Flickering Signal

[Tomnick]

Thanks - a fair point! I'd still have expected it to have been reported by a driver by now if it's flickering as badly and consistently as the OP suggests.

 

[WestRiding]

This is simple, if there was a fault one of the many drivers would have reported it, and if not that signal, they would have reported that the signal in rear of it was intermitantly showing danger, which happens when an aspect is out on the signal ahead. A RT3185 FORM would be completed with the signaller and the relevant fault team dispatched. Until then, trains would be cautioned as needed.

 

[455driver]

A signal should never be without any aspect showing (i.e. appearing 'black') - that's the point.

Yes they do, just look at any LED signal when its flashing!

 

[Marklund]

Yep, it'd almost certainly have been reported by now if it really was going black with any regularity, either because a driver would've observed it directly, or reacted to the effect on the signal in rear! It could well be repeated in the box anyway, it's just not always the case.

Lamp Proving Relays (ECR)'s are slow to drop, so if it is only a quick flicker, then they may not put the signal in rear back.

LED light engines have been replacing standard signal heads SL35's for a while now, so although they look like "normal" signal heads, they may well be LEDs now. (The green aspect is the give away, as it's very much a different shade, despite what was promised).

If the OP is still concerned, call 08457 11 41 41 and make a complaint to the NR helpdesk.

 

[OxtedL]

If you read each of the OP's posts (#13 in particular), it's clear that the flickering aspect was observed by the naked eye.

I'm not quite sure that post 13 says that?

What is worrying me is that the curve visible in the background of the photos is in reality a good way out of the station. I think the signal itself is a few hundred metres out of the station at least. I'm personally not sure to what extent this means you can reliably see flickering without a camera.

Maybe someone who knows Deepdene better than I can allay my fears.

 

[Railsigns]

I'm not quite sure that post 13 says that?

The final words in post 13 (surrounded by parentheses) tell me that the OP has personally observed the signal in question, possibly on numerous occasions, while waiting for his or her train.

 

[OxtedL]

The final words in post 13 (surrounded by parentheses) tell me that the OP has personally observed the signal in question, possibly on numerous occasions, while waiting for his or her train.

Cool. They don't tell me that with any comparable certainty, but I suppose they might cover it for you. (EDIT: I don't disagree that they've been there regularly, though.)

I've found pictures of Dorking Deepdene looking east (I believe) that I think support my fears that the signal is a bit far for easy viewing of flickering, here and here. I await the panel's response.

Perhaps I am clinging too strongly to a feeling that we haven't yet shown this to be photos/films not telling an accurate story once again.

 

[Deepgreen]

My purpose in posting this thread was to ascertain whether anyone else has witnessed the same fault anywhere else as I refer to here. So far the focus has been on trying to discredit my observations and pick holes in my 'report'. Just for the record, I am a railway professional of 35 years, I observed the signal flickering with my naked eye before I photographed it (that was the reason I photographed in the first place), and the signal is approximately 150m east of the platform at Dorking Deepdene, which is close enough for it to be very obvious to the naked eye when it dims/flickers/goes out.
I also stated that it is a traditional tungsten filament signal head (not LED, which is also clear from the photos).
So - back to the point - has anyone else witnessed the same thing? The supplementary question was about the lack of response from NR to so many e-mails or fault reporting form submissions.

 

[68000]

I can confirm that your report is now on FMS in Network Rail

 

[Deepgreen]

68000 - many thanks. It will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

 

[matchmaker]

Sorry but that's not correct.

Approach lit signals.
Flashing yellows
Flashing greens
And the emergency signals at RAF valley!

Also some signals in loops which are not lit unless the loop line is being used - there are examples at Alloa East and Slochd.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just had a call from NR to say they will be investigating - progress!

 

[Tomnick]

Also some signals in loops which are not lit unless the loop line is being used - there are examples at Alloa East and Slochd.

...which are approach lit signals, as above!

Glad to hear that Network Rail has responded anyway. Hopefully the OP will keep us up to date with their findings .

 

[tsr]

I can confirm that I have not had any eyewitness reports of this signal notably flickering, and I would have thought at least one person would have mentioned it to me by now, bearing in mind how many people I know who use the line (as well as myself, to a lesser extent). I will certainly keep an eye out for any reports. I have noticed some very minor, intermittent fading of lamps at other signals under the control of Reigate SB, but only when I have been right next to them - I've certainly seen nothing of note.

My first thought was that there was some reflected light from local buildings or parked cars which, combined with a dirty lens or dimmed bulb, could lead to the appearance of an outage. However, I have considered the layout of lineside trees and I think this is somewhat unlikely. Therefore, I'm interested to know what's causing the issue you've noticed, as I suspect there could be a combination of other weather conditions and some minor maintenance issue or other. But, as I say, I haven't heard a squeak about any issues from anyone else in the area. If they mention it, I will call NR, to add information to their record.

For the record of those who have posted but who are unsure, this section of line is served by DMUs running via the Dorking area between Reading & Redhill/Gatwick Airport. These services run from early morning until just after midnight, with variable peak-hour frequencies but an average of around 2tph (excluding lower Sunday frequencies); there are minimal numbers of freight trains and a few weekday RHTT paths. Heading Eastbound, the section of track has no operational points or junctions until the little-used engineers' sidings in the Betchworth area, and no signals in the immediate vicinity with flashing aspects.

 

[notadriver]

Since the abolition of trains which have opening windows and DMUs with forward views (apart from the loco hauled slam door stock) it must be difficult for passengers to see what's on the track beyond what they see at stations. Is this a good or bad thing ?

 

[Marklund]

I also stated that it is a traditional tungsten filament signal head (not LED, which is also clear from the photos).

Remember that "traditional tungsten filament signal head"s can actually contain LED light engines...

 

[455driver]

Remember that "traditional tungsten filament signal head"s can actually contain LED light engines...

These are the best ones in my opinion which is why they will be replaced with those crappy LED heads over time.

 

[Ediswan]

Remember that "traditional tungsten filament signal head"s can actually contain LED light engines...

That data sheet quotes "Average conversion time for a 4 Aspect signal is less than 15 minutes.". Is anybody here able to make an estimate of the total cost of such a replacment ? There will man-hours (for want of a better term) doing the paperwork. Add more human time and equipment costs involved gaining physical access. Then there are always industry-specific costs, which are outside my area of expertise.

 

[Marklund]

15 minutes? Yes, maybe to physically install them, but that's not including testing.

Costs? They were mainly programmed for the next maintenance schedule, so labour charge wise, very little, as the shift was paid for anyway.

 

[Llanigraham]

All the bulbs were replaced with LED's in our semaphores on a "as needed" basis, either on a standard testing roster or when a bulb went, so no extra cost.

 

[Marklund]

They're different from the Light Engines.
I've yet to see an SL35 in an Adlake lamp case, although happy to be proved wrong. Plus the Light Engine doesn't have a back LED, (the ballast resistor is there) it only "shines" forward.

Semaphore LED conversions usually are of the whole lamp case, with a Unipart/Dorman unit. This takes some time, especially with the age of some of the lamp cases bolts.

 

[Hassocks5489]

A couple of photos have already been linked in an earlier post; but if it's of interest, I've attached here two more photos I took on 29th March this year, mainly for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the area and layout. Obviously I was specifically photographing the train, but the signal in question is visible in the distance. It's just beyond what I think is the bridge over the Dorking-Horsham line. Signalling is not my area of expertise so I can't offer any comments on the situation under discussion.

 

[Ediswan]

All the bulbs were replaced with LED's in our semaphores on a "as needed" basis, either on a standard testing roster or when a bulb went, so no extra cost.

I apologise. In my line of business, marketing information usually hides costs and over-complicated implementation plans tend further to bloat the final bill.

 

[Harbon 1]

Sorry to bump this topic slightly, but it is definitely possible to capture a photo of a standard signal which appears to not be showing an aspect.

I found this clearing out my camera for my holiday this morning:

And that signal was definitely working all the time I was stood testing the light

 

[TDK]

On the Chilterns the signals green aspects flicker regularly, we were told about this and it was down to some sort of reset, the signals concerned were all SL10 filament signals and it is common knowledge that they flick to black and back only for a split second. This is probably the same scenario. Is to OP a driver or a railway employee? I can understand the OP's concerns but if this is normal and NR investigate it maybe it is a waste of resources.

 

[tsr]

On the Chilterns the signals green aspects flicker regularly, we were told about this and it was down to some sort of reset, the signals concerned were all SL10 filament signals and it is common knowledge that they flick to black and back only for a split second. This is probably the same scenario. Is to OP a driver or a railway employee? I can understand the OP's concerns but if this is normal and NR investigate it maybe it is a waste of resources.

I am not sure of the exact investigations, if any, undertaken so far by NR, but I have not heard about any issues sighted by local train crews. There have been numerous delays and a fair bit of congestion in the area controlled by Reigate Signal Box over the last few days due to a problem with various lineside/SPT telephones and a level crossing becoming faulty just outside that area - near Ash. Therefore, drivers will have probably had some variation against the usual signals shown during punctual service, and any anomalies, changes or problems with any aspects shown will perhaps have been more readily noticed, as well as any issues with green aspects shown. But there's been no news about any problems with the signal lamps themselves! I would, therefore, suggest this is most likely such a well-known issue that everyone has ignored it.

 

[infobleep]

It's interesting to note that all the recent problems seem to be ignored by National Rail Enquiries as in no reasons seem to ever be given. Perhaps the line isn't important enough or the problems are too minor.

 

[Railsigns]

On the Chilterns the signals green aspects flicker regularly, we were told about this and it was down to some sort of reset, the signals concerned were all SL10 filament signals and it is common knowledge that they flick to black and back only for a split second.

The signalling on the Chiltern line is all fairly recent, so any colour light signals will almost certainly be fitted with SL35 lamps, if not of the LED type. I don't even know what an SL10 lamp is - it isn't mentioned in BS 469 : 1995.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's interesting to note that all the recent problems seem to be ignored by National Rail Enquiries as in no reasons seem to ever be given. Perhaps the line isn't important enough or the problems are too minor.

What?
What has "National Rail Enquiries" got to do with the the "hardware"; it is a ticket and timetable website?

 

[swt_passenger]

What?
What has "National Rail Enquiries" got to do with the the "hardware"; it is a ticket and timetable website?

I think this was referring to the bit in tsr's above post about the 'numerous delays and fair bit of congestion'; i.e. they were not reported by NRES.