator will run an additional locomotive and four carriages". Is this Gerald's new home? I was under the impression that Gerald was run as an open access service and rolling stock can't be shared between franchises and open access companies, unless ATW bought it off the open access company? Can anyone enlighten me as to what's going on? (I am assuming that the newspaper isn't confusing DMUs with loco+carriages here).

 

[anthony263]

The latest issue of Todays railways uk has a list of the diagrams for this loco hauled service

 

[eastwestdivide]

Possibly this?
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-north-wales-manchester-train-7431144

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can already hear grumblings...."Liverpool's connections to the North Wales Coast Line have once again been overlooked"

 

[theshillito]

I can already hear grumblings...."Liverpool's connections to the North Wales Coast Line have once again been overlooked"

Not necessarily. The Halton Curve has already been announced as getting re-worked, so once that work is done, Liverpool can have services to Wales. Until then, there's no point grumbling.

 

[Philip]

Will the loco hauled trains simply replace existing DMU services (ie. the 17:50 Piccadilly to Holyhead) or will they be run as extras?

 

[theshillito]

Will the loco hauled trains simply replace existing DMU services (ie. the 17:50 Piccadilly to Holyhead) or will they be run as extras?

"at least 2,450 extra seats across the morning and evening peaks every week" seems to suggest it's additional services. Also, since it's loco hauled, they won't want a start-stop pattern. It might be express from Manchester to perhaps Runcorn East, or even straight through to Chester.

 

[Emyr]

Judging by my most recent experiences of Rhyl, Liverpool is already adequately connected to the North Wales coast.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"at least 2,450 extra seats across the morning and evening peaks every week" seems to suggest it's additional services. Also, since it's loco hauled, they won't want a start-stop pattern. It might be express from Manchester to perhaps Runcorn East, or even straight through to Chester.

All current Manchester services are all shacks west of Newton-le-Willows.
Holyhead services usually miss out Shotton and Abergele, but then are usually all/most stations west of Llandudno Jn.
The loco train will just free up DMUs for use on the Cambrian line, and become the stoppers.
The franchise spec dictates the all-stations pattern.
There are a few variations at the odd times when Virgin is running trains on the coast line.

Edit:
The surprising thing about this announcement is that it was made by the DfT and was considered worthy of a press release - for 1 train replacing another!
I presume the funding for it has come from DfT coffers rather than the Welsh Government.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/green-light-for-extra-rail-services-between-england-and-wales

Edit 2:
Then there's this astonishing paragraph:

The deal has been made possible through money paid to the department by Deutsche Bahn, following the company’s acquisition of Arriva Plc. Under the current rail industry framework train companies are required to pay a change of control fee when changes to the operator are made

DB acquired Arriva in 2010!
But the strange fact is that Arriva seem to be at least part-funding the new service, as a "fine" for being taken over by DB...

 

[Welshman]

Is this not the LHCS discussed on another thread:-

ie 0716 Crewe-Chester
0740 Chester-Manchester, etc, etc?

and mentioned here
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1406b.htm

on 9th June?

Or am I getting confused, and is there going to be a second Loco-hauled N.Wales-Manchester service?

 

[theshillito]

Is this not the LHCS discussed on another thread:-

ie 0716 Crewe-Chester
0740 Chester-Manchester, etc, etc?

and mentioned here
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1406b.htm

on 9th June?

Or am I getting confused, and is there going to be a second Loco-hauled N.Wales-Manchester service?

Yes and no. They ran testing on the date mentioned using the existing Gerald stock (when Gerald doesn't normally run and there's fewer services along those routes anyway on a Sunday) prior to getting new stock/stock in storage (if they have any). The testing is for the upcoming service we're discussing though, so you're still kinda right.

 

[D6975]

The Gerald service to Cardiff is going to stop running at the timetable change in May 2015. (mentioned on the Gerald thread) Presumably the North Wales service will start with the new timetable.

 

[DarloRich]

So to be clear:

1) Gerald will stop running (That is Cardiff - Holyhead) at the May 2015 timetbale change

to be replaced by

2) North Wales -Manchester using loco and stock

is that correct? If so what will replace the Gerald?

 

[theshillito]

So to be clear:

1) Gerald will stop running (That is Cardiff - Holyhead) at the May 2015 timetbale change

to be replaced by

2) North Wales -Manchester using loco and stock

is that correct? If so what will replace the Gerald?

The article says North Wales - Manchester services start in December, and I'm unaware of any official outlet saying the Gerald service will end. Plus, Gerald is not strictly an ATW service. It's an open access service that is run by ATW on behalf of the WAG. The DfT doesn't allow open access owned stock to mix with franchise stock (see Chiltern and W&S I think who got told off for doing exactly that).

 

[gazthomas]

Funny

 

[higthomas]

I don't think this is using stock displaced from Gerald. I think they have found some LHCS from elsewhere, as previously pointed out there is likely to be some overlap between the two services.
I think that the reason that they are doing this is to release an extra class 158 for use on the Cambrian, although I think there is another thread somewhere giving more info about this change, I think ones centred on Gerald and the one on Cambrian changes.

 

[D6975]

ATW already have enough Mk3s for 2 rakes - just.

ps They have 6 TSOs and 3 Restaurant firsts, so they'll need 100% availability of the TSOs during the period when both trains run. (unless the second rake runs with just 2 TSOs.)

 

[IanXC]

The DfT doesn't allow open access owned stock to mix with franchise stock (see Chiltern and W&S I think who got told off for doing exactly that).

Wasn't the trouble with Chiltern and W&S when the latest trains picked up franchise required calls on the Chiltern route? There doesn't seem to be an issue with stock being hired to/from OAOs just look at 180s and HST power cars.

ATW already have enough Mk3s for 2 rakes - just.

[Wild speculation]
Anyone betting on the pretendolino stock finding its new home here?
[/Wild speculation]

 

[Gareth Marston]

The funding for Gerald runs out in may 15 with no announcement as to future
.
This service starts in Dec 14 with different stock replacing existing DMU diagrams. The displaced DMU's will shuffle fleet of 175's around so that more 3 car units are on Marches services.

 

[sd0733]

Theres a few of the ex DRS Pullman mk3s being refurbed at LNWR Crewe, one can be seen rubbed down in the yard at the moment, I believe these are the coaches for this service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Theres a few of the ex DRS Pullman mk3s being refurbed at LNWR Crewe, one can be seen rubbed down in the yard at the moment, I believe these are the coaches for this service.

Moved from Long Marston in April I assumed as did others that they were part of deal being financed by Welsh Government for extra Cambrian services but apparently not.

 

[merlodlliw]

My take on this is, the story was rushed out,due to a North Wales AM being concerned the 0634 ex Llandudno all stations to Manchester was being axed from Dec 13th, with the loco hauled only starting from Chester.
Some of his constituents from North Wales use this train for work.
ATW responded a new service was being considered ex Llandudno 0646 all stations to Crewe,however this train would not connect with the 0740 from Chester. The train being axed is a 3 car 175 which will transfer to the Manchester/South Wales run.
The extra 2K seats are simply one extra mark 3 carriage being multiplied by a weeks running, I don't see this loco hauled being an extra train, it is just replacing existing 158 & 175 runs.
Welcome yes of course, bit a direct Llandudno/Manchester is axed. ATW issued a press statement on Tuesday

“We can also confirm that we have been developing plans to re-time the 06:34 service from Llandudno to Manchester service to 06:46. “This service will run along the North Wales Coast to Crewe – linking in to a London and Manchester connection.”[/HTML]

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 2450 seats per week I imagine is the capacity of a 4-car Mk3 set times 5 days (each way).
As far as DfT is concerned that's all additional to the current capacity.
But most of this new capacity will be moved to the Cambrian.

 

[Welshman]

My take on this is, the story was rushed out,due to a North Wales AM being concerned the 0634 ex Llandudno all stations to Manchester was being axed from Dec 13th, with the loco hauled only starting from Chester.
Some of his constituents from North Wales use this train for work.
ATW responded a new service was being considered ex Llandudno 0646 all stations to Crewe,however this train would not connect with the 0740 from Chester.

Thank you for quoting the ATW press statement.


IMHO, an extra service at 0646 Llandudno to Crewe makes little sense.
For, although serving Llandudno, Deganwy, Abergele and Shotton, it will be only 20 minutes or so behind VT's 0636 off the Junction to Crewe & London Euston.

Secondly, what is the point in cancelling the 0634 from Llandudno to save a 175.1, and then having to find an extra set [presumably a 2xcar unit] for this new service? Better, surely, to use this "new" set to form a connection from Llandudno departing, say, about 0625, into the 0740 LHCS Chester to Manchester? Then, if it's needed at Crewe, it could take over the 0755 Chester-Crewe shuttle [which might be what the proposed new 0646 from Llandudno will do].

Better still, as suggested elsewhere in these columns, to start the LHCS back from Llandudno, and maintain the through service as now. Unless its maintenance schedule means it cannot be released from Crewe until around 0700, it could form an ECS movement along the coast, departing Crewe about 0505, or perhaps even run in passenger service, with the added bonus of providing an earlier westbound service along the coast than the present 0623 from Crewe/0646 from Chester.

Just a few thoughts, and always easier to plan from the comfort of my armchair with a coffee at hand!

 

[merlodlliw]

The 2450 seats per week I imagine is the capacity of a 4-car Mk3 set times 5 days (each way).
As far as DfT is concerned that's all additional to the current capacity.
But most of this new capacity will be moved to the Cambrian.

My understanding is they are counting just one Mark 3 standard carriage, X the number of runs per day X a week ,has its a four car plus DVT & 67,as opposed to 3 car 175s & 2 car 158s.

Better still, as suggested elsewhere in these columns, to start the LHCS back from Llandudno, and maintain the through service as now. Unless its maintenance schedule means it cannot be released from Crewe until around 0700, it could form an ECS movement along the coast, departing Crewe about 0505, or perhaps even run in passenger service, with the added bonus of providing an earlier westbound service along the coast than the present 0623 from Crewe/0646 from Chester.

Fully agree why not start it at Llandudno, the new 0646 to Crewe will just be a movement change of stock in the area. If my timings are correct, this 0646 will arrive Chester at 0750, ten minutes after the New Loco Hauled as departed, ATWs comment connection for Manchester in their press statement is smoke & Mirrors,what connection & where.

 

[northwichcat]

So is the unit being freed up going to be used to make Chester-Manchester half-hourly in both directions? The article seems to imply an additional service between Chester and Manchester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My understanding is they are counting just one Mark 3 standard carriage, X the number of runs per day X a week ,has its a four car plus DVT & 67,as opposed to 3 car 175s & 2 car 158s.

The DfT announcement says the extra seats are "across the morning and evening peak", so I don't think you can count the off-peak capacity.

So is the unit being freed up going to be used to make Chester-Manchester half-hourly in both directions? The article seems to imply an additional service between Chester and Manchester.

The suspicion is that the Llandudno 175 will be cascaded to the Marches, and at the bottom of the cascade an extra 158 will pop out for the Cambrian.
So no change to Chester-Manchester frequency.

 

[merlodlliw]

The DfT announcement says the extra seats are "across the morning and evening peak", so I don't think you can count the off-peak capacity.

I wonder what they call peaks,this has to include the middle Holyhead to Manchester run,

The suspicion is that the Llandudno 175 will be cascaded to the Marches, and at the bottom of the cascade an extra 158 will pop out for the Cambrian.
So no change to Chester-Manchester frequency.

Correct, remains hourly, the comment about Chester/Manchester refers to the 0740 becoming loco Haul, I have been told,it is ATWs intention to make all Manchester/South Wales 175 three car, well thats what ATW staff told SARPA last last Saturday.