Tour de France Alterations

[yorkie]

The loco-hauled Liverpool-Scarboroughs are struggling to keep time today. 0622 ex Liverpool was 16 late into Scarborough,

This was because it got stuck behind the Huddersfield-Leeds local (as usual) which was 10 minutes late (the stoppers are always late, but later today due to the crowds no doubt!), this mean it lost its path and had to wait for the single platform for Malton. So it's arguably not a case of the train struggling to keep to time.

but started back on time at 0950.
However, it is now 40 late at Warrington after losing time through York and Manchester.

It had to wait for a platform at York due to an ex-Newcastle TPE occupying the platform. When it finally departed, the delayed ex-Middlesbrough train which calls additionally at Garforth got underway around the same time, and the signallers gave that priority. Looks like it had to wait a long time to cross the entire layout at Manchester Piccadilly (not an uncommon occurrence for Liverpool-bound trains) and was further delayed by other delayed trains.

 

[CallySleeper]

I'd also like to know how Northern have "increased capacity by 50%". Did they just attach a 153 which happened to be spare onto a 156?

 

[Andyh82]

Yes, the TPE logo hauled service to Scarborough mid afternoon was altered to not call at Leeds, running direct from Huddersfield to York as it was already about half an hour late

All TPE services I noticed were double units.

Sadly Northern have got a lot of flack, must be a thankless task working on their twitter feed, I bet people resign after 3 months.

 

[yorksrob]

It will be a crying shame if the TOC's get flak. It was very good to see them doing something so proactive. I even managed to incorporate the TPE loco hauled into my journey to the rugby, and very impressed I was too.

Well done, more of this sort of thing please.

 

[47802]

It will be a crying shame if the TOC's get flak. It was very good to see them doing something so proactive. I even managed to incorporate the TPE loco hauled into my journey to the rugby, and very impressed I was too.

Well done, more of this sort of thing please.

Why Northern Rail are crap, Public transport provison generally in Yorkshire is not good enough, and yes a lot isn't the fault of the TOC but ultimately nobody forced them to bid for the franchise. If you carn't stand the heat get out of the kitchen

The Women interviewed on Calender news handled it quite well, although if I had interviewed her I would have ripped her to shreds

 

[yorksrob]

Why Northern Rail are crap, Public transport provison generally in Yorkshire is not good enough, and yes a lot isn't the fault of the TOC but ultimately nobody forced them to bid for the franchise. If you carn't stand the heat get out of the kitchen

The Women interviewed on Calender news handled it quite well, although if I had interviewed her I would have ripped her to shreds

Because they, or any other TOC might decide not to bother at all next time and stick with the standard "trains are expected to be busier than usual because of xxxx. Travel on another day instead" line, which frankly must be a lot easier to organise.

For goodness sake, rip the powers that be to shreads about the status quo, not when they
're actually trying to do something about it !

 

[hassaanhc]

Why Northern Rail are crap, Public transport provison generally in Yorkshire is not good enough, and yes a lot isn't the fault of the TOC but ultimately nobody forced them to bid for the franchise. If you carn't stand the heat get out of the kitchen

The Women interviewed on Calender news handled it quite well, although if I had interviewed her I would have ripped her to shreds

Whoever bidded would have their hands tied regarding total amount of rolling stock, if DaFT are not willing to order new diesel trains when there is clearly a shortage then what can the franchise do? :roll:

 

[Segedunum]

This was because it got stuck behind the Huddersfield-Leeds local (as usual) which was 10 minutes late (the stoppers are always late, but later today due to the crowds no doubt!), this mean it lost its path and had to wait for the single platform for Malton. So it's arguably not a case of the train struggling to keep to time.

It had to wait for a platform at York due to an ex-Newcastle TPE occupying the platform. When it finally departed, the delayed ex-Middlesbrough train which calls additionally at Garforth got underway around the same time, and the signallers gave that priority. Looks like it had to wait a long time to cross the entire layout at Manchester Piccadilly (not an uncommon occurrence for Liverpool-bound trains) and was further delayed by other delayed trains.

The 1035 Southampton XC was placed in front of it at York too.

 

[47802]

Whoever bidded would have their hands tied regarding total amount of rolling stock, if DaFT are not willing to order new diesel trains when there is clearly a shortage then what can the franchise do? :roll:

Of course they would but they all had the option not to bid, then the Government would have had to run it themselves, or change the franchise.

But instead Northern choose to run it because regardless they would still probably make some money out of it as would the others, which OK that's fine that's how the capitalist economy works, but if the product is crap they deserve grief they get in my book.

 

[northernchris]

Why Northern Rail are crap, Public transport provison generally in Yorkshire is not good enough, and yes a lot isn't the fault of the TOC but ultimately nobody forced them to bid for the franchise. If you carn't stand the heat get out of the kitchen
The Women interviewed on Calender news handled it quite well, although if I had interviewed her I would have ripped her to shreds

If that was the case, nobody would run the franchise as all operators would face a shortage of trains. And it wasn't the poor woman's fault trains were so overcrowded.

I was in Leeds today around 1400 and it was still very busy then. Many services had additional carriages on and there was even an additional 1500 departure to Carlisle formed of 150+158 in addition to the 1449 service. Where they got the crew from I've no idea as it wasn't a service which was listed in the temporary timetable so looked to be a last minute addition. However they were some seemingly odd workings (although there were no doubt reasons behind them) such as the Huddersfield stopper being formed of a 2 car 144 whilst a 142+150 were parked up and according to the screens had no service allocated.

It must have been difficult for all involved to estimate the volume of the crowds, where they were wanting to travel to/from and at what time. Northern, TPE and East Coast have all provided additional capacity compared to a normal Saturday and given their limited resources did a bloody good job of keeping Yorkshire moving

 

[yorksrob]

Of course they would but they all had the option not to bid, then the Government would have had to run it themselves, or change the franchise.

But instead Northern choose to run it because regardless they would still probably make some money out of it as would the others, which OK that's fine that's how the capitalist economy works, but if the product is crap they deserve grief they get in my book.

Well, there is still time for everyone to respond to the Governments rotten consultation and tell them exactly what they think of how they specify the service. They may not listen, but it can't be any more futile than letting rip on a forum.

 

[Andyh82]

Looks like East Coast provided many more services between Leeds and Harrogate than was expected in the timetable.

With the benefit of hindsight, Northern probably should have run all services on the Harrogate line with loco hauled stock today, freeing up DMUs to ensure all services into Leeds from elsewhere this morning were double units, so at least so the public can see that more capacity was being provided, even if it still wasn't enough.

I think it just annoys the public when they commute every day during the week on a double unit and then turned up this morning to a single unit, it winds them up regardless of the logistics involved.

Services outside of Yorkshire would therefore be short formed as a result, but it would be less of a PR disaster if shoppers in Liverpool or somewhere were disrupted on this occasion.

Could East Coast have helped out more, do they have spare HSTs on a Sunday? How about Crosscountry's HSTs that are famously underused?

 

[6Gman]

Surely one of the problems here is that the Tour de France visiting Yorkshire is unprecedented and it's therefore very, very difficult to estimate demand accurately.

Had they grossly overprovided they'd doubtless have been savaged for that too!

[I was involved in planning trains for the Papal visit in 1982 - boy, did we waste thousands on running empty trains ]

 

[yorksrob]

Well, thats the thing. The regional network is a week round network-something I don't think the powers that be appreciate from their consultation. Ultimately, there are only so many spare sets of mk 2's and mk 3's available for the main line these days, and many of those were in use today.

 

[ash39]

Not sure what's happened to the last 67 turn of the day. Showing as cancelled between leeds and harrogate, but not looking like making it to york either!

 

[yorksrob]

Surely one of the problems here is that the Tour de France visiting Yorkshire is unprecedented and it's therefore very, very difficult to estimate demand accurately.

Had they grossly overprovided they'd doubtless have been savaged for that too!

[I was involved in planning trains for the Papal visit in 1982 - boy, did we waste thousands on running empty trains ]

As someone who was nowhere near here in those days, from the articles that I've read, history has judged the papal visit trains to be a resounding success (empty or not !).

 

[sd0733]

Tpe were also handing out free bottles of water stations. Was in Leeds and despite the queuing all seemed to be pretty well organised. Got stuck for a40 minutes at Huddersfield with no Leeds bound trains approx 10:15 due to a Northern unit having an operational incident at Mirfield.
Came back on the TPe 47s to Liverpool which was busy but not crazily so, left Leeds 30odd down but arrival was about 17 late into Liverpool.
For anyone who's interested in such things the DRS staff were telling people that 47813 will be out tomorrow instd of 841 as that has an electrical problem.

 

[12CSVT]

As someone who was nowhere near here in those days, from the articles that I've read, history has judged the papal visit trains to be a resounding success (empty or not !).

Didn't British Rail management contact every Catholic church in the country to find out average attendance figures in order to work out how many extra trains to run ?
I also read that the day the Pope visited York was one of the busiest days ever at York station (the crowds / queues being comparable with Leeds today).

 

[yorkie]

Feel free to post your experiences in the Special Yorkshire services Saturday 5th July 2014 thread (not this thread ) Thanks!

If you want to post your plans for tomorrow, use the Special Yorkshire services for Tour de France Sunday 6th July 2014 thread.

 

[yorksrob]

Didn't British Rail management contact every Catholic church in the country to find out average attendance figures in order to work out how many extra trains to run ?

I've no idea, but if that were the case, that was some pretty good legwork !

I also read that the day the Pope visited York was one of the busiest days ever at York station (the crowds / queues being comparable with Leeds today).

Yes, I read that too !

 

[jopsuk]

Police estimate that there were 2 million fans on the route yesterday.

 

[47802]

If that was the case, nobody would run the franchise as all operators would face a shortage of trains. And it wasn't the poor woman's fault trains were so overcrowded.

I was in Leeds today around 1400 and it was still very busy then. Many services had additional carriages on and there was even an additional 1500 departure to Carlisle formed of 150+158 in addition to the 1449 service. Where they got the crew from I've no idea as it wasn't a service which was listed in the temporary timetable so looked to be a last minute addition. However they were some seemingly odd workings (although there were no doubt reasons behind them) such as the Huddersfield stopper being formed of a 2 car 144 whilst a 142+150 were parked up and according to the screens had no service allocated.

It must have been difficult for all involved to estimate the volume of the crowds, where they were wanting to travel to/from and at what time. Northern, TPE and East Coast have all provided additional capacity compared to a normal Saturday and given their limited resources did a bloody good job of keeping Yorkshire moving

I would disagree, yes its probably not easy to predict demand, but not like this thing happened at short notice, they have had plenty of time to plan for it, and I don't think you need to be a Mastermind to work out that with the start in Leeds you were then going to get very high demand with people wanting to go to Harrogate for the finish.

Yes Northern made some effort but the question is was it enough?

 

[theblackwatch]

Equally, the passengers have to plan for it. If there are you and 10000 others wanting to get from A to B, then it should be pretty obvious you are going to have to wait your turnfor a while. The Harrogate line has never seen such an intensive service as it did yesterday - 4 trains per hour inclusing two that were between 6 and 8 coaches long, something that wouldn't have even been possible 2 years ago. Up to 11.xx there was no 'queue' for Harrogate, and by the time the 14.36 left, the queue was only 15-20 minutes long according to a friend who caught that service.

 

[northernchris]

Yes Northern made some effort but the question is was it enough?

There were extra trains, strengthened services and additional staff at many stations close to the TdF route. All Harrogate line services which were DMU operated were in pairs and I suspect platform lengths at most stations on the line prevented even longer trains running. The Airedale line also had additional services, and Skipton bound services were running at full capacity early morning but as the signalling on the line is quite poor it would have been difficult to squeeze in anything else.

However running 2 car pacers on the Huddersfield, Knottingley and Sheffield services was something Northern deserve some criticism for

 

[Max]

The 1013 Doncaster to Sheffield isn't much fun. A 2 car pacer turned up and I'd say c.150 people were left behind en route. Fair enough, Northern don't have unlimited resources but if I were a train planner I'd have been targeting this train.

 

[BantamMenace]

Is it still true that XC have not put on anything extra today? Going to be bedlam at York for people boarding Sheffield bound trains. I pray to god that they've atleast doubled them all up or have a couple of HSTs ready to shuttle. Not to mention they'll leave York full and then disappoint those in leeds wanting to get to Sheffield.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a shame Northern weren't able to provide extra services on the Ilkley route. I caught the 08:26 from Baildon & that was rammed on arriving, and with the platform all but full some people were left behind to wait for the next service. It took over ten minutes to get away from Baildon, and another 5 from Guiseley so it landed 15 late. I was also surprised that Northern hadn't staffed the station (well at least as far as I could tell as we came from the bridge & not the car park entrance). So quite a lot of people got a free ride towards Ilkley as there was no revenue block for arriving services.

On the way back Northern had set up a queuing system around the bus station, and having tried (and failed) for the 14:51 return journey we ended up with a wait of around 45 minutes to get a service. Not bad, but I can't help but think that the queue should have been arranged to enter the station by the ticket office rather than halfway up platform 1. There were plenty of revenue staff around, but it was a little chaotic at times especially as services pulled in & people were scrambling for tickets.

 

[PhilipW]

I'd also like to know how Northern have "increased capacity by 50%". Did they just attach a 153 which happened to be spare onto a 156?

I presume that there are quite a number of 142s and 150s not being used on Merseyside because of the Huyton blockade.

I would like to think that they all have been transferred to Yorkshire for the weekend. As to whether they have been or not, I have no idea.

 

[JonathanH]

I presume that there are quite a number of 142s and 150s not being used on Merseyside because of the Huyton blockade.

I would like to think that they all have been transferred to Yorkshire for the weekend. As to whether they have been or not, I have no idea.

Similarly, there were two 142s and a 150 in the sidings at Stockport yesterday but we have to accept that operationally you can't just redistribute trains without a lot of planning and further stretching of staff.

 

[12CSVT]

However running 2 car pacers on the Huddersfield, Knottingley and Sheffield services was something Northern deserve some criticism for

Given that they had already diverted resources to what were predicted to be the busiest routes, what else were they expected to do ?

And with the privatised railway, commandeering loads of DMUs from other TOCs for the weekend isn't an option like under British Rail.