Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[southern442]

There is no comparison with the SWML. It is unlikely that many will travel from Reading to Shenfield or Abbey Wood as a single journey. The end to end journey time is less than 20 minutes than a Central Line trip from West Ruislip to Epping and that is on tube stock with longtitudonal seating and no toilets.
Just like the class 700s the trains are designed to move the maximum number of passengers from home county dormitory towns to their employment in central London on 100mph routes with a high frequency core section, stopping at every station. They might be new and shiny for a couple of years, but they are not luxury trains, (readers from the North should note).

Yes but my point was that I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of a 100 mile long end-to-end route as a metro.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes but my point was that I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of a 100 mile long end-to-end route as a metro.

That depends on your definition of a metro.

If it is a high frequency, high capacity railway system, then length doesn't matter.

 

[jopsuk]

anyone in their right mind would have kept the western terminus at Maidenhead...

 

[samuelmorris]

Amusingly I do the Shenfield to Reading run very occasionally. Being able to get on at Brentwood (a little closer) and sit on the same train dozing off all the way would be really useful. I compared the journey times, and with the changes on/off the SSL, waiting times for departures (especially off-peak) and so on, it actually works out pretty favourable, there's very little in it. Count me in as one of the people that might actually use crossrail to its full length!

Thameslink on the other hand, I wouldn't at the moment, but it's not insurmountable I suppose, despite working in London I've had to head out to Haywards Heath on it a few times - now I just need to find a reason to use the northern section

 

[AM9]

Yes but my point was that I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of a 100 mile long end-to-end route as a metro.

Both Thameslink and Crossrail are double-ended metro/outer suburban commuter lines. I don't expect the 700s to be that comfortable even if they do rattle along at 100mph on the MML.
The 700s interior doesn't look that different from stock that is already in metro service, see below:

Class 700

Class 376

Its true that the 700s will be shiny and new for a couple of years but take away the end doors on the Electrostars, put in DDA compliant facilities, and it doesn't look that different in passenger comfort.

 

[MCR247]

Both Thameslink and Crossrail are double-ended metro/outer suburban commuter lines. I don't expect the 700s to be that comfortable even if they do rattle along at 100mph on the MML.

TL isn't a metro service. The 700s looking like 376s surely goes against your argument since you wouldn't expect a 376 to run London - Brighton/Cambridge services?

 

[physics34]

Both Thameslink and Crossrail are double-ended metro/outer suburban commuter lines. I don't expect the 700s to be that comfortable even if they do rattle along at 100mph on the MML.
The 700s interior doesn't look that different from stock that is already in metro service, see below:

Class 700

Class 376

Its true that the 700s will be shiny and new for a couple of years but take away the end doors on the Electrostars, put in DDA compliant facilities, and it doesn't look that different in passenger comfort.

very disappointed with seat comfort. Considering these are gonna be used from Littlehampton to Bedford in the peak. Guaranteed numb-bum after a while.

 

[Class377/5]

As someone whose spent over an hour on the Class 700 standard seating, its more comfortable that a 377 for sure. First Class is another step up.

Getting tired of people judging the comfort of these trains without even being on one or barely spending any time on them.

 

[physics34]

As someone whose spent over an hour on the Class 700 standard seating, its more comfortable that a 377 for sure. First Class is another step up.

Getting tired of people judging the comfort of these trains without even being on one or barely spending any time on them.

okay okay okay. They just look low in cushioning. Like ive said before, in the 80s and 90s we have epb, vep, cig seating on and short medium distance journeys and compared to these they will be uncomfortable for sure.

 

[Bigfoot]

okay okay okay. They just look low in cushioning. Like ive said before, in the 80s and 90s we have epb, vep, cig seating on and short medium distance journeys and compared to these they will be uncomfortable for sure.

But we are in the 10s. And the stock will arrive closer to the 20s. Times change. Things move on. Demands differ after 30 years. Sometimes you have to live in the present rather than reminiscing in the past which will never occur again.

Whilst I agree with preserving examples of history, wanting to replicate it when the technology, demands and needs have all advanced or changed completely all to want to relive the past over again in modern stock is foolish.

There is very much an old=great new=bad feeling amongst most in the railway world. I say embrace good advances. Somethings like doo and automation are wrong from many angles both staff and passenger. But the fact that people seem to want the good old days, which were not that amazing in every aspect in truth (some things were great I do admit) they need to move on just like the rest of the world does without thinking.

 

[AM9]

TL isn't a metro service. The 700s looking like 376s surely goes against your argument since you wouldn't expect a 376 to run London - Brighton/Cambridge services?

Part of TL is a metro service, the sets without 1st class even had it written on their sides.
The Luton to London service is an all stopper and takes less than 50 minutes, that's less than some tube lines take. It takes even less to get from London out to Sutton.
The longer trips from London to Bedford and Brighton take around 1 hour. That's really an outer suburban service. A relatively small proportion of all journeys are from outside London to outside London (e.g. North to South), so the nature of the service is as I said, Metro and Outer suburban.

If 376s were made as 8 and 12 car EMUs and were capable of 100MPH, they could be used do the job. But that is missing the point. I said that the interiors didn't look that different. AFAIK, nobody has been on a journey in those seats with the same spacing, let alone with the seats worn down with a year or two's very heavy use. Judging on the trend of reducing the thickness of seat padding to enable reduced seat pitch, the experience say in 2019 will be quite shall we say 'metro like'.
I'm not romanticising about old style seating, - I've travelled many hours in GE AM5s and 8s in the six a side compartments having my shirt tails pulled out with every bounce. Just don't get too enthusiastic about new London commuter trains being more comfortable than the stock that they are replacing. The name of the game is capacity and reliability in intensive service at the most profitable cost.

 

[Domh245]

very disappointed with seat comfort. Considering these are gonna be used from Littlehampton to Bedford in the peak. Guaranteed numb-bum after a while.

Out of interest (and this has probably come up before) how many long distance commuters are there compared to short distance commuters? I doubt that many people who start at one of the terminii end up on the other side of the core.

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest (and this has probably come up before) how many long distance commuters are there compared to short distance commuters? I doubt that many people who start at one of the terminii end up on the other side of the core.

A few no doubt. I did St Albans to Croydon for a year or so, and the number of people I saw doing the same or more regularly was in single digits, compared to the 1000 or so who got off in London.

There is however a larger number of cross-core occasional travellers to the airports, and Brighton in summer.

Nevertheless, as has been said upthread, having sat in the 700 seats (repeatedly), they are much more comfortable than the 377s and 319s were when brand new.

 

[physics34]

Out of interest (and this has probably come up before) how many long distance commuters are there compared to short distance commuters? I doubt that many people who start at one of the terminii end up on the other side of the core.

But still littlehampton to st Pancras for example will be 2 hours.

 

[AM9]

But still littlehampton to st Pancras for example will be 2 jours.

Littlehampton passengers are a small proportion of the total traffic that the units will carry, as are the cross-London leisure and airport passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But we are in the 10s. And the stock will arrive closer to the 20s. Times change. Things move on. Demands differ after 30 years. Sometimes you have to live in the present rather than reminiscing in the past which will never occur again.

Whilst I agree with preserving examples of history, wanting to replicate it when the technology, demands and needs have all advanced or changed completely all to want to relive the past over again in modern stock is foolish.

There is very much an old=great new=bad feeling amongst most in the railway world. I say embrace good advances. Somethings like doo and automation are wrong from many angles both staff and passenger. But the fact that people seem to want the good old days, which were not that amazing in every aspect in truth (some things were great I do admit) they need to move on just like the rest of the world does without thinking.

I'm not complaining about the paucity of padding on recent train designs. It's the trend across the world, - in most metro system in the world, the seats have no padding or at best a covering the thickness of the average carpet. Seats are being designed for better posture, but the posterior bones are definitely taking the strain more now. New trains doesn't necessarily mean more seating comfort though so enthusiasm needs to be tempered until real in-service experience exists. Remember the 315 seat disaster?
What is important for most of the London lines is that capacity is provided, hence the move back to 2+2 seating, not to make more room for fat posteriors but allow better circulation and more standing room without clogging up doorways.

p.s. I am not a commuter, and I choose the times that I travel into London.

 

[physics34]

Littlehampton passengers are a small proportion of the total traffic that the units will carry, as are the cross-London leisure and airport passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not complaining about the paucity of padding on recent train designs. It's the trend across the world, - in most metro system in the world, the seats have no padding or at best a covering the thickness of the average carpet. Seats are being designed for better posture, but the posterior bones are definitely taking the strain more now. New trains doesn't necessarily mean more seating comfort though so enthusiasm needs to be tempered until real in-service experience exists. Remember the 315 seat disaster?
What is important for most of the London lines is that capacity is provided, hence the move back to 2+2 seating, not to make more room for fat posteriors but allow better circulation and more standing room without clogging up doorways.

p.s. I am not a commuter, and I choose the times that I travel into London.

but why is less padding used??. The only reason is cost! So passengers are having a less comfortable ride than they did on previous stock because the the toc's won't pay for better seating. This is what gets me. Why do longer distance trains have better seating? Because it's more comfortable. In my opinion littlehampton to east croydon or say Horsham to Luton airport is middle distance and so shouldn't have suburban seating.

 

[HSTEd]

Its not the cost of the padding, its the fact that padding has a non-zero thickness.
An inch on every seat back could easily add up to an entire row!

 

[ainsworth74]

Its not the cost of the padding, its the fact that padding has a non-zero thickness.
An inch on every seat back could easily add up to an entire row!

How about having some on the base? That's where I'd like to see a bit more padding not on the seat back.

 

[AM9]

How about having some on the base? That's where I'd like to see a bit more padding not on the seat back.

So what would TOCs like Govia get in return for their additional costs:

most of the passengers are metro or outer suburban commuters. Their only choices are drive to other railheads, buses or lump it.
harder seats last longer, just as many can remember the old MKIs with their fully sprung bench seats, we can also recall how unusable they were when the springs broke, or the wired edge supports started breaking through the wadding and then all that was between them and human legs was moquette!
although not welcomed by most, the modern seats do often have profiles designed for better posture and to keep adjacent passengers in their respective positions, so less slouching across the double seats.

 

[physics34]

So what would TOCs like Govia get in return for their additional costs:

most of the passengers are metro or outer suburban commuters. Their only choices are drive to other railheads, buses or lump it.
harder seats last longer, just as many can remember the old MKIs with their fully sprung bench seats, we can also recall how unusable they were when the springs broke, or the wired edge supports started breaking through the wadding and then all that was between them and human legs was moquette!
although not welcomed by most, the modern seats do often have profiles designed for better posture and to keep adjacent passengers in their respective positions, so less slouching across the double seats.

Agree with posture argument but they don't have to be so stingy with a bit of memory foam!

 

[AM9]

but why is less padding used??. The only reason is cost! So passengers are having a less comfortable ride than they did on previous stock because the the toc's won't pay for better seating. This is what gets me. Why do longer distance trains have better seating? Because it's more comfortable. In my opinion littlehampton to east croydon or say Horsham to Luton airport is middle distance and so shouldn't have suburban seating.

The 700s are a compromise design to get as many passengers through the core as possible. To do this, they will:
equip the core to carry up to 24 trains per hour. This is probably the busiest mainline section of track in the country so the only way is to use ATO and all trains to have the same acceleration and braking dynamics.
extended all trains to the maximum possible for the route, i.e. 8 coaches for the pure metro services and 12 coaches for the rest.
All that's left is to maximise the capacity of each train. That means compact seating (thin padding & smaller pitch), more standing area (narrower seats and 2+2 seats to make wider gangways).
When you account for all of the above, the end result is trains like the 700s, - however inconvenient it is for the handful of passengers who want to go between Horsham and Luton every day.

Out of curiosity, just what sort of train do you think should be provided for the benefit of passengers going on that Odyssey from Horsham to Luton?

 

[Class377/5]

The 700s are a compromise design to get as many passengers through the core as possible. To do this, they will:
equip the core to carry up to 24 trains per hour. This is probably the busiest mainline section of track in the country so the only way is to use ATO and all trains to have the same acceleration and braking dynamics.
extended all trains to the maximum possible for the route, i.e. 8 coaches for the pure metro services and 12 coaches for the rest.
All that's left is to maximise the capacity of each train. That means compact seating (thin padding & smaller pitch), more standing area (narrower seats and 2+2 seats to make wider gangways).
When you account for all of the above, the end result is trains like the 700s, - however inconvenient it is for the handful of passengers who want to go between Horsham and Luton every day.

Out of curiosity, just what sort of train do you think should be provided for the benefit of passengers going on that Odyssey from Horsham to Luton?

Its not narrowing seats compared to current stock but the sides of the train have been made thinner to allow for greater space inside the train.

 

[edwin_m]

Its not narrowing seats compared to current stock but the sides of the train have been made thinner to allow for greater space inside the train.

That would be welcome, although the Mk3-derived EMUs seem to have much thinner bodyshells than most of the stock produced since.

Maybe the reason there is so little padding in the seats is because they've put it all in the timetables instead?

 

[physics34]

Its not narrowing seats compared to current stock but the sides of the train have been made thinner to allow for greater space inside the train.

make the side thinner to make extra space inside the train, but have 2x2 seating? They seem very spacious..... for as many standing passengers as possible!

 

[Class377/5]

That would be welcome, although the Mk3-derived EMUs seem to have much thinner bodyshells than most of the stock produced since.

Maybe the reason there is so little padding in the seats is because they've put it all in the timetables instead?

Remember that due to changes in fire regulations has affected the padding used. Simply put the old stuff isn't allowed now.

Ah for 2018 padding should be interesting in regaurds to the timetable

 

[physics34]

The 700s are a compromise design to get as many passengers through the core as possible. To do this, they will:
equip the core to carry up to 24 trains per hour. This is probably the busiest mainline section of track in the country so the only way is to use ATO and all trains to have the same acceleration and braking dynamics.
extended all trains to the maximum possible for the route, i.e. 8 coaches for the pure metro services and 12 coaches for the rest.
All that's left is to maximise the capacity of each train. That means compact seating (thin padding & smaller pitch), more standing area (narrower seats and 2+2 seats to make wider gangways).
When you account for all of the above, the end result is trains like the 700s, - however inconvenient it is for the handful of passengers who want to go between Horsham and Luton every day.

Out of curiosity, just what sort of train do you think should be provided for the benefit of passengers going on that Odyssey from Horsham to Luton?

in theory even if there is just ONE passenger who travels everyday from Horsham to Luton the train should be at that comfort level, seeing as the train will provide so many travel opportunities...... A little overkill on comfort wouldn't be a issue.... i mean we've got reasonably comfy 377/3s on vic to caterhams for example!

 

[Haydn1971]

in theory even if there is just ONE passenger who travels everyday from Horsham to Luton the train should be at that comfort level, seeing as the train will provide so many travel opportunities...... A little overkill on comfort wouldn't be a issue.... i mean we've got reasonably comfy 377/3s on vic to caterhams for example!

One question... How do you know it's uncomfortable, indeed, one member has said upthread that he's experienced the new seats (in the factory I'm guessing) staying they were comfy. Thickness of cushion does not guarantee comfort

 

[physics34]

One question... How do you know it's uncomfortable, indeed, one member has said upthread that he's experienced the new seats (in the factory I'm guessing) staying they were comfy. Thickness of cushion does not guarantee comfort

 

[jon0844]

maybe the reason there is so little padding in the seats is because they've put it all in the timetables instead?

boom!

 

[AM9]

in theory even if there is just ONE passenger who travels everyday from Horsham to Luton the train should be at that comfort level, seeing as the train will provide so many travel opportunities...... A little overkill on comfort wouldn't be a issue.... i mean we've got reasonably comfy 377/3s on vic to caterhams for example!

Well maybe if comfort is more important than time to you, it would be better to get to London by trains that you know are all right, then use EMT meridians to get to Luton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agree with posture argument but they don't have to be so stingy with a bit of memory foam!

How would memory foam work. It's expensive anyway and is designed for long periods of same shapes. Maybe you could take your own cushion with you.