Caught sitting in First Class Carriage - gave false address

[thor]

Thanks for your good wishes. If it wasnt for this forum I would have not given my self up.

Only reason i gave a wrong address is due to fact that i cannot have a criminal records against me in my job.

I just hope that i can manage to settle this outside of court to not get a criminal offense otherwise i will loose my job.

thanks again

 

[najaB]

Only reason i gave a wrong address is due to fact that i cannot have a criminal records against me in my job.

The sad thing is that giving the false details turned a byelaws offence which doesn't carry the risk of a criminal record into a RoRA offence which does. Where is the tragic irony emoticon when you need it?

I hope things work out for you.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks for your good wishes. If it wasnt for this forum I would have not given my self up.

Only reason i gave a wrong address is due to fact that i cannot have a criminal records against me in my job.

I just hope that i can manage to settle this outside of court to not get a criminal offense otherwise i will loose my job.

thanks again

At some point you may well need to send them a letter. I would recommend that you obtain legal advice before sending any such letter (if you can afford it) and/or ask for detailed advice from this forum. There are some very wise owls on here!

 

[bb21]

I really don't see how this thread ran for over a page. The situation has been overanalysed and overanalysed again. Phonebooks? Seriously? I doubt any TOC would go to such lengths to trace down one case.

It is simply impossible to tell what AGA would do in either case. There are pros and cons with either approach. I am glad that the OP has decided to hand himself in, as I suspect most of us would agree that it is the moral thing to do, so I wish you good luck in your endeavours. It is never too late to do the "right" thing.

As to those questioning the advice offered on this forum. The principle is simple. Everyone is entitled to help, whether they are actually guilty of something bad or not. If a poster is willing to help, he will. If not, he is free to ignore the pleas. What I believe most people will find is that someone who blatantly flouts the rules and blags about it gets publicly lynched every time without fail.

 

[MP33]

Speaking as a AGA 1st class season ticket holder, if you are thinking of doing it again. A fair number of the 1st class passengers are Network Rail senior managers and they are a right bunch of misery guts.

You can get on the wrong side of them by just turning your newspaper noisily.

 

[andykn]

Could the OP not just write to them notifying them of a change of address?

 

[Squaddie]

Don't be an idiot... You have got away with it.. Just learn your bloody lesson and forget about it, carry on about your day to day business. They have no means of linking you to the offence now. Only a complete clown would hand themselves in.

I doubt very much that the OP actually has any intention of handing himself in.

 

[GadgetMan]

Don't be an idiot... You have got away with it.. Just learn your bloody lesson and forget about it, carry on about your day to day business. They have no means of linking you to the offence now. Only a complete clown would hand themselves in.

Forget about it, get on with life. People have done much much worse. GA have more things to worry about.

All we have to do now is wait for someone starting a post saying "I randomly got a PF through my door and I didn't even travel" .... LOL

Not necessarily. Having been revenue staff myself I'd take it personally if a passenger tried to feed me bull****. How I dealt with it on the day would vary, if the passenger was a season ticket holder I'd give them a bit more wiggle room knowing it won't be hard to pick them up a second time if needed.

I would later carry out the required checks while completing the TIR, if they turned out to be false I would then go out of my way to have a second chat with said person. I was only a Guard so it was slightly more difficult as I would have to wait til I was allocated as Spare/Standby to go out on the hunt. Remeber it's not hard when you know their journey start/end points and rough times they're likely to travel. For an RPI its even easier as they are free to travel around as they please.

Having been involved in my previous TOCs revenue protection department I can assure you a fair effort goes into trying to track down people who provide false addresses, in most cases it isn't hard if they provide a post code with matching road name. There will be a reason they have that address memorised, the only incorrect bit is usually the door number.

A number of passengers will be on the TOCs system through buying tickets online, putting in complaints, delay repay/refund claims etc.

Magistrates also take a dim view of those that provide false addresses with a significantly higher fine.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

For the legal eagles on here. Given an RoRA offence carries a criminal record can it in theory be passed to the police and arrest warrants issued?

In theory? Yes, such an Offence could be prosecuted by the Police (actually, the CPS on advice of the Police), but, in practice, as the Police hadn't gathered the evidence, then the prospect is as adjacent to zero as you can get.
In practice, a ticketing Offence which extends beyond the few journeys might be handed to the British Transport Police (BTP), but as the BTP were not called to the scene in this incident, and it doesn't involve a more serious crime, then the prospect of that is also negligible.

I am in deep S***. I think i may just got to the ticket office and hand my self in!

It doesn't work that way. Ticket Office staff would have no ready means of dealing with your 'confession'. The situation you now find yourself in must be dealt with in writing. Perhaps you can compose a letter to an Investigations and Prosecutions Mananger yourself, or perhaps you would be better instructing a local solicitor (I can't estimate your capabilities, but with the comments you have made so far, I'll guess that you would benefit in the long term if you instructed a solicitor who deals with ordinary Criminal Defence work).
But now, your communication should be in writing at this stage. You should wait for a letter from the Company before making any further statement (true or false) to them.

I do have a season ticket. But the inspector didnt take the photocard number.

The address has not link to me at all.

Based on these two facts, then it is hard to see how the offence will be traced to you. But lets be realistic : a) there are probably other facts to consider (which may simplify the connection to yourself), and b) it is a matter of fact that a serious Offence has been committed, and so if the mind of an Investigations Officer does turn towards your incident, then they may, just may, put in some extra effort to try to locate you. I would anticipate that this is an intelligence-led decision, i.e. something that is done where repeated offences have been recorded. Only you will know whether you and the subject of the false ID are likely to appear as 'repeats'.

 

[jon0844]

I doubt very much that the OP actually has any intention of handing himself in.

Absolutely. I'd say zero chance.

 

[eastend43]

As always, DaveNewcastle gives really salient advice. I'll probably regret wading into this discussion as my input opens up another can of worms, but the OP's offence was sitting in first class when they had only paid for standard class (and probably paid more for their standard class season ticket than many of us spend each year on rail travel). Yes, it's an offence, yes there are penalties and yes they were wrong not to give an accurate name and address, but some of the comments here seem to be more like those that should be directed towards those who have deliberately set out to defraud rail companies by avoiding paying any fare.

 

[SussexMan]

Assuming the OP hasn't been in contact with the TOC at what point is the TOC going to realise that the address is not that of the person they stopped? Even if they check the address out properly before they write out any letter they will still have to write to the person at the address they gave. Many people are contactable at more than one address, many people will have moved and any databases they check will not be up-to-date etc.

So then there will be a waiting period and either the letter will come back "not known at this address" or just won't come back.

If it is returned as "not known at this address" then, assuming they are going to invest time into investigating (and we hear a lot of people saying on these forums that TOCs just want to have the most profitable outcome - hence out-of-court settlements) they have to start looking for the real address. Will they then start writing out to all the possible matches they come up with? By now, presumably quite a few weeks will have passed. Would CCTV still be available? Would the RPI still be able to remember who it was they stopped x weeks ago?

If the letter is not returned at all then what do they do next? Issue a summons at that address? Just because someone doesn't reply doesn't mean they don't live there - I'm sure many people don't reply to letters and bury heads etc.

 

[RPI]

If there's no response to the letter then a summons will be issued, if no response to that then the case will go to court in the absence of the defendant, was a correct date of birth given? If so then a minor spelling mistake will just be seen by the magistrate as a typo and may well see the op fined in their absence which then means that the court would be chasing them for fines, as soon as they come up on the radar then that's it! At this point the OP could make a statutory declaration and explain the reasons why they hadn't been notified of the court hearing which would mean throwing light on the fact that they provided false details. So no, you definitely haven't got away with it and your actions of ignoring it could well make it far worse! I've seen it happen so many times!

 

[thor]

Hi

Just to give an update.

First of all i dont appreciate people making assumptions that I havent given my self in. Why would i come on here tell you all that happened, ask for advice and based on that advice say i will give my self in - but lie about it? What benefit would that give me?

This morning i called the Prosecutions department and explained that i am in the process of moving address and therefore would like to give you my new address regarding the incident that happened yesterday.

Also they asked me if i was to get a conviction would that affect my job - i said yes!

He said someone will call me back and i may be let off with just a fine!

 

[Geronimo]

Also they asked me if i was to get a conviction would that affect my job - i said yes!
He said someone will call me back and i may be let off with just a fine!

I hope you are correct. On the other hand they might use that information as leverage to extract more revenue from a settlement. Impossible to tell.

 

[Crossover]

I hope you are correct. On the other hand they might use that information as leverage to extract more revenue from a settlement. Impossible to tell.

Or as a method to diffuse the situation and avoid the operator having to have a lengthy conversation about likely proceedings?

 

[bb21]

Hi

Just to give an update.

First of all i dont appreciate people making assumptions that I havent given my self in. Why would i come on here tell you all that happened, ask for advice and based on that advice say i will give my self in - but lie about it? What benefit would that give me?

This morning i called the Prosecutions department and explained that i am in the process of moving address and therefore would like to give you my new address regarding the incident that happened yesterday.

Also they asked me if i was to get a conviction would that affect my job - i said yes!

He said someone will call me back and i may be let off with just a fine!

You may have to just ignore those assumptions. It is not always possible to sway people. Everyone forms their own opinion on these matters.

Please keep us updated.

 

[CallySleeper]

This morning i called the Prosecutions department and explained that i am in the process of moving address and therefore would like to give you my new address.

So you lied further? That's a different story from the one you gave us previously.

 

[Fare-Cop]

So you lied further? That's a different story from the one you gave us previously.

As Sir Walter Scott wrote in Marmion.....

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!"

Nonetheless, it does appear that the OP has taken steps to face-up to the responsibility and we should commend him for that

 

[the sniper]

So you lied further? That's a different story from the one you gave us previously.

To be fair, if the OP has done what they've said and 'handed themselves in', I wouldn't hold that further, smaller lie against them.

 

[andykn]

To be fair, if the OP has done what they've said and 'handed themselves in', I wouldn't hold that further, smaller lie against them.

Yes, whilst there was a chance that the Operator might track the OP down for giving a false address in the first place, I think giving a correct address makes reduces the chance of them both looking into the previous address and also deciding it was fake to near zero.

 

[Ediswan]

Yes, whilst there was a chance that the Operator might track the OP down for giving a false address in the first place, I think giving a correct address makes reduces the chance of them both looking into the previous address and also deciding it was fake to near zero.

Between what is posted here and what the train company will know, joining the dots might not be so hard.

 

[andykn]

Between what is posted here and what the train company will know, joining the dots might not be so hard.

But why would they join the dots? Even if they look tomorrow and can find no trace of the OP at his originally given address what can they do next? But why would they bother, they have a valid address.

To prosecute beyond a reasonable doubt they'd have to either visit the address and get testimony the OP had never had that as an address or persuade him to admit it under caution.

 

[CallySleeper]

But why would they join the dots? Even if they look tomorrow and can find no trace of the OP at his originally given address what can they do next? But why would they bother, they have a valid address.

To prosecute beyond a reasonable doubt they'd have to either visit the address and get testimony the OP had never had that as an address or persuade him to admit it under caution.

It surely depends if having traced the original address with no positive match, and now having a new address, if the prosecution are able to see past "a change of address" and suggest a dud address was supplied intentionally. If the OP was really moving house then surely could have supplied the RPI with this information at the outset. It also helps of course to correspond these addresses to the one the ticket is registered to.

If, of course, the OP has now supplied the prosecution with his actual address, then a lot will ride on the specifics of letter which will arrive in a few months time.

 

[455driver]

The little lie about the change of address (very good ) I can well understand and the OP is willing to take the punishment on the chin so should be commended for that at least.

let he who is without sin etc!

 

[andykn]

It surely depends if having traced the original address with no positive match,

In 24 hours? And why would they try? Even if they draw a blank it doesn't mean the address is a dud, it's only if they send a letter and get it back that I would have thought they'd spend any time looking into it.

and now having a new address, if the prosecution are able to see past "a change of address" and suggest a dud address was supplied intentionally.
If the OP was really moving house then surely could have supplied the RPI with this information at the outset. It also helps of course to correspond these addresses to the one the ticket is registered to.

I can't see why anyone would sit down and give this a nanosecond's thought. They have a target and a valid address.

 

[DarloRich]

The little lie about the change of address (very good ) I can well understand and the OP is willing to take the punishment on the chin so should be commended for that at least.

Exactly. He has done the right thing - you can hardly blame the guy for trying to "manage the transition"!

let he who is without sin etc!

it appears many on here are entirely without sin

 

[SouthStand]

Interesting thread. Could the OP simply have paid the difference in fares and remained in first class?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Could the OP simply have paid the difference in fares and remained in first class?

Please see our Fares and Ticketing Guide.

Specifically, : 4.2.2 Excess procedures: Upgrade to First Class
and 4.3 First Class Supplements

There's often not a simple answer to a simple question.

 

[jon0844]

If the train is DOO then you can't upgrade on the train. Well, only if you find a friendly RPI on the train and ask before going in there.

I've bought tickets on DOO trains when I've only had validity part of the way. I knew if there wasn't any revenue officers, I'd need to alight and get the next train to continue. As I was still within the validity of my ticket, they had no problem doing so. Had I passed that point, I'm certain they wouldn't.